Vital - Kenpom AAC POY (thus far)

[SubbaBub]

Huh? What eras would Vital be our starting shooting guard in?

Assuming you didn't have two primary SG recruits at the same time.

2009 FF team.
2004 NC team if Gordon wasn't there.
2011 NC team if he were ahead of Bazz on class.
2014 NC team if Boat wasn't there.

1999 would have beem tough because we didn't play with a true shooting guard. RIP was more of a 3 with Moore and KEA as a dual point guard. But he could have filled KEA's spot despite that fact being an afront to the purists around here.

CV was a quintessential JC kind of guy. Do doubt he would have done as well if not better under JC.

 

[DaveHuskiesFan]

Some of those stats may be skewed by 1) who they play with (RB% specifically) and 2) how the teams were taught to play (Stl %).

Dyson played with three bigs who could rebound better than anyone Vital plays with on the current team. Also, Dysons UConn teams played defense more to funnel the players at Thabeet which wasn’t really as conducive to steals IMO.

3pt % got Vital was only significantly better their respective freshman and Junior years. And even then Dyson was on extremely low volume his Junior year.

FG% Dyson and Vital split two years each and while I haven’t run it I imagine the overall isn’t significant. 39.0% vs 40.1%.

Also, don’t forget Dyson played a much harder schedule especially his Jr and Sr years.

Dyson was a career 31.8% 3PT shooter form a much closer line. Vital is 35.2%. I'd consider that significant.

Dyson was 42.3% from 2 point shots. Vital is 46.2%. I'd consider that significant as well.

FT% dyson was 73.5%, Vital is 82.9%. i'd consider that significant.

True shooting % Dyson was 50.55% and Vital is 56.6%. I'd consider that significant.

Dyson had higher assist rates, but also a higher turnover rate. I do think Vital overall, is a significantly better player. And this is the worst shooting year of his career so it's similar in that regard (Dyson's senior year was also his worst shooting year interestingly enough).

 

[DaveHuskiesFan]

Well please don't put Anderson in this neither of the other 2 are the shooters Rashad was, especially clutch wise but who was. I will give you though that Dysons range wasn't great but again, they were very similar in so many ways. He was a set shooter like CV so the first jump in distance may not have hurt him but where they are now could have not sure.

The jump from Dyson to Vital is more than the jump from Vital to Rashad when comparing 3pt%. And thats considering he's shooting from much further back as mentioned above. But yes, Rashad is the best shooter in UConn history IMO (In college).

 

[Hankster]

I sadly think Precious will sweep POY ROY and DPOY

If only Bouk started his fire from the start of the season, he would be a lock for ROY. Both games Bouk shined in were nationally televised. That's a good thing.

 

[DayDayTFS]

You all realize there a multiple options every play... hellooo. A good team takes away option #1

 

[Captbluefin]

CV playing in the AAC the freakin AAC!!!! And some metric BS says POY. Come on...

The rest were way better in the real 90’s-2000’s BIG EAST!!!!!

CV is a heart and hustle guy. But would be on the court for 10-15 mins on a vintage Uconn team in the Big East

 

[Edward Sargent]

The jump from Dyson to Vital is more than the jump from Vital to Rashad when comparing 3pt%. And thats considering he's shooting from much further back as mentioned above. But yes, Rashad is the best shooter in UConn history IMO (In college).

Glad you said in college because Ray Allen is the best ever

 

[mauconnfan]

Dyson was a career 31.8% 3PT shooter form a much closer line. Vital is 35.2%. I'd consider that significant.

Dyson was 42.3% from 2 point shots. Vital is 46.2%. I'd consider that significant as well.

FT% dyson was 73.5%, Vital is 82.9%. i'd consider that significant.

True shooting % Dyson was 50.55% and Vital is 56.6%. I'd consider that significant.

Dyson had higher assist rates, but also a higher turnover rate. I do think Vital overall, is a significantly better player. And this is the worst shooting year of his career so it's similar in that regard (Dyson's senior year was also his worst shooting year interestingly enough).

Significantly better is just crazy let's be honest. You can argue these 2 all day and all night not sure who would be right they are so similar. All those numbers are great but Dyson played against much tougher competition especially the league for sure no brainer there. They both played a bit out of control and were both tough defenders. Not even sure I could call it either way the only separation may be Dysons athleticism, better finisher. Everything left on the floor type of players though, toss up!

 

[SubbaBub]

CV is better than Dyson over his career and at his peak. This isn't even an argument.

The closer call is KEA. CV does everything just as well with a weaker supporting cast. The major pause is that 1999 was a whole better than sum of its parts team. If you actually changed any of the first 11 off the bench, you might get a different result.

Gordon was clearly better and I don't think CV could complement Okafor quite as well but that was a dominant team.

2006 would have been interesting. Does CV give that team the attitude required to not play so soft.

2009 is the best comparison, as close to a like for like swap with Dyson.

2011, a senor CV might play over a freshman Bazz but why screw with history.

2014, could CV work as a clear 2nd fiddle to Bazz. Boat did his job all season. Would CV and Bazz get along like that if Bazz shoved him?

 

[mauconnfan]

CV is better than Dyson over his career and at his peak. This isn't even an argument.

The closer call is KEA. CV does everything just as well with a weaker supporting cast. The major pause is that 1999 was a whole better than sum of its parts team. If you actually changed any of the first 11 off the bench, you might get a different result.

Gordon was clearly better and I don't think CV could complement Okafor quite as well but that was a dominant team.

2006 would have been interesting. Does CV give that team the attitude required to not play so soft.

2009 is the best comparison, as close to a like for like swap with Dyson.

2011, a senor CV might play over a freshman Bazz but why screw with history.

2014, could CV work as a clear 2nd fiddle to Bazz. Boat did his job all season. Would CV and Bazz get along like that if Bazz shoved him?

Well there is an argument for sure and it's damn close with those 2 (dyson cv) like it or not. Good argument for either side.

As far as KEA man I hope you're kidding? There is not an argument for those 2 to even be in the same sentence, that's ridiculous. #1 a PG vs a 2G who can't handle it half as good and #2 you can have all the heart you want from either of these but the swag and the answers all come from KEA. Not close nor should it be.

 

[mauconnfan]

I have an idea for all the CV lovers, let's all be a happy family after a great win and not worry about who he's better or as good as. Just let him play out his senior year and see where it goes, his career is not over yet. Maybe he makes a case for himself and you guys about how good he is/was? The kid has a solid game after being a mason for weeks and now he's KEA who won a national championship against the best team maybe ever assembled in college basketball? Geez relax quit getting crazy after his 6-17 performance LOL.

 

[UConnDad]

Lol no actually I am not. Vital does a lot of great things and statistics will show that. Numbers don't account for alot of things though man. I mean let's be honest there are players on other teams (not just Bouknight from our team), that I would rather have making plays at the end of game for us if they were on our team. Collins at USF, Cumberland (offensively).

Vital isn't the best player in our conference by measures that Kenpom doesn't seem to look at. NBA scouts are the end all be all when it comes to evaluating and taking true talent Dave. BC they have big bucks $ on the line. That's what I go by. We saw what they said to him 2 yrs ago. Let's see after this season. I think I have an idea.

NBA scouts are irrelevant to this conversation. Bouk has finally emerged as our best offensive player. CV is currently better in many other categories. Hopefully Bouk works to improve cause his NBA potential means squat. Glad to have them both.

 

[mauconnfan]

NBA scouts are irrelevant to this conversation. Bouk has finally emerged as our best offensive player. CV is currently better in many other categories. Hopefully Bouk works to improve cause his NBA potential means squat. Glad to have them both.

Please tell me the "many other" Dad like to hear your thoughts?

 

[UConnDad]

Please tell me the "many other" Dad like to hear your thoughts?

Only D, hustle, rebounding, free throws,steals. I think you know there’s more to the game than offense.

 

[mauconnfan]

Only D, hustle, rebounding, free throws,steals. I think you know there’s more to the game than offense.

Yeah I know lol.

 

[HobokenHusky]

So we are going use this thread to yell at everyone who gets frustrated with Vital because he’s a senior and is still good for 2-3 rip your hair out dumb plays a game?
He’s had a great career here, and we are a better team with him, but it’s still completely reasonable to get frustrated with him. Him being potential POY and also being super frustrating to watch are not mutually exclusive.

 

[the Q]

Well please don't put Anderson in this neither of the other 2 are the shooters Rashad was, especially clutch wise but who was. I will give you though that Dysons range wasn't great but again, they were very similar in so many ways. He was a set shooter like CV so the first jump in distance may not have hurt him but where they are now could have not sure.

3pt shooting is an edge to Anderson at 38.6% to 35.3% for vital. but again, hes shooting for a much longer distance this year and has always shot from a longer distance.

vital shot 82.8 on FTs to 77.4%.

I’m going to ignore the clutch nonsense because that’s exactly what it is. And comparing their roles for clutch shots is entirely different. Hurley should be setting up vital like JC set up Anderson...aka not off the dribble.

 

[mauconnfan]

3pt shooting is an edge to Anderson at 38.6% to 35.3% for vital. but again, hes shooting for a much longer distance this year and has always shot from a longer distance.

vital shot 82.8 on FTs to 77.4%.

I’m going to ignore the clutch nonsense because that’s exactly what it is. And comparing their roles for clutch shots is entirely different. Hurley should be setting up vital like JC set up Anderson...aka not off the dribble.

Clutch nonsense? LOL how can you ignore that? Like it doesn't mean anything? That's crazy talk Q c'mon these 2 shooting the ball aren't in the the same stratosphere I don't care what the distance is. Man the CV people can get out of control. He was 6 for 17, yes 6 for 17 yesterday relax a bit please. Damn he's suddenly Rashad Anderson and KEA put together in a player. He's part of a team trying to make a mark on UConn history can we let it play out please?

 

[evmore]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Vital is every bit to the Huskies what Marcus Smart is to the Celtics. Not as talented offensively as Smart, but means as much to the team.... pure hustle, makes winning plays, drives you nuts on occasion with ill-timed shooting but there is nobody i trust more defensively and nobody who's effort i question less than CV. He will have a shot to make a team in that same role down the road.. May take a few years in the G-league but stranger things have happened. As far as where he ranks on UConn's teams of the past, obviously he doesn't compare to the greats, and there have been so many great guards especially, that he wouldn't measure up. The real question is if we were to draft a team from those players, most people would make room on that roster for what he brings to the table.
As far as AAC POY, every candidate is flawed & now that Wiseman is no longer & Precious continues to lose, it's safe to say the award is wide open. How UConn finishes this season will determine where he ends up in that vote.
I'n not sure you can replace CV.. certainly can't recruit his skillset, you just hope your recruits possess his compete level and passion & it comes out at some point.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Wait isn't CV a liability from a longer distance this year? Until yesterday 10% lower than last year.

This is a crazy argument and the fact KenPoms stats show this tells you all you need to know about some stats lol. But you can't measure heart in stats and I know for sure I like CVs heart a ton there is not give up on the kid. He looked like he was going to finally have a "CV like" night after drilling his first 3 or 4 but missed a few after that but to me only one was ill advised. As a secondary shot with 14 seconds I liked his missed 3, watched the game with my brother and we both liked it because he was playing well and was open.

Listen you can argue Dyson and CV all day long they were so similar from the way they played and even more so from the way the fans had their differing views. Both played hard, a little out of control at times but could carry a team for a while in games. Dyson was more athletic and thats about it, otherwise it's a toss up.

CV was really good overall yesterday and that's all that counts on the way home for his senior year.

I find this discussion ironic. My friends and I used to refer to bad basketball decision making, hoisting a contested 3 or driving into multiple tall defenders as "pulling a Dyson". Yes, Vital has probably pulled more Dyson's than Dyson did, especially those first two years. I don't really blame him for those two years, he was supposed to be a developmental player and was thrust into a leading role Many times there was nobody else so he took the shots.

Fast forward to this season and he's playing more like a senior guard should. He still has moments and did yesterday, but he also has plays like his pass to Adams on the break that he never would have made in prior seasons. Dyson had more athletic ability certainly and could attack the rim in ways Vital can only dream of. Vital has more determination, and is the best rebounder at his size I've ever seen. He gets steals, but in the past many came from gambling and overplaying his man. This year I think he's playing better team defense. The FT shooting is superb, and a sign of a guy who puts in the work on his game.

Best player in the league? I don't think so, but I'd be happy for him if he wins that.

 

[the Q]

Clutch nonsense? LOL how can you ignore that? Like it doesn't mean anything? That's crazy talk Q c'mon these 2 shooting the ball aren't in the the same stratosphere I don't care what the distance is. Man the CV people can get out of control. He was 6 for 17, yes 6 for 17 yesterday relax a bit please. Damn he's suddenly Rashad Anderson and KEA put together in a player. He's part of a team trying to make a mark on UConn history can we let it play out please?

As Billy Beane famously said: “its ducking luck”

 

[mauconnfan]

I find this discussion ironic. My friends and I used to refer to bad basketball decision making, hoisting a contested 3 or driving into multiple tall defenders as "pulling a Dyson". Yes, Vital has probably pulled more Dyson's than Dyson did, especially those first two years. I don't really blame him for those two years, he was supposed to be a developmental player and was thrust into a leading role Many times there was nobody else so he took the shots.

Fast forward to this season and he's playing more like a senior guard should. He still has moments and did yesterday, but he also has plays like his pass to Adams on the break that he never would have made in prior seasons. Dyson had more athletic ability certainly and could attack the rim in ways Vital can only dream of. Vital has more determination, and is the best rebounder at his size I've ever seen. He gets steals, but in the past many came from gambling and overplaying his man. This year I think he's playing better team defense. The FT shooting is superb, and a sign of a guy who puts in the work on his game.

Best player in the league? I don't think so, but I'd be happy for him if he wins that.

Fair HH!

 

[caw]

Dyson was a career 31.8% 3PT shooter form a much closer line. Vital is 35.2%. I'd consider that significant.

Dyson was 42.3% from 2 point shots. Vital is 46.2%. I'd consider that significant as well.

FT% dyson was 73.5%, Vital is 82.9%. i'd consider that significant.

True shooting % Dyson was 50.55% and Vital is 56.6%. I'd consider that significant.

Dyson had higher assist rates, but also a higher turnover rate. I do think Vital overall, is a significantly better player. And this is the worst shooting year of his career so it's similar in that regard (Dyson's senior year was also his worst shooting year interestingly enough).

Career wise both had the three point line change.

I never mentioned 2point fg% or FT% or true shooting % (which is really just an amalgamation of those three numbers and thus just a restatement on your part).

When I say significant and not significant when talking about statistics I mean statistically significant. Feelings have no bearing here.

If you want to know how I feel, I feel it would be a toss up between the two. CV is not significantly better than Dyson. He brings some different things that could have won him a spot in 09. It would have been interesting to see if the much tougher competition (and perhaps significantly so as per SOS) would have negated his apparent statistical advantages, or if the added talent around him would have allowed him more open looks and freedom. I do not think (eye test) he is near the athlete Dyson was.

Either way I do not think CV would have been a focal point of the offense in those years and would have probably best been played off the bench or as a starter similar to how Rash and Denham went back and forth.

 

[DaveHuskiesFan]

Career wise both had the three point line change.

I never mentioned 2point fg% or FT% or true shooting % (which is really just an amalgamation of those three numbers and thus just a restatement on your part).

When I say significant and not significant when talking about statistics I mean statistically significant. Feelings have no bearing here.

If you want to know how I feel, I feel it would be a toss up between the two. CV is not significantly better than Dyson. He brings some different things that could have won him a spot in 09. It would have been interesting to see if the much tougher competition (and perhaps significantly so as per SOS) would have negated his apparent statistical advantages, or if the added talent around him would have allowed him more open looks and freedom. I do not think (eye test) he is near the athlete Dyson was.

Either way I do not think CV would have been a focal point of the offense in those years and would have probably best been played off the bench or as a starter similar to how Rash and Denham went back and forth.

Right, I get that, and I am too. Vital is roughly a 10% better shooter than Dyson was over his career. When looking at it in totality, that's statistically significant over ~140 career games.

In terms of the best comps for Vital, i would say it's Dyson and Doug Wiggins. Perhaps a little Denham Brown, but brown was much smoother and much taller.

 

[superjohn]

Well there is an argument for sure and it's damn close with those 2 (dyson cv) like it or not. Good argument for either side.

As far as KEA man I hope you're kidding? There is not an argument for those 2 to even be in the same sentence, that's ridiculous. #1 a PG vs a 2G who can't handle it half as good and #2 you can have all the heart you want from either of these but the swag and the answers all come from KEA. Not close nor should it be.

Sadly he's not kidding, he's posted this multiple times. It's this type of insanity that is annoying, it does a major disservice to Vital. CV is a good player who busts his tail but comparing him to El-Amin is laughable.