VaTech 67, TN 63, final | Page 3 | The Boneyard

VaTech 67, TN 63, final

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I suspect Warlick will likely be retained after this season on the benefit of this recent successful and highly touted recruiting class - she'll be given the opportunity to coach this group, I would think, for at least a couple of years (unless something drastic occurs, like a couple of early transfers, a la UNC 2013). If she can get them eventually to that elusive 1st Final Four, then I would think she is in a more secure position.

She will also be given the benefit of the doubt due to her strong post-season record - her teams have gone to the semifinals or deeper of the SEC tournament every year of her tenure (winning it in 2014); and she has made the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 every year of the NCAA's. A lot of coaches would feel good with that track record. But Holly follows a legend, in a program that has known elite status for decades, though not of late. Tough position with little or no wiggle.

I do agree her teams do not pass the eye test of disciplined practiced offense. I sometimes wonder if she and her staff have yet to understand what motivates the current generation of student-athletes. That they are operating out of a dated model that expected more maturity and focus.
 
rvwsleep said:
Judging by this game alone, I would rank Tennessee somewhere between 50-60 in the country. they have no idea on how to play team basketball.
It can't all be the Holly effect. Their players just don't have a high basketball IQ collectively.
VT up 7 in the 3rd Q.
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They haven't for years.
 
You know what. Ive been saying it since the 37 page report. The 37 page report destroyed Tenn and its showing now. For those of you who were around during that time. I said this would be Tenns downfall. It has been proven. Geno got all the recruits and Tenn had to grasp for what was left choosing a bunch of wings and post players when Geno got Maya Caroline and EDD. At that time Tenn thought they had a lock on all 3 . They didnt. So they used all their schollies to recruit a bunch of wing players and that was their downfall, as they could not recruit for a couple of years thus allowing everybody else compete with UConn for top players. Uconn won that battle which started the dynasty and took it to a whole new level. Back in the day it was UConn and Tenn getting all the top recruits and every body else got what was left. Now Tenn fans are living on hope and dreams of the past. The program can not get back to the top even though the pollsters continue to rank them in the top 20 The talent is there but they cant out talent opponents anymore.
 
Gus Mahler said:
After reading the reports on UT's recruiting class for next year, I can't help wondering if last year's whiff was a function of the (real or perceived) chemistry problems brought about by one of the current UT players. Then, for next year, that same player might be presumed to be gone, which would make the program a much more attractive place to be.

Is this cynicism? Or could there be an element of truth to this? What say you?
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My vote is yea, there is truth to that. Problems may dissolve with graduation AND early departures.
 
Tonyc said:
You know what. Ive been saying it since the 37 page report. The 37 page report destroyed Tenn and its showing now. For those of you who were around during that time. I said this would be Tenns downfall. It has been proven. Geno got all the recruits and Tenn had to grasp for what was left choosing a bunch of wings and post players when Geno got Maya Caroline and EDD. At that time Tenn thought they had a lock on all 3 . They didnt. So they used all their schollies to recruit a bunch of wing players and that was their downfall, as they could not recruit for a couple of years thus allowing everybody else compete with UConn for top players. Uconn won that battle which started the dynasty and took it to a whole new level. Back in the day it was UConn and Tenn getting all the top recruits and every body else got what was left. Now Tenn fans are living on hope and dreams of the past. The program can not get back to the top even though the pollsters continue to rank them in the top 20 The talent is there but they cant out talent opponents anymore.
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To back up your contention, look at how UConn's recruiting took off from the year before (posted elsewhere). We got Tina Charles in 2006, then Maya in 2007 (the year of the 37 page report). Those were the first trickles of a stream that became a mighty recruiting river. This has been, if I'm not mistaken, Coach Geno's greatest inflow of talent in his entire 31-year career:

The next year Tiffany Hayes. The next year, Kelly Faris.

Then:

Stephanie Dolson and Bria Hartley- fall 2010
Kaleena Mosquera-Lewis and Kia Stokes- 2011
Breanna Stewart, Moriah Jefferson, and Morgan Tuck- 2012
Saniya Chong (named by one publication player of the year)- 2013
Kia Nurse and Gabby Williams- 2014
Napheesa Collier and Katie Lou Samuelson- 2015
Crystal Dangerfield- 2016
Megan Walker- 2017
Charli Collier- 2018

And Tennessee went down the tubes during that time. And while Connecticut was beginning their biggest recruiting push, Notre Dame was snarfing up the ones that UConn didn't get.
 
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Tennessee needs to clean house. Starting at the top. Young fresh and exciting coaching is needed. A coach that teaches team first and checks players attitudes at the door. (Player home doors). I wonder if Kara Lawson is interested in the job?
 
Zorro said:
Does anyone remember how dismally disappointed we all were when DD decided not to be a Husky? Wish I could resurrect the BY posts from that dismal day.
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Not necessary Zorro, we get your drift. Please, let sleeping dogs lay.
 
It won't happen, but can you imagine the comments that would be forthcoming IF UConn lost to unranked Chattanooga like Tennessee did to Va Tech? :eek:
 
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Fairfield Fan said:
To back up your contention, look at how UConn's recruiting took off from the year before (posted elsewhere). We got Tina Charles in 2006, then Maya in 2007 (the year of the 37 page report). Those were the first trickles of a stream that became a mighty recruiting river. This has been, if I'm not mistaken, Coach Geno's greatest inflow of talent in his entire 31-year career:

The next year Tiffany Hayes. The next year, Kelly Faris.

Then:

Stephanie Dolson and Bria Hartley- fall 2010
Kaleena Mosquera-Lewis and Kia Stokes- 2011
Breanna Stewart, Moriah Jefferson, and Morgan Tuck- 2012
Saniya Chong (named by one publication player of the year)- 2013
Kia Nurse and Gabby Williams- 2014
Napheesa Collier and Katie Lou Samuelson- 2015
Crystal Dangerfield- 2016
Megan Walker- 2017
Charli Collier- 2018

And Tennessee went down the tubes during that time. And while Connecticut was beginning their biggest recruiting push, Notre Dame was snarfing up the ones that UConn didn't get.
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Tennessee's recruiting didn't go down the tubes after the Moore situation. Since 2007, look at the top 10 kids they've landed:
2007-Bjorklund and Baugh both top 5. Cain #12.
2008-Johnson, Gray and Stricklen top 10. Manning/Brewer top 20.
2009-Spani top 15 recruit
2010-Simmons in the 20s
2011-Massengale and Burdick top 5
2012-Graves top 5
2013-Russell and DeShields top 3, Tucker committed and was top 10
2014-Nared was top 10
2015-Cooper was ranked top 10 by most publications, #12 by Hoopgurlz IIRC
2016-zilch
2017-Hayes, Westbrook both are top 10. Davis is #12.

The problem hasn't been recruiting. Developing the recruits has been another situation, and the more time goes on, the more it looks like the blame is squarely on Holly.

The 2007 class was under Pat the whole time. Baugh and Cain were riddled with injuries--although it's worth noting that Cain looked quite good when healthy in 2010. Bjorklund was badly overrated coming out of HS.

2008 class-Stricklen/Johnson both had very good careers at UT and went top 3 or 4 in the 2012 draft. Gray had a horrible illness and had to transfer out because Tennessee wouldn't let her play with her condition. Brewer looked good for a season, Manning was a decent role player.

The 2007 and 2008 kids had some good seasons at Tennessee and the 2007 kids (Baugh/Cain) likely would've developed into better players if they didn't have so many injury problems. Tennessee had great teams in 2010 and 2011 but lost to Griner/Diggins in the tournament.

Holly essentially took the reigns of the program over in 2012. This is where player development and win/loss record has really halted. Burdick, Massengale, Graves, DeShields and Russell were all top 5 kids. None have lived up to it. Simmons and Graves were oozing with potential as freshmen and graduated with no skill development. Both were arguably better players as freshmen.

The product on the court has consistently declined. In the 5 years prior to 2012, Tennessee had records of:
34-3, 32-3, 22-11, 36-2, 34-3.

When Holly took the reigns in 2011-12, her teams have produced records of:
27-9, 27-8, 29-6, 30-6, 22-14. You'd have to go back to the 80s to find two consecutive years when Tennessee had 6 or more losses. Holly's had 5 straight.

Holly is the reason why this program is steadily declining. She has proven that she can recruit, but she can't put together a good product on the court. Put her roster with most top 25 coaches in America and they'll have Tennessee a staple in the top 5.

She has proven that she can get her teams to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8, but aside from the 2 good wins last year, Tennessee hasn't won an NCAA tournament game against a top 4 seeded team since 2011. Tennessee got lucky matchups in the Sweet 16 in 2012, 2013 and 2015 facing teams seeded 6th or lower. They were blown out by Maryland in 2014, although Maryland was very underrated.

When she can lead Tennessee to an upset of a team like Baylor or Notre Dame, then I'll have some hope for the program. Otherwise, it'll be a consistent descent as long as she's at the helm, even with a top class coming in yet again.
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
This strike anyone else as funny (as in funny peculiar)?



Passive? That's going to end real soon?? :eek:
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Near the end , DD says that the reason she had some many turnovers is that she was trying too hard to pass to her teammates. She said that she does not turn over the ball when she focuses on scoring, that she will not not make the same mistake (i.e. passing too much) again, and that her team needs her to score. Funny peculiar indeed.
 
Fairfield Fan said:
To back up your contention, look at how UConn's recruiting took off from the year before (posted elsewhere). We got Tina Charles in 2006, then Maya in 2007 (the year of the 37 page report). Those were the first trickles of a stream that became a mighty recruiting river. This has been, if I'm not mistaken, Coach Geno's greatest inflow of talent in his entire 31-year career:

The next year Tiffany Hayes. The next year, Kelly Faris.

Then:

Stephanie Dolson and Bria Hartley- fall 2010
Kaleena Mosquera-Lewis and Kia Stokes- 2011
Breanna Stewart, Moriah Jefferson, and Morgan Tuck- 2012
Saniya Chong (named by one publication player of the year)- 2013
Kia Nurse and Gabby Williams- 2014
Napheesa Collier and Katie Lou Samuelson- 2015
Crystal Dangerfield- 2016
Megan Walker- 2017
Charli Collier- 2018

And Tennessee went down the tubes during that time. And while Connecticut was beginning their biggest recruiting push, Notre Dame was snarfing up the ones that UConn didn't get.
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I must disagree. The cupboard has hardly been bare in Knoxville since 2006:

Candace Parker
Shanna Zolman
Alexis Hornbuckle
Nicky Anosike (Geno recruited her hard)
Brianna Bass
Angie Bjorklund
Glory Johnson
Shekinna Strickland
Bashaara Graves
Ariel Massengale (Geno recruited her, too, but eventually backed off)
Taber Spani (Geno also recruited her hard)
#1 Mercedes Russell
#1 Diamond DeShields

Talent is NOT the problem at Tennessee.
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
This strike anyone else as funny (as in funny peculiar)?



Passive? That's going to end real soon?? :eek:
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I don't like to beat up Tennessee because, well, there are others who delight in that. However, this clip says everything we need to know about Tennessee. DD took 16 shots to score 15 points. Yet she believes that she needs to pass less (she certainly needs to turn the ball over less) and shoot more. She is a volume shooter (has to shoot a lot to score a lot). After that game shooting more is the message she takes away!

I cannot imagine a UConn player shooting 37% after 16 shots saying 'I need to shoot more and pass less.' I don't ever recall a UConn player saying they need to shoot more after taking so many shots. I mean all-time greats, Diana, Sue, Maya, Tina, Stewie never said that after a loss. UConn players revel in the pass to a teammate that leads to a score. The players focus on teamwork and winning, not how many shots they take. The coaches focus on who and how many shots.

Tennessee has a coaching problem. Geno and CD would not tolerate comments like that. Could you imagine the scathing sarcasm from Geno's lips after that statement? Can you imagine how long that player would ride the bench? HW needs to get this ship under control. She needs to teach the value of teamwork and assisting each other. Tennessee is lost right now.
 
bballnut90 said:
Holly needs to go.
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Wait a second here, let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Holly is coming off a Elite Eight appearance and had regular season victories over two of the Final four teams from last year. She also signed the number 1 recruiting class for 2017. Come on, give her a chance. Does anybody "really" know if Diamond is healthy anyway?
 
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CocoHusky said:
Wait a second here, let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Holly is coming off a Elite Eight appearance and had regular season victories over two of the Final four teams from last year. She also signed the number 1 recruiting class for 2017. Come on, give her a chance. Does anybody "really" know if Diamond is healthy anyway?
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OT: is Nina?
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
This strike anyone else as funny (as in funny peculiar)?



Passive? That's going to end real soon?? :eek:
Expand ...


Wow. I couldn't finish watching that. They looked completely demoralized. I don't like UT, but I don't want to see girls playing a game they should love look so sad. It's still November. What are the pressers going to be like in February? They are back with practically the same team as last year and they are expecting major improvements.

The question I have for UT fans is if Butch Jones (UT football coach) is on the hot seat, how can Holly not be? It is just my opinion, but I think it is a disservice to women's sports to hold them to a lower standard.

Women's basketball is just better when UT is good. My most vivid memories of women's basketball consist of Immaculata, Cheyney State, Cheryl Swoops final four, and UT -UConn games.
 
Nothing has changed at Tenn. It seems every season expectations are high and they cant play up to those expectations . Once again we find early they are not a top 15-20 team. Theyve got the talent but not what it takes to play as a team. Hey with two number 1 HS players with experience one being 6'6 and they cant win???? It all falls on the shoulders of the coaching staff. They dont have it. Why is it that they dont get rid of Holly. Its simple alums want all the money to go to football not WBB. Holly is under contract and if they let her go they still have to pay her and a new coach. That aint happening when those with deep pockets want to see their Football team win a NC. So the saga will continue.
 
CocoHusky said:
Wait a second here, let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Holly is coming off a Elite Eight appearance and had regular season victories over two of the Final four teams from last year. She also signed the number 1 recruiting class for 2017. Come on, give her a chance. Does anybody "really" know if Diamond is healthy anyway?
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Tenn made the Elite 8 because the players decided to put some effort into the games once in the tourney. The regular season was a disaster, by elite team standards, with a record setting 14 losses, some to unranked and vastly inferior teams. HCHW can't get her team to play with a sense of urgency or with any consistency. Couple that with a non-existent offensive scheme and spotty defense - it all points to bad coaching.
 
HuskyNan said:
Tenn made the Elite 8 because the players decided to put some effort into the games once in the tourney. The regular season was a disaster, by elite team standards, with a record setting 14 losses, some to unranked and vastly inferior teams. HCHW can't get her team to play with a sense of urgency or with any consistency. Couple that with a non-existent offensive scheme and spotty defense - it all points to bad coaching.
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I still see no "good" reason for TN to make a change from HCHW. :D
 
I am surprised at the highly ranked players who have committed to this program next year. Sure, they may have tradition, nice facilities and maybe they liked the University. But when you look at the coaching and the non-development of the previously highly ranked players there, how can you think this is a good career move? These are players good enough not to worry about playing time at most schools. There are other schools with good coaches where they could be stars. Surprised that a number of them chose this situation.
 
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What I find surprising is that it is not just the head coach that is the issue - I think Holly is a good 'manager' - it is the role she played successfully for Pat for years, but in a basketball sense is overmatched in knowledge and understanding, and I suspect doesn't 'see' what is important in a basketball sense. Geno and most good coaches can look at five minutes of game action and give a solid critique of all the players on the court, what they are doing well as a team, and where they need work, and what each players strengths and weaknesses are, and how to start correcting them. I think Holly looks at that same five minutes and needs to check the box score to figure out which team is better and which team rebounds better. And even with that, she could be a decent HC if she had good assistants who can see those things she can't and were empowered to make changes and coach the players. I think there are some pretty successful coaches who are better managers than coaches, but they recognize their own weaknesses and surround themselves with very talented and motivated assistants. And that is where I think Holly has really failed - I don't see any signs that any of the assistants is doing anything more than punching a clock an cashing their paycheck.

I was really surprised when leaving my theater career and going into a B to B service career, when we went to visit F500 companies and fairly high level managers were completely incompetent - private business is always touted as this efficient machine, but these folks would have been ejected from a theater business in seconds. And what was always interesting was that you could bet that the staff these incompetents had hired below them were even dimmer bulbs - they didn't want to be challenged from below in their little fiefdoms. I bring this little personal history up because that is the way I view the TN coaching staff. I don't see Holly as a good coach or teacher, and it just seems she has surrounded herself with assistants that are if anything worse, or who have lost any fire they had and are just playing out the string until they get their pension. As others note, the lack of appreciable development for the talent TN continues to get is glaring. Which assistant works with guards and can't teach Massingale or Simmons what a good shot looks like in four years, who worked with Graves who may have been the most talented player coming into TN of any of their bigs, and succeeds in extinguishing that talent. Those issues fall squarely on the assistants as well as on the HC.

You look at a number of other programs and think the HC is somewhat limited, or that they win in spite of their HC, but those same programs that have success have a steady stream of high quality assistants cycling through - or better still find those assistants and make it comfortable for them to stay for longer stints.
 
UcMiami said:
Which assistant works with guards and can't teach Massingale or Simmons what a good shot looks like in four years, who worked with Graves who may have been the most talented player coming into TN of any of their bigs, and succeeds in extinguishing that talent. Those issues fall squarely on the assistants as well as on the HC.
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Bingo! But Holly, truly, is duller than the proverbial door post and that seems to suit the AD at Tenn. just fine. "I don't care about the damn rankings." Obviously.
 
OldAlum said:
I am surprised at the highly ranked players who have committed to this program next year. Sure, they may have tradition, nice facilities and maybe they liked the University. But when you look at the coaching and the non-development of the previously highly ranked players there, how can you think this is a good career move? These are players good enough not to worry about playing time at most schools. There are other schools with good coaches where they could be stars. Surprised that a number of them chose this situation.
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I think it speaks to why every summer another person publishes a 'guide' to parents and players on how to approach the recruiting process - what questions to ask, what issues to look for, how to cut through the sales pitch and dog and pony show that schools put on, and make an informed rational choice.

And it is why your inbox and mailbox are full of offers of free credit, and career advancement, and magic pills, and ... And while we all think we are sophisticated enough to see through all this clutter, pretty much everyone has fallen victim to something in a sales pitch that didn't quite pan out the way we thought. We humans like to be flattered and appreciated and told how good we are - a smile and a pat on the back go a long way to making our day better. 16 year olds don't have the life experiences that help curb the enthusiasms of older folks, but a lot of older folks are equally susceptible, so the parents desperately want the dreams for their children that they are being sold.
 
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