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VaTech 67, TN 63, final

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HuskyNan

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To back up your contention, look at how UConn's recruiting took off from the year before (posted elsewhere). We got Tina Charles in 2006, then Maya in 2007 (the year of the 37 page report). Those were the first trickles of a stream that became a mighty recruiting river. This has been, if I'm not mistaken, Coach Geno's greatest inflow of talent in his entire 31-year career:

The next year Tiffany Hayes. The next year, Kelly Faris.

Then:

Stephanie Dolson and Bria Hartley- fall 2010
Kaleena Mosquera-Lewis and Kia Stokes- 2011
Breanna Stewart, Moriah Jefferson, and Morgan Tuck- 2012
Saniya Chong (named by one publication player of the year)- 2013
Kia Nurse and Gabby Williams- 2014
Napheesa Collier and Katie Lou Samuelson- 2015
Crystal Dangerfield- 2016
Megan Walker- 2017
Charli Collier- 2018

And Tennessee went down the tubes during that time. And while Connecticut was beginning their biggest recruiting push, Notre Dame was snarfing up the ones that UConn didn't get.
I must disagree. The cupboard has hardly been bare in Knoxville since 2006:

Candace Parker
Shanna Zolman
Alexis Hornbuckle
Nicky Anosike (Geno recruited her hard)
Brianna Bass
Angie Bjorklund
Glory Johnson
Shekinna Strickland
Bashaara Graves
Ariel Massengale (Geno recruited her, too, but eventually backed off)
Taber Spani (Geno also recruited her hard)
#1 Mercedes Russell
#1 Diamond DeShields

Talent is NOT the problem at Tennessee.
 
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This strike anyone else as funny (as in funny peculiar)?



Passive? That's going to end real soon?? :eek:


I don't like to beat up Tennessee because, well, there are others who delight in that. However, this clip says everything we need to know about Tennessee. DD took 16 shots to score 15 points. Yet she believes that she needs to pass less (she certainly needs to turn the ball over less) and shoot more. She is a volume shooter (has to shoot a lot to score a lot). After that game shooting more is the message she takes away!

I cannot imagine a UConn player shooting 37% after 16 shots saying 'I need to shoot more and pass less.' I don't ever recall a UConn player saying they need to shoot more after taking so many shots. I mean all-time greats, Diana, Sue, Maya, Tina, Stewie never said that after a loss. UConn players revel in the pass to a teammate that leads to a score. The players focus on teamwork and winning, not how many shots they take. The coaches focus on who and how many shots.

Tennessee has a coaching problem. Geno and CD would not tolerate comments like that. Could you imagine the scathing sarcasm from Geno's lips after that statement? Can you imagine how long that player would ride the bench? HW needs to get this ship under control. She needs to teach the value of teamwork and assisting each other. Tennessee is lost right now.
 

CocoHusky

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Holly needs to go.
Wait a second here, let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Holly is coming off a Elite Eight appearance and had regular season victories over two of the Final four teams from last year. She also signed the number 1 recruiting class for 2017. Come on, give her a chance. Does anybody "really" know if Diamond is healthy anyway?
 

msf22b

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Wait a second here, let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Holly is coming off a Elite Eight appearance and had regular season victories over two of the Final four teams from last year. She also signed the number 1 recruiting class for 2017. Come on, give her a chance. Does anybody "really" know if Diamond is healthy anyway?

OT: is Nina?
 
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This strike anyone else as funny (as in funny peculiar)?



Passive? That's going to end real soon?? :eek:


Wow. I couldn't finish watching that. They looked completely demoralized. I don't like UT, but I don't want to see girls playing a game they should love look so sad. It's still November. What are the pressers going to be like in February? They are back with practically the same team as last year and they are expecting major improvements.

The question I have for UT fans is if Butch Jones (UT football coach) is on the hot seat, how can Holly not be? It is just my opinion, but I think it is a disservice to women's sports to hold them to a lower standard.

Women's basketball is just better when UT is good. My most vivid memories of women's basketball consist of Immaculata, Cheyney State, Cheryl Swoops final four, and UT -UConn games.
 

Tonyc

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Nothing has changed at Tenn. It seems every season expectations are high and they cant play up to those expectations . Once again we find early they are not a top 15-20 team. Theyve got the talent but not what it takes to play as a team. Hey with two number 1 HS players with experience one being 6'6 and they cant win???? It all falls on the shoulders of the coaching staff. They dont have it. Why is it that they dont get rid of Holly. Its simple alums want all the money to go to football not WBB. Holly is under contract and if they let her go they still have to pay her and a new coach. That aint happening when those with deep pockets want to see their Football team win a NC. So the saga will continue.
 

HuskyNan

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Wait a second here, let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Holly is coming off a Elite Eight appearance and had regular season victories over two of the Final four teams from last year. She also signed the number 1 recruiting class for 2017. Come on, give her a chance. Does anybody "really" know if Diamond is healthy anyway?
Tenn made the Elite 8 because the players decided to put some effort into the games once in the tourney. The regular season was a disaster, by elite team standards, with a record setting 14 losses, some to unranked and vastly inferior teams. HCHW can't get her team to play with a sense of urgency or with any consistency. Couple that with a non-existent offensive scheme and spotty defense - it all points to bad coaching.
 

CocoHusky

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Tenn made the Elite 8 because the players decided to put some effort into the games once in the tourney. The regular season was a disaster, by elite team standards, with a record setting 14 losses, some to unranked and vastly inferior teams. HCHW can't get her team to play with a sense of urgency or with any consistency. Couple that with a non-existent offensive scheme and spotty defense - it all points to bad coaching.
I still see no "good" reason for TN to make a change from HCHW. :D
 
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I am surprised at the highly ranked players who have committed to this program next year. Sure, they may have tradition, nice facilities and maybe they liked the University. But when you look at the coaching and the non-development of the previously highly ranked players there, how can you think this is a good career move? These are players good enough not to worry about playing time at most schools. There are other schools with good coaches where they could be stars. Surprised that a number of them chose this situation.
 

UcMiami

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What I find surprising is that it is not just the head coach that is the issue - I think Holly is a good 'manager' - it is the role she played successfully for Pat for years, but in a basketball sense is overmatched in knowledge and understanding, and I suspect doesn't 'see' what is important in a basketball sense. Geno and most good coaches can look at five minutes of game action and give a solid critique of all the players on the court, what they are doing well as a team, and where they need work, and what each players strengths and weaknesses are, and how to start correcting them. I think Holly looks at that same five minutes and needs to check the box score to figure out which team is better and which team rebounds better. And even with that, she could be a decent HC if she had good assistants who can see those things she can't and were empowered to make changes and coach the players. I think there are some pretty successful coaches who are better managers than coaches, but they recognize their own weaknesses and surround themselves with very talented and motivated assistants. And that is where I think Holly has really failed - I don't see any signs that any of the assistants is doing anything more than punching a clock an cashing their paycheck.

I was really surprised when leaving my theater career and going into a B to B service career, when we went to visit F500 companies and fairly high level managers were completely incompetent - private business is always touted as this efficient machine, but these folks would have been ejected from a theater business in seconds. And what was always interesting was that you could bet that the staff these incompetents had hired below them were even dimmer bulbs - they didn't want to be challenged from below in their little fiefdoms. I bring this little personal history up because that is the way I view the TN coaching staff. I don't see Holly as a good coach or teacher, and it just seems she has surrounded herself with assistants that are if anything worse, or who have lost any fire they had and are just playing out the string until they get their pension. As others note, the lack of appreciable development for the talent TN continues to get is glaring. Which assistant works with guards and can't teach Massingale or Simmons what a good shot looks like in four years, who worked with Graves who may have been the most talented player coming into TN of any of their bigs, and succeeds in extinguishing that talent. Those issues fall squarely on the assistants as well as on the HC.

You look at a number of other programs and think the HC is somewhat limited, or that they win in spite of their HC, but those same programs that have success have a steady stream of high quality assistants cycling through - or better still find those assistants and make it comfortable for them to stay for longer stints.
 

RockyMTblue2

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Which assistant works with guards and can't teach Massingale or Simmons what a good shot looks like in four years, who worked with Graves who may have been the most talented player coming into TN of any of their bigs, and succeeds in extinguishing that talent. Those issues fall squarely on the assistants as well as on the HC.

Bingo! But Holly, truly, is duller than the proverbial door post and that seems to suit the AD at Tenn. just fine. "I don't care about the damn rankings." Obviously.
 

UcMiami

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I am surprised at the highly ranked players who have committed to this program next year. Sure, they may have tradition, nice facilities and maybe they liked the University. But when you look at the coaching and the non-development of the previously highly ranked players there, how can you think this is a good career move? These are players good enough not to worry about playing time at most schools. There are other schools with good coaches where they could be stars. Surprised that a number of them chose this situation.
I think it speaks to why every summer another person publishes a 'guide' to parents and players on how to approach the recruiting process - what questions to ask, what issues to look for, how to cut through the sales pitch and dog and pony show that schools put on, and make an informed rational choice.

And it is why your inbox and mailbox are full of offers of free credit, and career advancement, and magic pills, and ... And while we all think we are sophisticated enough to see through all this clutter, pretty much everyone has fallen victim to something in a sales pitch that didn't quite pan out the way we thought. We humans like to be flattered and appreciated and told how good we are - a smile and a pat on the back go a long way to making our day better. 16 year olds don't have the life experiences that help curb the enthusiasms of older folks, but a lot of older folks are equally susceptible, so the parents desperately want the dreams for their children that they are being sold.
 
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I suspect Warlick will likely be retained after this season on the benefit of this recent successful and highly touted recruiting class - she'll be given the opportunity to coach this group, I would think, for at least a couple of years (unless something drastic occurs, like a couple of early transfers, a la UNC 2013). If she can get them eventually to that elusive 1st Final Four, then I would think she is in a more secure position.

She will also be given the benefit of the doubt due to her strong post-season record - her teams have gone to the semifinals or deeper of the SEC tournament every year of her tenure (winning it in 2014); and she has made the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 every year of the NCAA's. A lot of coaches would feel good with that track record. But Holly follows a legend, in a program that has known elite status for decades, though not of late. Tough position with little or no wiggle.

I do agree her teams do not pass the eye test of disciplined practiced offense. I sometimes wonder if she and her staff have yet to understand what motivates the current generation of student-athletes. That they are operating out of a dated model that expected more maturity and focus.

Come on Chuck---The Vols barely got by JMU --until the 4th quarter --a Mid Major, in a tiny pond. Kenny Brooks (Va Tech) took over an less than successful team, recently, without time to recruit or put his stamp on this team--and THEY BEAT --the VOLs??
The Admin and Fans of UTn must be wondering about Holly.
With the level of talent Holly has had--I'm reluctant to say this--but if any of the other top 10 coaches had this team--MY OpinION--the outcomes these past few years would have been different.
 
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I think it speaks to why every summer another person publishes a 'guide' to parents and players on how to approach the recruiting process - what questions to ask, what issues to look for, how to cut through the sales pitch and dog and pony show that schools put on, and make an informed rational choice.

And it is why your inbox and mailbox are full of offers of free credit, and career advancement, and magic pills, and ... And while we all think we are sophisticated enough to see through all this clutter, pretty much everyone has fallen victim to something in a sales pitch that didn't quite pan out the way we thought. We humans like to be flattered and appreciated and told how good we are - a smile and a pat on the back go a long way to making our day better. 16 year olds don't have the life experiences that help curb the enthusiasms of older folks, but a lot of older folks are equally susceptible, so the parents desperately want the dreams for their children that they are being sold.

I'd sign up to any thing that had a great Dog and/or pony show. I try never to miss them.

When my kids were growing up---they were suckered in by nearly every --unbelievable tale of success, beauty, financial patter.
They were told the OLD---if it appears too good to be true--it usually is--AND--always ask what's in it for them--what's in it for you.
The tale of the shoe store salesman was the only man in town to love to have families of 5 or greater to come into his store--WhY??
 

CocoHusky

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I must disagree. The cupboard has hardly been bare in Knoxville since 2006:

Candace Parker
Shanna Zolman
Alexis Hornbuckle
Nicky Anosike (Geno recruited her hard)
Brianna Bass
Angie Bjorklund
Glory Johnson
Shekinna Strickland
Bashaara Graves
Ariel Massengale (Geno recruited her, too, but eventually backed off)
Taber Spani (Geno also recruited her hard)
#1 Mercedes Russell
#1 Diamond DeShields

Talent is NOT the problem at Tennessee.
Don't forget:
Cierra Burdick #3
& Izzy Harrison #29
and Megan Simmons # 24
& Taber Spani
and 'Draya Carter #21
& Janah Tucker #8
and Jamie Nared #6
& T'ea Cooper # 12
and Alexa Middleton #28
 
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What I find surprising is that it is not just the head coach that is the issue - I think Holly is a good 'manager' - it is the role she played successfully for Pat for years, but in a basketball sense is overmatched in knowledge and understanding, and I suspect doesn't 'see' what is important in a basketball sense. Geno and most good coaches can look at five minutes of game action and give a solid critique of all the players on the court, what they are doing well as a team, and where they need work, and what each players strengths and weaknesses are, and how to start correcting them. I think Holly looks at that same five minutes and needs to check the box score to figure out which team is better and which team rebounds better. And even with that, she could be a decent HC if she had good assistants who can see those things she can't and were empowered to make changes and coach the players. I think there are some pretty successful coaches who are better managers than coaches, but they recognize their own weaknesses and surround themselves with very talented and motivated assistants. And that is where I think Holly has really failed - I don't see any signs that any of the assistants is doing anything more than punching a clock an cashing their paycheck.

I was really surprised when leaving my theater career and going into a B to B service career, when we went to visit F500 companies and fairly high level managers were completely incompetent - private business is always touted as this efficient machine, but these folks would have been ejected from a theater business in seconds. And what was always interesting was that you could bet that the staff these incompetents had hired below them were even dimmer bulbs - they didn't want to be challenged from below in their little fiefdoms. I bring this little personal history up because that is the way I view the TN coaching staff. I don't see Holly as a good coach or teacher, and it just seems she has surrounded herself with assistants that are if anything worse, or who have lost any fire they had and are just playing out the string until they get their pension. As others note, the lack of appreciable development for the talent TN continues to get is glaring. Which assistant works with guards and can't teach Massingale or Simmons what a good shot looks like in four years, who worked with Graves who may have been the most talented player coming into TN of any of their bigs, and succeeds in extinguishing that talent. Those issues fall squarely on the assistants as well as on the HC.

I agree with --if she had good assistants who know the game and how to make "in game' corrections she'd be a great coach--but why would an assistant that good want to work with Holly?? She should have hired Kenny Brooks two years ago and offered him 200,000 per year and he'd have jumped--.
Any Head Coach worth his or her pay knows that ---the total responsibility for her/his team belongs to the HC--if the assistants don't do the job--that's on the HC--but that assumes the HC knows what to do.
Smart managers/coaches/ hire subordinates who know the job, are innovative, and intelligent--knowing they'll stay only for a short time--but you milk them while you can--and department/team looks great. Insecure managers--avoid them.

You look at a number of other programs and think the HC is somewhat limited, or that they win in spite of their HC, but those same programs that have success have a steady stream of high quality assistants cycling through - or better still find those assistants and make it comfortable for them to stay for longer stints.
 
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I must disagree. The cupboard has hardly been bare in Knoxville since 2006:

Candace Parker
Shanna Zolman
Alexis Hornbuckle
Nicky Anosike (Geno recruited her hard)
Brianna Bass
Angie Bjorklund
Glory Johnson
Shekinna Strickland
Bashaara Graves
Ariel Massengale (Geno recruited her, too, but eventually backed off)
Taber Spani (Geno also recruited her hard)
#1 Mercedes Russell
#1 Diamond DeShields

Talent is NOT the problem at Tennessee.


Add to this list all those ROLE players who did the job and made The Vols into a top team. They were never without Top players
Kara Lawson--isn't among those on your list--I didn't like her much after she and her team beat Uconn at the Civic center-now she's my favorite TV analyst.
 

CocoHusky

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Kara Lawson--isn't among those on your list--I didn't like her much after she and her team beat Uconn at the Civic center-now she's my favorite TV analyst.
@HuskyNan was referencing talent in Knoxville since 2006 which would have excluded Kara but would certainly include Vicki Baugh #5???.
 

CocoHusky

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My guess is that a significant percentage of this generation's young woman, really don't believe that they need good coaching, having received precious little of it throughout their HS and AAU careers (goes for DD as well).
They think that their natural talent will just carry their team to triumph, like it always has.
Oh boy, are they about to be schooled.
Unfortunately not many or enough will be schooled in a way that will make a real difference. I agree that this is a generational thing, not limited to young women though. Besides the instant gratification of this generation too many are also being taught that that there is nothing greater than themselves. This makes teaching lessons about sacrifice, team, growth, and winning championships increasingly harder to deliver because the immature mind will always reason: "Because there is nothing greater than me I don't need to sacrifice and grown & of course I'm going to win a championship(s)."
 

vtcwbuff

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Based on that, I see her leaving at the end of this season for the WNBA, to TN's advantage. Hopefully, she will find her way, there.

That's assuming the WNBA wants her. Her stats aren't exactly first round pick material. Just looking at her numbers she can't shoot and she can't take care of the ball so where did her rep come from? High school?
 

EricLA

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For all the Holly bashing Tenn fans want to heap on her, the reality is that her record in the NCAA's is something most other fan bases would envy. In fact, almost all fan bases would envy it. Couple that with her excellent recruiting class out of 2017, and I would be SHOCKED if they got rid of Holly any time soon.

Tenn fans need to remember that one of the reasons they recruited so well for the 2017 class is because of the coaches, and their relationships they built with the players AND their families. Not all coaching staffs spend THAT much time recruiting kids. Ohio State and L'ville are 2 programs that have taken YEARS to build their programs into what should be perennial top 10 teams going forward. But look at the rest of the top teams in WCBB - they almost ALL have seasoned coaches who are legends at their respective schools.
  1. UCONN - Geno
  2. ND - Muffet
  3. SC - Dawn
  4. Baylor - Kim
  5. FSU - Sue Semrau
  6. Maryland - Brenda
  7. Stanford - Tara
  8. Mississippi State - Vic Schaefer
  9. L'ville - Walz (since 2007)
Teams like OSU (McGuff - 2013), UCLA (Close - 2011), Texas (Aston 2012), and Tennessee (Warlick - 2012) are all relatively new coaches. Tenn fans are realizing that there is no way to duplicate what Pat brought to the program prior to her departure. And replacing Warlick may get a more energized coach with better X's and O's, but it won't make recruiting better - Tennessee is simply not a destination school for anyone (location, quality of education, etc).

Warlick's recruiting has been consistently in the top 10 since she took over. As the Tenn fan pointed out, she's landed multiple top 10 kids since she took over. I just don't see how that AD or administration has any cause to let her go, other than Tenn fans unrealistic expectations of their place in the WCBB universe...
 
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