Tua

[BigErnMcCracken]

I guess this boils down to if you believe in the NFL protocols. You either believe in them and think this should play out. Or you believe in them and think everyone involved conspired to rig them somehow. Or you think some stricter measures should be in place. There is no eye test for this, and different people can react in different ways to a concussion. The symptoms may vanish quickly for some and linger for others. It's also worth mentioning that not every blow to the head results in a concussion. The only thing we know for sure are that the protocols in place are the ones agreed upon by the NFL and the NFLPA, and if Tua was evaluated every day for any activity that would trigger a response, and passed, what are you supposed to do? Just sit a guy out based on some intuition, etc?

All the results of this are going to be made public, so let's see what the record shows before we fire, hang, or sue anyone.

Personally I think you’re putting too much stock in the NFL not being completely full of but I guess we’ll see how it plays out.

 

[superjohn]

Prayers for Tua. That's all that matters. I hope he recovers fully and quickly, and has no long term impacts on his health. As for casting blame, I don't know what happened last week. The PhD guy on twitter doesn't know, he and almost everyone are making assumptions. If I had to assume, I too would say he probably shouldn't have played, especially on a short week. There will be an investigation and we'll know more then.

I think we all know enough to know he had some sort of head injury and not a back injury like Tua claimed, you don't have to be a physician to see that. If the NFL, the Dolphins, and Tua (I don't blame him) can get away with saying he had hand injuries last night they'll say he had hand injuries.

 

[traitor71]

Yes.

That's just ridiculous. Seriously. When guys are cleared at every step of the way, you don't just act like a parent telling their kid they can't go out "because". The agreed upon guidelines are there, and they work both ways.

 

[superjohn]

Personally I think you’re putting too much stock in the NFL not being completely full of but I guess we’ll see how it plays out.

The NFL has no leg to stand on when it comes to this sort of thing, they can say what they like but they have decades of actions which show they're willing to do the most vile things to not address the problem and take care of/pay their players.

Charles Robinson on Twitter: "To the “it would’ve taken a grand conspiracy to get Tua back into the game against the #Bills” crowd: This was from Andrew Whitworth last night. Y’all say it takes a village to slip a player past #NFL concussion protocols, despite what players reveal about it themselves. Stop it. https://post original url/UoxT4KlhW9" / Twitter

 

[traitor71]

Personally I think you’re putting too much stock in the NFL not being completely full of but I guess we’ll see how it plays out.

Here is the thing, they have already been held liable when it comes to concussion related injuries, etc. With the amount of money that could be at stake, we're to believe that the NFL, Miami, Tua, and the doctor all said "screw it"? The liability changes everything. Can you imagine if there really was some big conspiracy to hide something and something really, really terrible happened on the field? It would be catastrophic for them, and you can be sure these guys don't want to take that kind of chance. I just don't see some grand conspiracy here, it doesn't make sense.

 

[husky429]

Here is the thing, they have already been held liable when it comes to concussion related injuries, etc. With the amount of money that could be at stake, we're to believe that the NFL, Miami, Tua, and the doctor all said "screw it"? The liability changes everything. Can you imagine if there really was some big conspiracy to hide something and something really, really terrible happened on the field? It would be catastrophic for them, and you can be sure these guys don't want to take that kind of chance. I just don't see some grand conspiracy here, it doesn't make sense.

The money the NFL gains from having stars--especially QBs--on the field playing with concussions DWARFS the liability. It's why they've done it for years. This is well documented.

 

[navery12]

Here is the thing, they have already been held liable when it comes to concussion related injuries, etc. With the amount of money that could be at stake, we're to believe that the NFL, Miami, Tua, and the doctor all said "screw it"? The liability changes everything. Can you imagine if there really was some big conspiracy to hide something and something really, really terrible happened on the field? It would be catastrophic for them, and you can be sure these guys don't want to take that kind of chance. I just don't see some grand conspiracy here, it doesn't make sense.

Well then you really need to open your eyes. And not even just to the current situation, there's a long history of the NFL doing exactly that

 

[traitor71]

Well then you really need to open your eyes. And not even just to the current situation, there's a long history of the NFL doing exactly that

So in your mind it's still the North Dallas 40 days then? Massive painkillers, big needles, some doctor who specializes in nothing other than saying "he's good"? They were caught on that stuff and have had to adopt all sorts of safety procedures, etc. Are we really supposed to believe that they would expose themselves to this huge liability for...what exactly? What would the league gain here vs what they could lose? This particular situation is going to have to be made totally transparent, so we will all see what happened. It's just too public now for this stuff to be rigged up, there is too much for them to lose.

I can see wanting to question the protocols. I'm sure there are many people with many ideas as to what may or may not need to be included in them, but I don't see a value for the league in trying to dodge them.

 

[navery12]

So in your mind it's still the North Dallas 40 days then? Massive painkillers, big needles, some doctor who specializes in nothing other than saying "he's good"? They were caught on that stuff and have had to adopt all sorts of safety procedures, etc. Are we really supposed to believe that they would expose themselves to this huge liability for...what exactly? What would the league gain here vs what they could lose? This particular situation is going to have to be made totally transparent, so we will all see what happened. It's just too public now for this stuff to be rigged up, there is too much for them to lose.

I don't know, it's really hard to know who to believe. On one hand you have all these NFL players coming out and talking about how much of a sham the concussion protocol is and how easy it is to manipulate. And on the other hand you have traitor71 who doesn't believe the NFL would ever lie. Very, very tough call

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Here is the thing, they have already been held liable when it comes to concussion related injuries, etc. With the amount of money that could be at stake, we're to believe that the NFL, Miami, Tua, and the doctor all said "screw it"? The liability changes everything. Can you imagine if there really was some big conspiracy to hide something and something really, really terrible happened on the field? It would be catastrophic for them, and you can be sure these guys don't want to take that kind of chance. I just don't see some grand conspiracy here, it doesn't make sense.

It doesn't require any sort of grand conspiracy, what are you talking about? It takes a wink and a nod and a player who wants to get back on the field.

Incidentally, during the settlement of the concussion litigation, the NFL took the position that payouts to black players should be reduced because they have less brainpower to damage, so it's not like the NFL is above being garbaggio.

I guess we'll see.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I didn't watch. Now I don't want to. But you are ahead of the curve. Talking heads are all over this today.

Tua did kinda do the David Byrnes Stop Making Sense hand moving thingy.

 

[BlueMAB]

That's just ridiculous. Seriously. When guys are cleared at every step of the way, you don't just act like a parent telling their kid they can't go out "because". The agreed upon guidelines are there, and they work both ways.

Let's ask Tua if the guidelines worked. We can see if he still has the cognitive ability to even answer.

 

[traitor71]

I don't know, it's really hard to know who to believe. On one hand you have all these NFL players coming out and talking about how much of a sham the concussion protocol is and how easy it is to manipulate. And on the other hand you have traitor71 who doesn't believe the NFL would ever lie. Very, very tough call

It doesn't require any sort of grand conspiracy, what are you talking about? It takes a wink and a nod and a player who wants to get back on the field.

Incidentally, during the settlement of the concussion litigation, the NFL took the position that payouts to black players should be reduced because they have less brainpower to damage, so it's not like the NFL is above being garbaggio.

I guess we'll see.

They have said all results of this investigation will be made public, so we are all going to find out. I get that everyone loves to rush to judgement, but it usually helps to have all the info on hand. I just really want to know what they would gain from this? Look at the flak they are catching now, it will be off the charts if it comes out they actually did something here.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

We can just agree to disagree but, again, your argument depends on the NFL acting in good faith and I just don't think there's any track record whatsoever that would support that assumption, and most historical evidence is to the contrary.

 

[BlueMAB]

We can just agree to disagree but, again, your argument depends on the NFL acting in good faith and I just don't think there's any track record whatsoever that would support that assumption, and most historical evidence is to the contrary.

It also (incorrectly) assumes the NFL and the Dolphins have nothing to gain with a star QB on the field instead of on the sidelines.

 

[traitor71]

I don't know, it's really hard to know who to believe. On one hand you have all these NFL players coming out and talking about how much of a sham the concussion protocol is and how easy it is to manipulate. And on the other hand you have traitor71 who doesn't believe the NFL would ever lie. Very, very tough call

So what are the procedures used to manipulate these protocols that all these players are detailing? Are you saying that the guys who are the most up in arms about safety are the ones who are good with faking it? It's one thing for a guy to say "I feel fine", but some of this stuff can't be faked. Light sensitivity, reflexes, visual problems. That gets caught by a specialist, if they want to catch it, that is. I just keep wondering what they would gain from this. A regular season game? Tua? That's worth the trouble this could bring? Now if you're going to tell me this is widespread, that nothing has changed, that it's all fake, and it gets proven? Fry em all, but let's see the info first. That is all I am saying here.

 

[superjohn]

It doesn't require any sort of grand conspiracy, what are you talking about? It takes a wink and a nod and a player who wants to get back on the field.

Incidentally, during the settlement of the concussion litigation, the NFL took the position that payouts to black players should be reduced because they have less brainpower to damage, so it's not like the NFL is above being garbaggio.

I guess we'll see.

The problem is we probably won't see, we don't seem to find about this stuff until years later or people blow the whistle and get taken to the woodshed. The powerful are pretty damn good at burying stuff.

 

[navery12]

So what are the procedures used to manipulate these protocols that all these players are detailing? Are you saying that the guys who are the most up in arms about safety are the ones who are good with faking it? It's one thing for a guy to say "I feel fine", but some of this stuff can't be faked. Light sensitivity, reflexes, visual problems. That gets caught by a specialist, if they want to catch it, that is. I just keep wondering what they would gain from this. A regular season game? Tua? That's worth the trouble this could bring? Now if you're going to tell me this is widespread, that nothing has changed, that it's all fake, and it gets proven? Fry em all, but let's see the info first. That is all I am saying here.

This part in bold is the disconnect between you and the ones you're replying to. What we're saying is the NFL/medical staff/players all don't want to catch it, so they're not looking for it all that hard. It doesn't even need to be some big conspiracy operation, the concussion protocol is just a checklist of symptoms

The NFL gains eyeballs from having Tua play, especially when it's a primetime game. Are you turning on the game to watch Teddy Bridgewater play last night?

 

[HuskyHawk]

The problem is we probably won't see, we don't seem to find about this stuff until years later or people blow the whistle and get taken to the woodshed. The powerful are pretty damn good at burying stuff.

I think they are doing a better job than they used to. It’s not the old days. As for the powerful, as long as you include the union, sure. They’re in on anything that’s happening. The players, ultimately, don’t want a strict protocol it seems. Tua could have ruled himself out. It’s a bit like steroids in baseball in that way. As for broad conspiracies, I’d suggest we also consider that Miami has a crap organization that has been pretty cavalier with a lot of rules lately.

 

[BGesus4]

Is there even a sport if the NFL is super stringent on enforcing what they say they well with concussions?

Pretty sure the league realizes the answer is no.

 

[aburks41]

Now do CTE statistics

The problem with football isn't the big concussions, it's the minor, constant mini head trauma that players go through nearly every play. Their helmets are constantly banging. Even if they aren't getting a concussion on a play like Tua's, that constant helmet bashing has got to be terrible over an entire season. That's hundreds (or thousands) of mini helmet hits each year. No wonder why their brains turn to mush

You can't stop that unless you cancel football. And that's never going to happen. It's the most popular sport in the country and it's only getting more and more popular.

 

[traitor71]

This part in bold is the disconnect between you and the ones you're replying to. What we're saying is the NFL/medical staff/players all don't want to catch it, so they're not looking for it all that hard. It doesn't even need to be some big conspiracy operation, the concussion protocol is just a checklist of symptoms

The NFL gains eyeballs from having Tua play, especially when it's a primetime game. Are you turning on the game to watch Teddy Bridgewater play last night?

There is no disconnect. You are of the belief they are faking all of it. I don't think they are.The NFL head medical doctor said the results of this investigation will be made public upon completion, so let's see what they have. If there are irregularities, then let's look at how many players have entered protocol, take the ones who were cleared to return, and compare the reports to Tua's. That should give us some idea if it is all a scam, on the up and up, or incompetence on the part of some specialist. I'm just simply against all of the rush to judgement.

 

[superjohn]

I think they are doing a better job than they used to. It’s not the old days. As for the powerful, as long as you include the union, sure. They’re in on anything that’s happening. The players, ultimately, don’t want a strict protocol it seems. Tua could have ruled himself out. It’s a bit like steroids in baseball in that way. As for broad conspiracies, I’d suggest we also consider that Miami has a crap organization that has been pretty cavalier with a lot of rules lately.

It can't be the responsibility of the player to rule themselves out, that's the entire point of having regulations for this sort of stuff. It's almost like the drunk driver deciding he's okay to drive.

I don't trust the NFL to ever do the right thing, the only time they clean things up a bit is when there's massive litigation and public embarrassment, in other words it's hurting their bottom line.

 

[husky429]

There is no disconnect. You are of the belief they are faking all of it. I don't think they are.The NFL head medical doctor said the results of this investigation will be made public upon completion, so let's see what they have. If there are irregularities, then let's look at how many players have entered protocol, take the ones who were cleared to return, and compare the reports to Tua's. That should give us some idea if it is all a scam, on the up and up, or incompetence on the part of some specialist. I'm just simply against all of the rush to judgement.

You're really missing the point and it has been explained to you a dozen times. Play any football back in the day?

 

[BGesus4]

The problem with football isn't the big concussions, it's the minor, constant mini head trauma that players go through nearly every play. Their helmets are constantly banging. Even if they aren't getting a concussion on a play like Tua's, that constant helmet bashing has got to be terrible over an entire season. That's hundreds (or thousands) of mini helmet hits each year. No wonder why their brains turn to mush

You can't stop that unless you cancel football. And that's never going to happen. It's the most popular sport in the country and it's only getting more and more popular.

Yeah, I remember reading that lineman actually have the most problems because they have so many mini head traumas every game

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

The problem is we probably won't see, we don't seem to find about this stuff until years later or people blow the whistle and get taken to the woodshed. The powerful are pretty damn good at burying stuff.

Yeah when I said "we'll see" it was more "we'll see if the NFL does anything besides the standard 'wait for this to blow over'" rigmarole.

 

[traitor71]

You're really missing the point and it has been explained to you a dozen times. Play any football back in the day?

Oh I see the point. There are a lot of people who have made up their minds and that is that. We live in a rush to judgement culture, it's just how it is.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Oh I see the point. There are a lot of people who have made up their minds and that is that. We live in a rush to judgement culture, it's just how it is.

That's also not what's happening. The NFL has a pretty horrendous track record when it comes to honesty and forthrightness. People are right to be skeptical that that will change here. You're the only one proceeding from the default assumption that the NFL is suddenly going to do a 180 and do the right thing. You're entitled to give this multi-billion dollar enterprise the benefit of the doubt when they don't deserve it, but not everyone is going to do that.

 

[UCSouth]

I don't know, it's really hard to know who to believe. On one hand you have all these NFL players coming out and talking about how much of a sham the concussion protocol is and how easy it is to manipulate. And on the other hand you have traitor71 who doesn't believe the NFL would ever lie. Very, very tough call

I do believe that @traitor71 has climbed the hill and is standing at the doorstep

 

[traitor71]

That's also not what's happening. The NFL has a pretty horrendous track record when it comes to honesty and forthrightness. People are right to be skeptical that that will change here. You're the only one proceeding from the default assumption that the NFL is suddenly going to do a 180 and do the right thing. You're entitled to give this multi-billion dollar enterprise the benefit of the doubt when they don't deserve it, but not everyone is going to do that.

I'm not asking anyone to do that, everyone is free to have their own beliefs. I just don't see how they profit from this. And if they really are hiding something, then a lot of people are going to have to answer for it, and their business is going to take a hit. I just think now that the light is shining on this, it makes more financial sense to play by the rules, not go against them. They will not get off easily the next time there is litigation. They have to be aware of that.