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Tua

superjohn said:
And I'm just stating the fact he had a head injury on the play against the Bills we're all talking about and the team and Tua tried to play it off as a back injury.

He never should've returned to that game after the head injury and never should've played on Thursday because of the head injury.
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I guess we will see what all the reports end up revealing. At some point we should know what the mistakes were, what the actual injuries were, and what happened in the time after the game when he was monitored. At the moment, the NFLPA is saying incompetence, and I am sure they will have more to say as things progress. There will be a lot of punishments handed out if none of the rules were adhered to.
 
borninansonia said:
I suspect that bicycle racing may have the highest injury numbers, including deaths.
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I wonder where motocross, and other motorcycle related sports rank? This quote comes from an article that compared motocross to high school football.

“Football's .003 injuries per hour translates to 3.0 injuries per thousand hours, as compared to the 94.5 per thousand attributed to MX.”
 
Edward Sargent said:
So when I added that this was a business decision her response was of course that it wasn't a very good business decision was it?
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No it wasn’t but we all know the Captains of Industry don’t always make decisions best for business now do they
 
SCNCHuskie said:
I wonder where motocross, and other motorcycle related sports rank? This quote comes from an article that compared motocross to high school football.

“Football's .003 injuries per hour translates to 3.0 injuries per thousand hours, as compared to the 94.5 per thousand attributed to MX.”
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I kept OSHA records for several years define your injuries
 
It just doesn’t make sense to me. How can an independent neurologist with expertise and a license to protect clear Tua to play if he so clearly had a concussion. What was the neurologist (not) seeing?
 
Rocktheworld said:
It just doesn’t make sense to me. How can an independent neurologist with expertise and a license to protect clear Tua to play if he so clearly had a concussion. What was the neurologist (not) seeing?
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I imagine we will find out in a few days. It's not always as clear as it looks on TV. What we saw in the Cincy game was as clear as it can be, but the Buffalo incident is less clear. They say it was his back that caused him to stumble, and that is possible. It's also possible people lied or were incompetent, and it led to where we are now. They say the consultant didn't understand their role and made mistakes. It makes you wonder what the consultant's level of experience is, have they served in this role before, etc. We are going to get a lot more information, especially when Tua returns to some level of activity.

Some people seem to think I am being combative on this. I just think there is a lot of info we need to hear before we fire and crush everyone involved.
 
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traitor71 said:
I imagine we will find out in a few days. It's not always as clear as it looks on TV. What we saw in the Cincy game was as clear as it can be, but the Buffalo incident is less clear. They say it was his back that caused him to stumble, and that is possible. It's also possible people lied or were incompetent, and it led to where we are now. They say the consultant didn't understand their role and made mistakes. It makes you wonder what the consultant's level of experience is, have they served in this role before, etc. We are going to get a lot more information, especially when Tua returns to some level of activity.

Some people seem to think I am being combative on this. I just think there is a lot of info we need to hear before we fire and crush everyone involved.
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A neurologist is a neurologist. They know how to evaluate for concussion. The protocols and questions they have them follow can’t be too difficult to follow. The NFL doesn’t need to instruct a neurologist on what the signs of concussion are. I don’t know what kind of poor training or incompetency at this level of sports medicine could lead to such an apparently poor decision, again, by someone with no skin in the game other than protecting their license. I’m not sure what neurologist would sign up for such a role without being confident in their knowledge and skills.
 
Rocktheworld said:
A neurologist is a neurologist. They know how to evaluate for concussion. The protocols and questions they have them follow can’t be too difficult to follow. The NFL doesn’t need to instruct a neurologist on what the signs of concussion are. I don’t know what kind of poor training or incompetency at this level of sports medicine could lead to such an apparently poor decision, again, by someone with no skin in the game other than protecting their license. I’m not sure what neurologist would sign up for such a role without being confident in their knowledge and skills.
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I think that is why the NFLPA said the consultant was "hostile" during the interview. They clearly believe he acted improperly, and he probably took exception to that.
 
Watching some of the coverage the day after, everyone was saying that the independent consultant weighs in and can make recommendations but it is the team doctor (or some other title but the important part is that it is an employee of the team) who has the final, definitive decision. They were all saying how they believed this is a huge conflict of interest. Were they all incorrect in their understanding of the decision-making process?
 
traitor71 said:
I imagine we will find out in a few days. It's not always as clear as it looks on TV. What we saw in the Cincy game was as clear as it can be, but the Buffalo incident is less clear. They say it was his back that caused him to stumble, and that is possible. It's also possible people lied or were incompetent, and it led to where we are now. They say the consultant didn't understand their role and made mistakes. It makes you wonder what the consultant's level of experience is, have they served in this role before, etc. We are going to get a lot more information, especially when Tua returns to some level of activity.

Some people seem to think I am being combative on this. I just think there is a lot of info we need to hear before we fire and crush everyone involved.
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Part of their protocol is observation, Tua showed just about every sign of a head injury in the Bills game on the play we're talking about and no signs of a back injury which they claim was what he was reacting to after the play.
 
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superjohn said:
Part of their protocol is observation, Tua showed just about every sign of a head injury in the Bills game on the play we're talking about and no signs of a back injury which they claim was what he was reacting to after the play.
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I can only go off of my own experience with a back injury. Even after recovery it's not impossible for a sudden movement to trigger pain, a spasm, etc. When that happens, you're gonna stagger. That's why I accept the possibility of it being a factor here. I have no way of knowing for sure that is what happened, I just know it is possible. I've also been through concussion protocol at the high school level with someone over the last month, so I have a much better understanding of how it all works than I ever did. Doesn't make me an expert by any means, but it has definitely made me a non believer in the idea of an eye test telling us if someone is concussed or not. Some of it can be so subtle, which is why that first examination is so key to the process.
 
traitor71 said:
I

I can only go off of my own experience with a back injury. Even after recovery it's not impossible for a sudden movement to trigger pain, a spasm, etc. When that happens, you're gonna stagger. That's why I accept the possibility of it being a factor here. I have no way of knowing for sure that is what happened, I just know it is possible. I've also been through concussion protocol at the high school level with someone over the last month, so I have a much better understanding of how it all works than I ever did. Doesn't make me an expert by any means, but it has definitely made me a non believer in the idea of an eye test telling us if someone is concussed or not. Some of it can be so subtle, which is why that first examination is so key to the process.
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Yep. After whacking your head on the ground you shake the cobwebs out, fall over, woozily stumble around, and grab at your head when it's a back injury.
 
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uconngb said:
The injuries are exactly the reasons the contracts aren’t guaranteed. In baseball, those massive contracts are all insurable. I don’t know exactly how it works, but I know the Sox aren’t crying that Sale has been injured so frequently….,.at least they are getting some return on his awful contract.

We all know none of these massive contracts make sense. But they certainly don’t make sense if there is a high likelihood the player will never be able to honor it due to injury and the team can’t insure itself against same.
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I don’t that’s fully true. Yes, a guy can get injury and then not be the same player anymore. Kind of like a last place Red Sox probably preferring that Sale to be out rather than not as good. But my understanding is that most NFL contracts are guaranteed for injury.
 
Edward Sargent said:
I kept OSHA records for several years define your injuries
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I do not recall what the article stated. I only did a cursory search and was not overly interested, I was just surprised it was not listed with all the other sports as it relates to injuries.
 
traitor71 said:
I think that is why the NFLPA said the consultant was "hostile" during the interview. They clearly believe he acted improperly, and he probably took exception to that.
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Interesting
 
What's the big deal here? We went through all this 10 years ago. Nothing to see here, it will all blow over in a few weeks.
 
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CardiacAndre7 said:
Odd take
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It's reality. They even made a Will Smith movie about it. If people really cared about this they would do something real. Instead, we get some denial and hand-wringing for awhile then back to business as usual. Rinse, repeat.
 
Waquoit said:
It's reality. They even made a Will Smith movie about it. If people really cared about this they would do something real. Instead, we get some denial and hand-wringing for awhile then back to business as usual. Rinse, repeat.
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The problem is the "something real" would end the sport. There's no way to avoid head injuries/concussions and they aren't going to sit players for 3 months. They won't even follow their very basic protocols which aren't even all that serious or close to erring on the side of caution.
 
superjohn said:
The problem is the "something real" would end the sport. There's no way to avoid head injuries/concussions and they aren't going to sit players for 3 months. They won't even follow their very basic protocols which aren't even all that serious or close to erring on the side of caution.
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Agreed. There's simply no way to safely play football. Upgrade helmets and add targetting rules all you want. At the end of the day, 250-350lb men are still smashing into each other. A real effort at protecting player's health means ending the sport.
 
Waquoit said:
It's reality. They even made a Will Smith movie about it. If people really cared about this they would do something real. Instead, we get some denial and hand-wringing for awhile then back to business as usual. Rinse, repeat.
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I think people care, but money trumps it all.

I still stand by my statement that Football will be all but done in a generation.
 
superjohn said:
The problem is the "something real" would end the sport. There's no way to avoid head injuries/concussions and they aren't going to sit players for 3 months. They won't even follow their very basic protocols which aren't even all that serious or close to erring on the side of caution.
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Nobody wants to end the sport. There is more they could do, they have done some. Helmets do get better. They expanded rosters, practice squad and made it easier to activate guys from the practice squad. Could do more of that. They need to tighten up the evaluations it seems, make them more independent. I think mandatory education for all players, if they don't do that now, makes sense (many would ignore it).

Simple reality is it's a high risk occupation and they are choosing to engage in it. Car racing is arguably worse, certainly it was. Lots of dangerous occupations.
 
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superjohn said:
Your two statements are incongruous.
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I think in around 25 years time, if there is not any significant improvements, and former players continue to show increased evidence of CTE and other long term ailments, the tide will eventually turn.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Nobody wants to end the sport. There is more they could do, they have done some. Helmets do get better. They expanded rosters, practice squad and made it easier to activate guys from the practice squad. Could do more of that. They need to tighten up the evaluations it seems, make them more independent. I think mandatory education for all players, if they don't do that now, makes sense (many would ignore it).

Simple reality is it's a high risk occupation and they are choosing to engage in it. Car racing is arguably worse, certainly it was. Lots of dangerous occupations.
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Sure but it's not going to stop players from getting head injuries and playing with head injuries. The CTE doc they made the Hollywood movie about says it takes 3 months before the brain heals after a concussion and you should resume activities. Players will continue to waste away and die early from CTE.
Changing the helmets and this weak protocol they don't even adhere to will have little to no impact. If anything it may be even worse now that they're playing more games and on quicker turnarounds.

It's just something we accept because the money is huge and almost everyone loves football.
 
superjohn said:
Sure but it's not going to stop players from getting head injuries and playing with head injuries. The CTE doc they made the Hollywood movie about says it takes 3 months before the brain heals after a concussion and you should resume activities. Players will continue to waste away and die early from CTE.
Changing the helmets and this weak protocol they don't even adhere to will have little to no impact. If anything it may be even worse now that they're playing more games and on quicker turnarounds.

It's just something we accept because the money is huge and almost everyone loves football.
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That's why they need even more roster expansion options. The extra game didn't help. They need to add better protocols in college, and HS. If I remember the long article I read on it, they believe those traumatic brain injuries to kids are vastly worse in terms of things like CTE. It's all cumulative. Youth football...that's a place to really do better. And probably hockey too. And boxing...
 
Greedo said:
This is very true. The high school I teach at has a bad football team. Like, loses games worse than UConn bad. They also routinely win state championships in other sports. Yet, football is king. The team is glorified with over the top extravagant pep rallies. Large numbers of people still go to the games. As long as football teams continue to be treated this way, kids will want to play, and parents will want to relive their former glory through their kids.
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I worked at a high school in Kansas and their football team hadn’t had a winning season in 20 years (they had 6 wins over past 4 years)yet they spent god knows how many millions of dollars building a state of the art football stadium. The athletic department said they have sold out every home game for the past 20 years + and the whole town shuts down on Friday for football games.

This isn’t even Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Oklahoma, etc. football isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. It’s a religion and lifestyle in a large portion of the country
 
methodology said:
I worked at a high school in Kansas and their football team hadn’t had a winning season in 20 years (they had 6 wins over past 4 years)yet they spent god knows how many millions of dollars building a state of the art football stadium. The athletic department said they have sold out every home game for the past 20 years + and the whole town shuts down on Friday for football games.

This isn’t even Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Oklahoma, etc. football isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. It’s a religion and lifestyle in a large portion of the country
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That has to be in Leawood.
 
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