Ramona Shelburne weighs into Parker-Auriemma

[Bestiarius]

Regarding Ramoaner (sp?), simply a Los Angeles writer, and graduate of El Camino Real High School, in a blatant attempt to increase her following with Los Angeles Sparks fans. There's more to the selection process than talent.

 

[Carnac]

I wish the outcry about the "travesty of justice" with Candace Parker would go away.... but of course it will not..... I really like Candace... and I like her game ... I really do. But it is absolutely NOT her birthright to get passage onto the Olympic team..... (assuming this mention is all about her not being named to the team)..... From all the feedback and blowback I have seen and heard about this perceived injustice, the argument is that it was an easy call to name her to the team..... after all she IS one of the best players in the country.... and that should pay her freight onto the team.

But as an uber talented graduating jobseeker wunderkind must be a good fit for his/her prospective employer, a basketball player must be a good fit for her team. This includes raw talent, ability and attitude to be a good team player, chemistry with teammates and coaches, etc.... and the list goes beyond that. The annals of recent basketball history are littered with examples of teams NOT taking the best players as judged by just talent. There was a recent men's olympic team, i believe, in the 90s.... which was made up of different combinations of players who were used to playing ball with each other..... coupling all star forwards with their NBA team's point guard. Bobby Knight was famous for not only taking his own Indiana players to international competition (who were not commensurate talent wise with others who were better) but actually "snubbing" (to use the same term used here) Charles Barkley in the 1984 olympic trials and leaving him off the team..... when he by all accounts was THE dominant forward at the trials and was the best at that position. Knight chose for the team instead a little known forward from Vanderbilt (Jeff Somebody... i forget).... who never played a minute in the NBA.....

Coach K has done the same thing with favoring his Duke players ... on the women's side, Pat Summit herself chose 2 of her own Tennessee players for the 84 olympics..... there were not any other NCAA teams who had more players named to Pat's olympic team than that..... and this is 1984, 3 years before the Lady Vols won their first NCAA title.... in 84 La Tech was big.... USC had just won back to back championships.... Tennessee had not gotten to the top yet, but there they were represented with 16 percent of the olympic roster.....

The point is.... when choosing a team, you do not necessarily choose the 12 best players..... the 12 best athletes.... there are many factors which go into the selection process,,,, and although i understand the controversy at a fan level, I honestly do not understand why Geno is being vilified over Candace's omission. It was the decision of the board, and NOT Geno's decision .... that of player personnel. And, IF you believe that that is nonsense ... that HE chooses the players, then why can't he choose the team members he wants as opposed to what others say he must do.

I would no more second guess the olympic committee (or Geno if it was him) for choosing the team they chose than I would second guessing Coach K, Bobby Knight, or Pat Summit in building their rosters with those with whom they felt most comfortable.

Very well written!! Points made! I'll preface this take by stating that I like Parker, I always have (but I like Geno too). I'm a Sparks fan. I hope she has the best game of her entire professional career tomorrow night. I'm hoping she posts a huge triple double, and leads the Sparks to a win.

That being said, I Especially like your point of players not having a "birthright" for inclusion on the team, and that there are more factors than mere "raw talent" that are factored into the selection process. As others have suggested, this is old news, and really does need to fade to black. One thing is for sure, Geno will have absolutely nothing to do with the 2020 team or the selection of players. Let's see if Parker is selected to that team by Staley or the selection committee.

 

[oldude]

Very well written!! Points made! Especially your point of players not having a "birthright" for inclusion on the team, and that there are more factors than mere "raw talent" that are factored into the selection process. As others have suggested, this is old news, and really does need to fade to black. One thing is for sure, Geno will have absolutely nothing to do with the 2020 team or the selection of players. Let's see if Parker is selected to that team by Staley or the selection committee.

A slight correction. Geno is a consultant to Dawn for the 2020 Olympic team.

 

[Bestiarius]

A slight correction. Geno is a consultant to Dawn for the 2020 Olympic team.

I guess it will still be his fault then.

 

[EricLA]

I guess it will still be his fault then.

And I'm sure some other fans will still find a way to blame Geno, in spite of the juvenile tweet following her childish decision:

 

[msf22b]

Yea, you're pretty out to lunch here maestro. Might want to put down the baton on this one.

They've just pulled me out of retirement to conduct two programs, so it ain't going down anytime soon.

I notice a lack of specificity in your concerns...Would you like to quantify them?

 

[JoePgh]

Ms Shelbourne's jab will certainly appear gratuitous to fervent UCONN fans,
but this is no "petty grievance."

Her incendiary remarks may be off-base or flat untrue about coach, but some combination of so-called "experts" made one of the dumbest, irrational and mean-spirited calls of the century by leaving Candace off the team...period.

And she's been taking it to us (and them) and especially Minny ever since.

And to hear talk of "attitude to be a good team player, chemistry with teammates and coaches" and the like (as I predicted on a different thread)
just compounds the irrationality of the call.

UConn fans appear petty and small-minded to the rest of the country in trying to defend the indefensible.

Leave it be, don't rise to the bait...and not for the usually stated reason.

I really admire the inner fortitude of this woman for not letting it destroy her.

Have you ever witnessed (or perhaps been part of) a workplace situation where a very talented and productive employee simply did not work well with a particular boss, and eventually that situation ended with the employee and the boss being separated (through dismissal, transfer, reorganization, the employee resigning because he/she is passed over for promotion, etc.)?

I have witnessed many of those situations and have been part of a few of them, and in my experience, the boss usually wins (and should win) in those situations. The boss has accountability for the team as a whole, and "fairness" to individual employees has to take a back seat to the smooth functioning of the whole team. It may be that the employee would work better with another boss, or it may be that the employee (despite his/her talent) simply has trouble working as a team member in any situation. Either way, if someone has to "bend" to accommodate the other personality, it is and should be the employee rather than the boss who does that.

In this case, Geno as coach and Candace as player were together for the 2012 London Olympics, and by all indications it did not end well, and left Geno with the belief that he did not want a repetition of that situation in 2016. Although he did not choose the team himself, he certainly had a strong voice (probably the strongest voice) in making recommendations to those who did, and I believe he recommended against Candace's selection simply to avoid a repetition of the London situation. By a split vote, they decided (apparently) to accede to their head coach's wishes. I don't see that anyone did anything wrong -- certainly nothing that doesn't happen at least occasionally in every workplace in America.

I suspect that Candace has respect for Geno's talents as a basketball coach, even though she never figured out (and it was "on her", not on him, to figure it out) how to work with him productively. She seems to work very well with Brian Agler, the LA Sparks' coach, and I doubt that his basketball wisdom is very different than Geno's. I notice that Candace is successfully scoring on a lot of backdoor plays against Minnesota -- something that was always a trademark of Geno's offense. I will bet that she is happy finally to have a coach (like she never had in Knoxville) who knows how to make that work, and whom she can comfortably work for.

Probably Geno also wishes that he could have found a way to use Candace productively, but apparently it never happened in London and he didn't think it would happen in 2016, so he chose to try to avoid the problem. I can't blame him, and I can't blame her.

 

[CL82]

Read the comments she's being taken to task for the ridiculous and unsubstantiated cheap shot.

PS Is that any of you guys?

 

[Waquoit]

If Geno wanted her on the team, she would have been on the team. Having said that, it's not anyone's birthright to be on a team especially when they are hostile to the coach.

 

[eebmg]

As far as I can tell, the main motivation of the article is to try to sell the WNBA finals as a great rivalry and she uses every trick of the trade (some honorable and some less so) to make the story go. There is a lot of tortured reasoning in the article but as far as I am concerned, the series speaks for itself It is clear that Candice Parker felt snubbed and that I can imagine that the UConn alumnae on the Lynx might be more amped up as a representative of Geno's Legacy.

What I found interesting is that as an NBA reporter, she did not contrast the greatness of the rivalry with the
sad state of the NBA where Golden State can just punch it's ticket for the next 3-5 years but I guess she cant upset the apple cart where her bread is buttered.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Very well written!! Points made! Ill preface this take by stating that I like Parker, I always have (but I like Geno too). I'm a Sparks fan. I hope she has the best game of her entire professional career tonight. I'm hoping she posts a huge triple double, and leads the Sparks to a win.

That being said, I Especially like your point of players not having a "birthright" for inclusion on the team, and that there are more factors than mere "raw talent" that are factored into the selection process. As others have suggested, this is old news, and really does need to fade to black. One thing is for sure, Geno will have absolutely nothing to do with the 2020 team or the selection of players. Let's see if Parker is selected to that team by Staley or the selection committee.

Thx Scoop..... ya, a shame because I really like Parker and her game as well..... you know..... there is nothing wrong with ego, and having big ego.... in fact I think in the hoops biz you need one or else you may be trampled.... just wish Candace didn't feel the need to take her cause public on national campaign.... It is OK if she sees it as necessary, but wish she didn't feel the need to bring out the artillery

 

[CocoHusky]

Read the comments she's being taken to task for the ridiculous and unsubstantiated cheap shot.

PS Is that any of you guys?

Probably.

 

[CocoHusky]

If Geno wanted her on the team, she would have been on the team. Having said that, it's not anyone's birthright to be on a team especially when they are hostile to the coach.

Hostile to the coach? How? When? Who?

 

[Bayareahusky]

A few errors here:
1) 1984 Charles Barkley did not dominate the USA Trials. Sam Perkins, Wayman Tisdale & Joe Kline did at the forward position and were chosen for the team.
2) Jeff's last name is Turner and he played in the NBA for several years 1984-87 and 1989-96.
3) Coach K has had 2 Duke players make the team in the 3 Olympic he was head coach. Kyrie Irving (2016) and Carlos Boozer (2008 & 2012). Both were NBA All- Star in the year they made the Olympic team. In the case of Boozer he was also on the 2004 Olympic team coached by Larry Brown.
4) Bobby Knight coached the 1984 Olympic team and on that team was one of his players who was Steve Alford.

Yes thank you for feedback.... of course sports forums are for opinions..... it always amazes me the way sports and fan opinions on sports have gotten so polarized and absolute..... I turn on ESPN Mondays and see so many stories on Tom Brady LeBron James, etc.... thank goodness Tony Romo retired.... so we will not have to put up with the similar over-focus on what he eats for breakfast.....

And on the opinion front..... how many times does ESPN put it out there..... the question of IS THIS OR THAT NFL QUARTERBACK THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME??? Is Steph Curry the GOAT on basis of great game he had or great series? Now, my quasi rhetorical question is ..... why do we see these questions asked in the public forum? Is it because we REALLY want to know whether we all consider LeBron to be better than Jordan, or at least we need to know whether if it is down to that last shot, do we want Steph taking it, or LeBron or Michael or Larry? or Magic? Do we seek the opinion on this? Or, do the sports shows seek to mobilize an absolute consensus as to what is, and who is RIGHT in this line of hypothetical questioning.....

It is interesting..... for my part, i am actually mild mannered and accepting of everyone's opinion..... what people think is their business, and it is interesting to hear and listen to the processing of their individual opinions.....

Coco Husky thank you for your words here..... I am not going to battle you here on specifics.... though from what I remember following 84 trials everyday and going back now on accounts of them, the forwards you mention didn't outplay.... no no i said i wouldn't second guess anyones opinions..... (that was a joke) ... well sort of....

And thank you for the correction on Jeff Turner.... my bad you are absolutely correct damn i hate being wrong Keep posting love your comments

 

[Bayareahusky]

Have you ever witnessed (or perhaps been part of) a workplace situation where a very talented and productive employee simply did not work well with a particular boss, and eventually that situation ended with the employee and the boss being separated (through dismissal, transfer, reorganization, the employee resigning because he/she is passed over for promotion, etc.)?

I have witnessed many of those situations and have been part of a few of them, and in my experience, the boss usually wins (and should win) in those situations. The boss has accountability for the team as a whole, and "fairness" to individual employees has to take a back seat to the smooth functioning of the whole team. It may be that the employee would work better with another boss, or it may be that the employee (despite his/her talent) simply has trouble working as a team member in any situation. Either way, if someone has to "bend" to accommodate the other personality, it is and should be the employee rather than the boss who does that.

In this case, Geno as coach and Candace as player were together for the 2012 London Olympics, and by all indications it did not end well, and left Geno with the belief that he did not want a repetition of that situation in 2016. Although he did not choose the team himself, he certainly had a strong voice (probably the strongest voice) in making recommendations to those who did, and I believe he recommended against Candace's selection simply to avoid a repetition of the London situation. By a split vote, they decided (apparently) to accede to their head coach's wishes. I don't see that anyone did anything wrong -- certainly nothing that doesn't happen at least occasionally in every workplace in America.

I suspect that Candace has respect for Geno's talents as a basketball coach, even though she never figured out (and it was "on her", not on him, to figure it out) how to work with him productively. She seems to work very well with Brian Agler, the LA Sparks' coach, and I doubt that his basketball wisdom is very different than Geno's. I notice that Candace is successfully scoring on a lot of backdoor plays against Minnesota -- something that was always a trademark of Geno's offense. I will bet that she is happy finally to have a coach (like she never had in Knoxville) who knows how to make that work, and whom she can comfortably work for.

Probably Geno also wishes that he could have found a way to use Candace productively, but apparently it never happened in London and he didn't think it would happen in 2016, so he chose to try to avoid the problem. I can't blame him, and I can't blame her.

Great point JP... wonderful.... yeah i wish as well they could have met somewhere in the middle.... as Dr Phil says oh i hate to quote him!!! "No matter how flat a pancake is it still has two sides"

 

[Alydar]

Obviously there is a stink of pandering when an LA-based sportswriter cries foul over Parker's absence from the Olympic team. But unless we know all the story, including what went on during the 2012 games, we can't do more than speculate.

But I will comment on the accusation by Shelburne that a reason for it was the feud between Geno and Pat. If that were the case then someone has to explain how both Parker and Catchings made it on the 2012 team and how Catchings made the 2016 team. That red herring is just a way of avoiding the obvious conclusion that this is a problem between Geno and/or the selection committee, and Parker personally. It has nothing to do with Tennessee. And since a lack of talent is off the table then the reason has to have something to do with Parker off the court. Whether it's Parker/Geno, Parker/USAB or Parker/teammates is something we have wait to find out. Players don't talk about teammates while they are teammates. Tennessee players and coaches had nothing but high praise for DeShields and Cooper when they were on the roster but as soon as they left we started to hear words like "poison" and phrases like "disruptive influence" used. In recent years I have read a couple of comments that Parker wasn't particularly liked by some of her LV teammates but while they were teammates the public image was "one big happy family". Maybe in another ten years we'll find out the truth about the 2016 Olympic team.

 

[CocoHusky]

Geno did not suddenly (and would not) conspire to keep Candace off the 2016 Olympic team due to some ancient grudge because Geno successfully coached Candace in 2012.

Candace was not left off the 2016 Olympic team because she suddenly became a a "diva" and an intolerable teammate, she was always a diva, but Candace has never been reported to be a bad teammate.

Ramona Shelburne did not suddenly become a hack and incompetent sports journalist because she wrongly took a shot a Geno.

It is entirely possible to question this decision without taking shots at either Geno or Candace the way Romona has done.

 

[oldude]

Geno also made his peace with Pat after she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease making a generous donation to her charity and giving her an emotional embrace at a FF.

 

[CocoHusky]

Yes thank you for feedback.... of course sports forums are for opinions..... it always amazes me the way sports and fan opinions on sports have gotten so polarized and absolute..... I turn on ESPN Mondays and see so many stories on Tom Brady LeBron James, etc.... thank goodness Tony Romo retired.... so we will not have to put up with the similar over-focus on what he eats for breakfast.....

And on the opinion front..... how many times does ESPN put it out there..... the question of IS THIS OR THAT NFL QUARTERBACK THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME??? Is Steph Curry the GOAT on basis of great game he had or great series? Now, my quasi rhetorical question is ..... why do we see these questions asked in the public forum? Is it because we REALLY want to know whether we all consider LeBron to be better than Jordan, or at least we need to know whether if it is down to that last shot, do we want Steph taking it, or LeBron or Michael or Larry? or Magic? Do we seek the opinion on this? Or, do the sports shows seek to mobilize an absolute consensus as to what is, and who is RIGHT in this line of hypothetical questioning.....

It is interesting..... for my part, i am actually mild mannered and accepting of everyone's opinion..... what people think is their business, and it is interesting to hear and listen to the processing of their individual opinions.....

Coco Husky thank you for your words here..... I am not going to battle you here on specifics.... though from what I remember following 84 trials everyday and going back now on accounts of them, the forwards you mention didn't outplay.... no no i said i wouldn't second guess anyones opinions..... (that was a joke) ... well sort of....

And thank you for the correction on Jeff Turner.... my bad you are absolutely correct damn i hate being wrong Keep posting love your comments

Likewise. I neglected to point out for the most part I agree with the opinions you expressed. Specifically the comment about the Olympic team not being a birth right for anyone.
BTW Charles Barkley arrived in Philadelphia in 1984 severely over weight. Luckily the Sixers had Dr. J and Moses Malone who personally whipped the Round Mound of Rebound into shape and taught him how to be a pro.
In college he got by on his talent and conditioning never mattered-until he ran into Bobby Knight. Charles himself has said he did not deserve to make that 1984 team.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Likewise. I neglected to point out for the most part I agree with the opinions you expressed. Specifically the comment about the Olympic team not being a birth right for anyone.
BTW Charles Barkley arrived in Philadelphia in 1984 severely over weight. Luckily the Sixers had Dr. J and Moses Malone who personally whipped the Round Mound of Rebound into shape and taught him how to be a pro.
In college he got by on his talent and conditioning never mattered-until he ran into Bobby Knight. Charles himself has said he did not deserve to make that 1984 team.

I remember DR J trying to take Charles under his wing and immediately have him lose 40 lbs. Charles never did but his knees never gave out as Dr J warned they would....

one good thing about Charles' weight.... his BIG booty meant an undersized NBA forward at 6'4 and 3/4 became 3 inches taller.... better able to box out

 

[triaddukefan]

I'm still waiting to see which Duke players Coach K favored to get onto the Olympic teams.

 

[CL82]

Have you ever witnessed (or perhaps been part of) a workplace situation where a very talented and productive employee simply did not work well with a particular boss, and eventually that situation ended with the employee and the boss being separated (through dismissal, transfer, reorganization, the employee resigning because he/she is passed over for promotion, etc.)?

I have witnessed many of those situations and have been part of a few of them, and in my experience, the boss usually wins (and should win) in those situations. The boss has accountability for the team as a whole, and "fairness" to individual employees has to take a back seat to the smooth functioning of the whole team. It may be that the employee would work better with another boss, or it may be that the employee (despite his/her talent) simply has trouble working as a team member in any situation. Either way, if someone has to "bend" to accommodate the other personality, it is and should be the employee rather than the boss who does that.

In this case, Geno as coach and Candace as player were together for the 2012 London Olympics, and by all indications it did not end well, and left Geno with the belief that he did not want a repetition of that situation in 2016. Although he did not choose the team himself, he certainly had a strong voice (probably the strongest voice) in making recommendations to those who did, and I believe he recommended against Candace's selection simply to avoid a repetition of the London situation. By a split vote, they decided (apparently) to accede to their head coach's wishes. I don't see that anyone did anything wrong -- certainly nothing that doesn't happen at least occasionally in every workplace in America.

I suspect that Candace has respect for Geno's talents as a basketball coach, even though she never figured out (and it was "on her", not on him, to figure it out) how to work with him productively. She seems to work very well with Brian Agler, the LA Sparks' coach, and I doubt that his basketball wisdom is very different than Geno's. I notice that Candace is successfully scoring on a lot of backdoor plays against Minnesota -- something that was always a trademark of Geno's offense. I will bet that she is happy finally to have a coach (like she never had in Knoxville) who knows how to make that work, and whom she can comfortably work for.

Probably Geno also wishes that he could have found a way to use Candace productively, but apparently it never happened in London and he didn't think it would happen in 2016, so he chose to try to avoid the problem. I can't blame him, and I can't blame her.

The scuttlebutt at the time was that Candace's (former/potential) teammates were the ones to express a concern as to whether Candace was a good fit for the team not Geno though I am sure he had input.

The Olympic team had great chemistry. That matters.

Tamika Catchings was on the team. She and Geno have a good working relationship. That kind of lays waste to the whole, it's UConn/Tennessee bad blood.

I chalk the reference up to bad reporting and nothing more.

 

[HuskylnSC]

OK. Here is the real scoop, the skinny, the dirt, the inside info on why Ms. Parker wasn't invited to play in Rio -
www.nicekicks.com/Candace-Parker-left-off-Olympic-team-wears-addidas/

 

[EricLA]

The scuttlebutt at the time was that Candace's (former/potential) teammates were the ones to express a concern as to whether Candace was a good fit for the team not Geno though I am sure he had input.

The Olympic team had great chemistry. That matters.

Tamika Catchings was on the team. She and Geno have a good working relationship. That kind of lays waste to the whole, it's UConn/Tennessee bad blood.

I chalk the reference up to bad reporting and nothing more.

Very well said! Numerous potential reasons as to why she was left off the team. So many self inflicted wounds...!

 

[msf22b]

Have you ever witnessed (or perhaps been part of) a workplace situation where a very talented and productive employee simply did not work well with a particular boss, and eventually that situation ended with the employee and the boss being separated (through dismissal, transfer, reorganization, the employee resigning because he/she is passed over for promotion, etc.)?

I have witnessed many of those situations and have been part of a few of them, and in my experience, the boss usually wins (and should win) in those situations. The boss has accountability for the team as a whole, and "fairness" to individual employees has to take a back seat to the smooth functioning of the whole team. It may be that the employee would work better with another boss, or it may be that the employee (despite his/her talent) simply has trouble working as a team member in any situation. Either way, if someone has to "bend" to accommodate the other personality, it is and should be the employee rather than the boss who does that.

In this case, Geno as coach and Candace as player were together for the 2012 London Olympics, and by all indications it did not end well, and left Geno with the belief that he did not want a repetition of that situation in 2016. Although he did not choose the team himself, he certainly had a strong voice (probably the strongest voice) in making recommendations to those who did, and I believe he recommended against Candace's selection simply to avoid a repetition of the London situation. By a split vote, they decided (apparently) to accede to their head coach's wishes. I don't see that anyone did anything wrong -- certainly nothing that doesn't happen at least occasionally in every workplace in America.

I suspect that Candace has respect for Geno's talents as a basketball coach, even though she never figured out (and it was "on her", not on him, to figure it out) how to work with him productively. She seems to work very well with Brian Agler, the LA Sparks' coach, and I doubt that his basketball wisdom is very different than Geno's. I notice that Candace is successfully scoring on a lot of backdoor plays against Minnesota -- something that was always a trademark of Geno's offense. I will bet that she is happy finally to have a coach (like she never had in Knoxville) who knows how to make that work, and whom she can comfortably work for.

Probably Geno also wishes that he could have found a way to use Candace productively, but apparently it never happened in London and he didn't think it would happen in 2016, so he chose to try to avoid the problem. I can't blame him, and I can't blame her.

Joe

You may be close to the nub of the issue....
From 1974-95, I developed an orchestra in NY that became one of the greatest perhaps the greatest small orchestra in the world, St Luke's.

During that time talent and artistry was paramount; we started with a bunch of druggie's/ hippies and as our engagements became more prominent and middle-class, a few dropped out...weren't pushed. The rest grew up...I remember one wonderful artist telling me Luke's is doomed to success as he slammed the door.

As I said, artistry and talent were paramount, we would do everything and anything to retain the extraordinary ability of our great artists. And don't lecture me about teamwork. teamwork in an orchestra is every bit as subtle as in Geno's most intricate system.

One example in particular comes to mind an individual who was retained despite the most outrageous behind the scenes and off the job behavior. Somehow we helped this artist to survive...THE NY Times once called him the "Poet" of his instrument. On the stage of Carnegie or Caramoor, you couldn't takes your eyes off him. Off stage he was a horror. He only lost his membership in his late-40's (on a vote of his peers)when his dissolute lifestyle caught up with him...And he just couldn't play anymore. Yes, until then we enabled him.

You asked me whether whether I had been in a situation where " a very talented and productive employee simply did not work well with a particular boss." And the answer is in the Arts and probably in BB is absolutely, yes and it's the job of management to sort things and make them work.

As Deems Taylor wrote in his essay "The Monster" 70 or 80 years ago...Wagner was a cheater, an anti-semite, a wife stealer, an unreliable friend and collegaue and it doesn't matter one whit.

Perhaps, my experiences color my view of this situ.

Written as I enjoy a splendid glass of 2015 Colle Picchioni Perlaia, as good a 10 buck Italian red as you can get