Ramona Shelburne weighs into Parker-Auriemma

[Alydar]

It appears that "the poet" was a transcendent talent. But if you had 3 or 4 other equally transcendent talents who played the same instrument (with better attitudes) looking to join your orchestra would you have put up with him?

 

[Bayareahusky]

I'm still waiting to see which Duke players Coach K favored to get onto the Olympic teams.

trial duke PLEASE give me a break... i am not looking back at my post now... and I think my statement was broad..... i do not think i specified olympics tho i could be wrong.... i was going by memory which is why i made mistake not giving Jeff Turner credit for having an NBA resume....

i do not want to go back and analyze Coach K resume and parse all selections..... i just remember he and knight were good at picking their own players.....

Opinions are just that OPINIONS do not pretend to have a corner on fact..... i have been wrong plenty of times.....

 

[msf22b]

It appears that "the poet" was a transcendent talent. But if you had 3 or 4 other equally transcendent talents who played the same instrument (with better attitudes) looking to join your orchestra would you have put up with him?

Folks like him (and Parker) rarely show up when the next bus comes rolling in
Closer to once in a lifetime.

 

[MilfordHusky]

The claim about Geno snubbing Candace is factually incorrect. This is old news that was hashed out in great detail on the board a year ago. Part of the issue was the Candace was unable or unwilling to defend Cambage in the semi-final game in London in 2012. The goal in 2016, as always, was to pick the best team of 12 players, not the best 12 individual players. At the time of the team selection, Candace's WNBA team had never been to the finals. She played a position at which we were loaded and was likely the 13th player on a 12-player team. Based on playing time, Catch was likely the 12th player. How would the LV faithful have reacted if Catch had not made the team?

 

[Alydar]

Folks like him (and Parker) rarely show up when the next bus comes rolling in
Closer to once in a lifetime.

Parker is good, in fact transcendent, but hardly a once in a lifetime player.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

trial duke PLEASE give me a break... i am not looking back at my post now... and I think my statement was broad..... i do not think i specified olympics tho i could be wrong.... i was going by memory which is why i made mistake not giving Jeff Turner credit for having an NBA resume....

i do not want to go back and analyze Coach K resume and parse all selections..... i just remember he and knight were good at picking their own players.....

Opinions are just that OPINIONS do not pretend to have a corner on fact..... i have been wrong plenty of times.....

I think Triad's follow-up questions had to do with the fact that's your post, which you say I say an opinion, read as factual. Hence, she was asking for the support behind the statement.

 

[JordyG]

OK. Here is the real scoop, the skinny, the dirt, the inside info on why Ms. Parker wasn't invited to play in Rio -
www.nicekicks.com/Candace-Parker-left-off-Olympic-team-wears-addidas/

This point was brought up and debated on RebKell's and at the time I brought this question over to The Boneyard.

 

[JoePgh]

Joe

You may be close to the nub of the issue....
From 1974-95, I developed an orchestra in NY that became one of the greatest perhaps the greatest small orchestra in the world, St Luke's.

During that time talent and artistry was paramount; we started with a bunch of druggie's/ hippies and as our engagements became more prominent and middle-class, a few dropped out...weren't pushed. The rest grew up...I remember one wonderful artist telling me Luke's is doomed to success as he slammed the door.

As I said, artistry and talent were paramount, we would do everything and anything to retain the extraordinary ability of our great artists. And don't lecture me about teamwork. teamwork in an orchestra is every bit as subtle as in Geno's most intricate system.

One example in particular comes to mind an individual who was retained despite the most outrageous behind the scenes and off the job behavior. Somehow we helped this artist to survive...THE NY Times once called him the "Poet" of his instrument. On the stage of Carnegie or Caramoor, you couldn't takes your eyes off him. Off stage he was a horror. He only lost his membership in his late-40's (on a vote of his peers)when his dissolute lifestyle caught up with him...And he just couldn't play anymore. Yes, until then we enabled him.

You asked me whether whether I had been in a situation where " a very talented and productive employee simply did not work well with a particular boss." And the answer is in the Arts and probably in BB is absolutely, yes and it's the job of management to sort things and make them work.

As Deems Taylor wrote in his essay "The Monster" 70 or 80 years ago...Wagner was a cheater, an anti-semite, a wife stealer, an unreliable friend and collegaue and it doesn't matter one whit.

Perhaps, my experiences color my view of this situ.

Written as I enjoy a splendid glass of 2015 Colle Picchioni Perlaia, as good a 10 buck Italian red as you can get

I have numerous reactions to this viewpoint, but I certainly appreciate your spelling it out in such detail.

First of all, I agree with the later poster that Candace's basketball skill is not clearly so far above the level of other contenders for the Olympic slot that it is sensible to accommodate her for the sake of making use of her talent. It sounds as if your Poet was way above his peers in musical talent, which perhaps is a different situation.

Second, it isn't necessary to believe that Candace is a bad or "dissolute" person to reach the conclusion that Geno and/or the Selection Committee made the right decision. I don't think that the decision had anything to do with Candace's off-court behavior, which to my knowledge and observation is perfectly satisfactory. I think the decision was based on her on-court behavior, as demonstrated primarily in London.

Third, you say that there is as much teamwork required in an orchestra as on Geno's basketball teams. I have no basis for disagreeing with you about that. But what if your Poet (or anyone else, including those with perhaps an exemplary personal life away from the job) refused to play as a team member or to take direction from the conductor? Would you still have retained him in that case?

Finally, you say that it is the job of management to sort things out and make them work, implying that the manager has to be the one to "bend", or even that a sufficiently talented employee should be permitted to do things his or her way without regard to the team. I don't think any team enterprise can work that way, as Holly Warlick is demonstrating at Tennessee in the way that she tried to manage Diamond Deshields. The results of that effort do not commend themselves as a recipe for success.

 

[01Neaggrad02]

So much talk about Candace "Candy" Parker. She has talent and no one can take that away from her.. but I am so glad she did not play for UCONN. Her attitude sucks. She cries to the refs, she "never" fouls... she is "always" fouled. Prima Donna... And lets be honest.. she was not on the team because she is not a team player....

 

[Bayareahusky]

I think Triad's follow-up questions had to do with the fact that's your post, which you say I say an opinion, read as factual. Hence, she was asking for the support behind the statement.

Understand..... It is good... I withdraw my statement if it was interpreted as fact

 

[DaddyChoc]

Ms Shelbourne's jab will certainly appear gratuitous to fervent UCONN fans,
but this is no "petty grievance."

Her incendiary remarks may be off-base or flat untrue about coach, but some combination of so-called "experts" made one of the dumbest, irrational and mean-spirited calls of the century by leaving Candace off the team...period.

And she's been taking it to us (and them) and especially Minny ever since.

And to hear talk of "attitude to be a good team player, chemistry with teammates and coaches" and the like (as I predicted on a different thread)
just compounds the irrationality of the call.

UConn fans appear petty and small-minded to the rest of the country in trying to defend the indefensible.

Leave it be, don't rise to the bait...and not for the usually stated reason.

I really admire the inner fortitude of this woman for not letting it destroy her.

well said... totally agree, Parker should have been on that team. comparing her to what happened on the mens side is no comparison

 

[DaddyChoc]

So much talk about Candace "Candy" Parker. She has talent and no one can take that away from her.. but I am so glad she did not play for UCONN. Her attitude sucks. She cries to the refs, she "never" fouls... she is "always" fouled. Prima Donna... And lets be honest.. she was not on the team because she is not a team player....

thought you were talking about Taurasi for a minute

 

[iri10]

I doubt we'll ever know for sure why she wasn't on that team, so everyone is free to speculate the scenario that most fits their personal view of the players and coaches and USA basketball.

But with imagination, it's not hard to envision multiple scenarios. For example, I can imagine multiple scenarios in which Geno was a major reason why Candace wasn't on the team. Some of those scenarios involve really bad reasons for leaving her off...some of them involve really good reasons for leaving her off.

No point in laying them out here, because there's no evidence for any of them. The only thing I feel confident in saying is this: I don't know if leaving Candace off was really some great travesty or miscarriage of fair play...and most likely you don't either.

 

[JS]

The only thing I feel confident in saying is this: I don't know if leaving Candace off was really some great travesty or miscarriage of fair play...and most likely you don't either.

Nor does Ms. Shelburne. She may know Parker's own preferred interpretation, after rejecting the reasons given her.

thought you were talking about Taurasi for a minute

So did I, on the part about working the refs. But no one ever credibly accused DT of not being a team player. Ever.

 

[meyers7]

They've just pulled me out of retirement to conduct two programs, so it ain't going down anytime soon.

I notice a lack of specificity in your concerns...Would you like to quantify them?

Her incendiary remarks may be off-base or flat untrue about coach,

but some combination of so-called "experts" made one of the dumbest, irrational and mean-spirited calls of the century by leaving Candace off the team...period.

And to hear talk of "attitude to be a good team player, chemistry with teammates and coaches" and the like (as I predicted on a different thread)
just compounds the irrationality of the call.

UConn fans appear petty and small-minded to the rest of the country in trying to defend the indefensible.

and not for the usually stated reason.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

I said at the time and since Candace should have been on the team, period. No one on this board will ever know the real reasons or full story behind why she wasn't. This is a UConn board so I understand why there would be dislike for some UT players and a fan base that had some very vocal members screaming her absence was a Geno action simply due to her college choice. Those decisions are usually much more complex. Maybe there is a good reason, but based on talent alone she should have been there. Catch was in fact in the twilight of her career and didn't contribute much, but she was making the team due to her commitment to USA basketball over many cycles.

 

[Bestiarius]

So much talk about Candace "Candy" Parker. She has talent and no one can take that away from her.. but I am so glad she did not play for UCONN. Her attitude sucks. She cries to the refs, she "never" fouls... she is "always" fouled. Prima Donna... And lets be honest.. she was not on the team because she is not a team player....

Candy is dandy, but Diana is finer.

 

[mbr33ct]

I said at the time and since Candace should have been on the team, period. No one on this board will ever know the real reasons or full story behind why she wasn't. This is a UConn board so I understand why there would be dislike for some UT players and a fan base that had some very vocal members screaming her absence was a Geno action simply due to her college choice. Those decisions are usually much more complex. Maybe there is a good reason, but based on talent alone she should have been there. Catch was in fact in the twilight of her career and didn't contribute much, but she was making the team due to her commitment to USA basketball over many cycles.

I'll pull a Muffet McGraw here (say it and disclose nothing), maybe you hit the nail on the head with that statement. Did Candace commit herself to USA basketball?

 

[CocoHusky]

Nor does Ms. Shelburne. She may know Parker's own preferred interpretation, after rejecting the reasons given her.
So did I, on the part about working the refs. But no one ever credibly accused DT of not being a team player. Ever.

Has anyone ever "credibly" accused Candace of not being a team player?

"It was really difficult," Parker said. "The one thing that allowed me to grow mentally was believing in myself. If it didn't happen, it wasn't going to be due to lack of effort."
"That attitude came in handy for Parker when Auriemma decided after the Games began to replace her in the starting lineup with Maya Moore. Moore is one of six of players on Team USA who played for Auriemma in college. He could not have had more of a Connecticut influence on the roster without adding an insurance agent to the staff.
If the decision frustrated Parker, she took it out on her opponents.
"I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to start," said Parker, who averaged 10.5 points over eight Olympic games. "It's definitely a different mindset. But I just tried to provide as much energy as possible when I came in."
Parker's response typified the maturity she and her teammates showed throughout an Olympics in which Team USA often was taken for granted."

Candace Parker overcomes, including getting past her coach

 

[Trappa]

Part of the issue was the Candace was unable or unwilling to defend Cambage in the semi-final game in London in 2012.

I'm no Parker fan, but I can't see this being true at all. Why would Parker be tasked with guarding Cambage in the first place? There were other, bulkier posts on the team who are actual centers. If they got in foul trouble and it came down to Parker, that's not her fault; it's not like Stewie is going to ever be able to stop Cambage either. If it was a coaching decision to place Parker on Cambage, that's an issue with a coaching decision.

 

[CocoHusky]

I'm no Parker fan, but I can't see this being true at all. Why would Parker be tasked with guarding Cambage in the first place? There were other, bulkier posts on the team who are actual centers. If they got in foul trouble and it came down to Parker, that's not her fault; it's not like Stewie is going to ever be able to stop Cambage either. If it was a coaching decision to place Parker on Cambage, that's an issue with a coaching decision.

Candace was not assigned to guard Cambage during that game, except on the occasional switches and rotations. The task of guarding Cambage fell to Tina Charles and Sylvia Fowles.

 

[Bayareahusky]

It still amazes me that the outcry is still out there.... that Parker got shafted and a tremendous injustice was done..... I understand the national consensus that she is one of the top players in the country. I wonder, trying to reason somewhat rhetorically what made Candace's Olympic omission so egregious and wrong? Was it her stats and game figures? Past performance in international competitions? What was it that made the coaching committee such a bunch of blithering idiots and analytical ingrates for not choosing a person who by most accounts DESERVED to be named to the team?

People are still up in arms more than a year later.... Even Candace will not let it go..... she says she has but she brings it up still.....

When choosing players for a basketball team, at the playground level or at the Olympic level.... the process is not like "we all know that is on the list to be named to the team" That is why they call it "choosing" the team members.... If Bird or Augustus wasn't chosen there would be surprise, perhaps even shock, but bottom line would be they were not chosen. It should be the same thing here with Candace.

But instead, the fix was in. The committee, or someone influencing the committee, played their chip to deny Candace of what was her destined spot on the team..... her rightful spot..... someone, some group of people, or the American populous had predetermined that whoever was named to the team, it went without saying that whoever was named to the team was going to be playing with Candace. After all, she was an automatic.

When the final puzzle of Wheel of Fortune comes, the puzzle reveals (what is it) the SAME GIVEN 4 consonants and a vowel....... before the contestant makes his/her supplemental choices...., Candace ... for whatever reason.... was widely seen as a GIVEN in the makeup of this team. She was a GIVEN by Jane Q. Public. And she did not make the cut. And the committee is not to blame, the ones charged with choosing the team, the blame lies with the coach of the team.

When it comes to personal choices and personnel decisions, these decisions are made by people. Not everybody will agree. Mitch Trubisky should start for the Bears this Sunday. Anyone who doesn't think that obviously has a screw loose. Verlander should be Houston Game 1 starter. Yankees should only use Chapman in relief in the last inning and for no more than 1 inning. Some of these things are debated furiously ... some are not.

Remember the NFL draft a few years ago.... when Ricky Williams of U Texas was by far the predominant running back in the draft, and the Colts came to declare their draft pick.... they needed a running back badly. and the commissioner came to the podium and announced the Colts pick. It was Edgerrin James of the U of Miami. How could this be?!!! An incredible shocker if you remember.... and it cost Williams a bunch of money - perhaps millions - not being the first running back taken in the draft....

Such is the nature when you have people making decisions, and not a groundswell of perceived consensus.

This whole Candace issue has for me been nothing more than a lot of noise..... and I have stayed out of the fray and out of the discussion for well over a year now..... but I sincerely find it FASCINATING that people are still harping on this subject so long after the fact.

As soon as I say it will go away in time, I remind myself that for many .... the Civil War is still being uncivilly fought .......only 150 years after history has told us that it ended.

 

[JS]

Has anyone ever "credibly" accused Candace of not being a team player?

Hard to say unless other players or coaches are willing to be quoted and their number and identity are such as to make their comments credible.

Which is not the case. But then, players almost never allow themselves to be quoted publicly, in a negative vein and by name, about other players.

It is the case that the "selfish" accusations, as supposedly made by other players, have been swirling around Ms. Parker for a long time. Here's a randomly selected example.

Caveat: No idea as to credibility. But it has persistently been out there in email Scoop Groups and social media.

I heard it specifically in the former context (sources with pretty good track record) at the time of the selection.

My point is not truth or falsehood. Maybe spreading this stuff is the work of Russian trolls. Maybe, on the other hand, where there's smoke . . .

My point was to answer DC's (typically tweaking of UConn fans) comparison of CP's on-court demeanor with that of DT.

Works the refs a lot, perhaps excessively, yes. Selfish, no.

I used the word "credibly," upon which you focus, Coco, just because I can't swear that no one's ever called DT selfish on the court.

But again, there's just no such narrative about her, and rightly so.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I'm no Parker fan, but I can't see this being true at all. Why would Parker be tasked with guarding Cambage in the first place? There were other, bulkier posts on the team who are actual centers. If they got in foul trouble and it came down to Parker, that's not her fault; it's not like Stewie is going to ever be able to stop Cambage either. If it was a coaching decision to place Parker on Cambage, that's an issue with a coaching decision.

Griner wasn’t on the team, and Sylvia wasn’t 100% healthy. Other than Fowles, Candace was the tallest player on the team. Tina, at 6’3”, and Asjha, at 6’2”, also guarded Cambage, who is 6’8”. Candace is a superlative player, but she’s a finesse player. Against the bulky Aussies (not just Cambage), more strength and willingness to bang are required.

 

[UConnCat]

Candace was not assigned to guard Cambage during that game, except on the occasional switches and rotations. The task of guarding Cambage fell to Tina Charles and Sylvia Fowles.

Parker showed zero grit or drive or determination in that game and it didn't matter whom she was supposed to guard. Geno pulled her after a particular possession in the 3rd quarter where it was clear she wanted no part of the aggressive and physical and determined Opals. That was that. She played great in the Gold Medal game against the finesse French team but everyone knew the real Gold Medal game was against the Opals. That said, that's not why she wasn't in Rio although I suspect USA BB remembered her poor effort in the face of adversity and knew they could win against Australia without her.

Parker likely would have been in Rio had she chosen to play in the 2014 World Championships in Istanbul but she chose to miss her second consecutive World Championship. She did this knowing that USA Basketball does not look favorably upon players bypassing the World Championships for the more glamorous Olympics. Everyone wants to be an Olympian, right? There's no gold medal quite like an Olympic gold medal. There are several core players who have never missed a World Championship tournament for USA Basketball or have done so only when a serious injury prevents them from playing. USA Basketball notices and cares a lot about that.

Back to Parker. She missed the 2010 World Championships in the Czech Republic because of shoulder surgery. She had chronic shoulder issues dating back to college and after re-injuring during the WNBA season she opted to shut down the season and have surgery. There was a story that summer that she had planned to have the shoulder surgery right after the WNBA season (and maybe still miss the world championships?) but she had the surgery mid-summer and that was that. She made the London Olympic team.

The next international tournament was the 2014 World Championships in Istanbul. After playing the entire WNBA season and the playoffs without evidence of injury, Parker announced that she would not be able to play for USA Basketball in Istanbul because of some minor, undisclosed knee surgery. She wished her teammates well on twitter, though. USA Basketball was not pleased nor were some of her teammates, the ones who show up and play in the world championships even though they'd probably like to take time off to have some minor surgeries or rest before overseas commitments begin. Whatever the surgery, Parker was ready to go when her overseas schedule began early November, 2014. There was to be no interfering with her Euroleague schedule.

Then comes Rio and USA BB was faced with having to look certain veteran players in the eyes and tell them it's okay to pass on the world championships and then waltz on in and make the Olympic team. USA BB chose instead to say that's not okay. Message sent. No preferential treatment, no player is more special than another.

I don't doubt for a minute that Geno didn't want her on the team in Rio. I don't think he enjoyed coaching her in London, particularly after she was removed from the starting lineup. It didn't matter as she did not have the support of the majority of the committee and that was largely because she backed out of the 2014 world championships and the complaints about that from some of the veteran players.

It's 2017 and USA BB extends an invitation to Parker to participate in camp leading up to the 2018 World Championship team. She was given the opportunity to show that playing for USA BB is an earned privilege and not an entitlement given to a WNBA MVP or All-Star. She declined.

I can not believe there are reporters still writing about Parker not making her third Olympic team. I also can not believe we're still seeing words like "tragic" or "injustice" ascribed to this situation. Sorry, tragic is how you describe what just happened in Vegas or Puerto Rico or other such places or events. A millionaire being denied her 3rd gold medal is not an injustice. There are more important things going on in the world than #ParkersLifeMatters.