OT: Player who didn’t make the baseball Hall of Fame that you think should?

[whaler11]

Here's another one for ya.

ERA+ which is park and league adjusted. 100 is baseline, you want higher than 100 for better than average.

Schilling - 127
Mussina - 123
Pettitte - 117

Mussina and Schilling have the exact same essentials. Mussina got in first because he retired first and isn’t making a complete fool of himself on a weekly basis.

Schilling will get in within the next two years.

Pettitte will never threaten to get in.

 

[AdamaNation]

I am not a Yankee fan but I admire Andy Pettite and his numbers don’t lie in regular season or the post. Only guy i believed was genuine in the whol steroid era.

Didn’t he get pinched with rocket in Houston, and get a hand slap for flipping on him?

 

[whaler11]

Didn’t he get pinched with rocket in Houston, and get a hand slap for flipping on him?

Andy Pettitte got caught and then admitted to using HGH ‘once’.

He also had to go to Houston because his wife forced him to leave his NY mistress.

 

[jayteeman]

Oh captain my captain. Thurman Munson should be there - he was the epitome of a man's baseball player. Would have, could have, should have.

 

[boog204]

Yankee fan... Pettitte is not a hall of famer. He was a very good pitcher but never was a dominant force. I think Mussina was at times and I can deal with his induction. Bonds and Clemens should be in. They were no-doubters before going PED and I truly think if they weren't such colossal d-bags they would already be in. I also think Larry Walker is incredibly underrated and the Coors factor is weighted too much against him. In his best year, 1997, Walker hit 346 with more home runs on the road (29-20) and in other years his .OPS is virtually the same home/away. While there were certainly some years where his home stats are better, this is obviously in-line with virtually any player.

Pete Rose is a hall-of-famer, obviously. But as someone who only saw him at the very end as a slow, singles hitter, I have always wondered if he wasn't very overrated. I.e., isn't he the epitome of the compiler? Obviously his prime years are very good. But he finished his career with six incredibly mediocre years to get the hit record and his career WAR is just about the same as Lou Whitaker.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

My issue with Rose is that top players in other sports openly gambled without consequences. Jordan, obviously. Bobby Riggs bragged about betting on tennis matches, and everyone loved him and he is in the tennis Hall of Fame.

 

[mauconnfan]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

Mussina and Schilling are equal basically, mirror career images. Mussina facing the Designated Hitter (had to spell it out it was changing to Dan Hurley otherwise LOL) his whole career easily makes up the ERA difference between him and Schilling. But Schilling great in the postseason he will get in. As someone stated think Mussina got there because he's a better guy, that's a no brainer. Guys a but his career is HOF worthy, especially if Don Sutton is in.

Andy? Had some real special wins in the playoffs and WS also but just seems to fall a bit short. Could pop it late but doubt it.

 

[mauconnfan]

Missed your reply, you hit the main points well.

In fact, that’s so true in my case. I moved to OF when I never played there consistently before, and I immediately emulated him (for better or worse).

He was so smooth in the field. He just never was a consistent enough hitter, especially for average.

I guess I should add my vote in the topic at hand: I voted Visquel and Bonds. I’m not overly thrilled though. It’s a tough question.

Great fielder, right there almost with Ken G Jr but not offensively good enough consistently. I mean if he ever got in ahead of Don Mattingly I would puke.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'd vote in Bonds and Clemens because they were HOFers before they started cheating. Pettite wasn't.

I'm biased, but if Mussina belongs in the HOF, then Schilling definitely does too. (Although I can't say I'd want to listen to his speech.) Both much better then Pettite, who was very good and a seemingly good dude.

Agreed. I think Mussina was an iffy choice really. Not because he was a Yankee, I thought Rivera was a deserving unanimous choice. Mussina was good. Schilling was better. Schilling, Mussina better than Smoltz

 

[Excalibur]

Mussina gets in over Schilling for two reasons:

Curt was and is a [fill in expletive]

Baseball writers are old and dumb enough to think that wins are a useful stat for evaluating starting pitchers.

 

[nomar]

My issue with Rose is that top players in other sports openly gambled without consequences. Jordan, obviously. Bobby Riggs bragged about betting on tennis matches, and everyone loved him and he is in the tennis Hall of Fame.

The problem is, of course, that Rose was betting on his own team, and not every game. Meaning that certain games would be more important to him, and could result in him using pitchers and players in a certain way to the detriment of the team's performance in the following game. Even if that didn't actually result in the Reds losing games, it's far beyond what other athletes have done as far as gambling goes. (Obviously it's nowhere near point shaving, as long as Rose is telling the truth when he says he always bet on the Reds.)

 

[FartMan69]

The baseball establishment forced the players hands when it came to taking PED's. It wasn't only well known drug use was rampent and the league needed those HR totals to recover from the strike. To try and place a cheater label on certain players because they did what they had to do to stay competitive in a league where EVERYONE was juicing is naive and quite frankly only olds seem to be bothered by it. The HOF is a baseball museum in Central NY and documents all of baseball history and like it or not you old fogies but the steroid era happened and is in fact still happening.

 

[Caronimo]

I wouldn't have an issue with all 6 of those guys getting in. I am not sure if I would vote on a known roid user, but have no issue with Clemens and Bonds getting in. Again, not sure if I would vote on them or not... they should be recognized somehow by the HOF. Larry Walker is borderline to me. Schilling and Visquel should be in. I don't think Schilling has been voted in simply because of his right wing political openness and other off the field stuff.

 

[ZenConn]

Bonds and Clemens should be in. PED's isn't only limited to the the 90's and up and has been in baseball from the start - from creatine to HGH to amphetamines and everything in between.

Hell, I once read that Babe Ruth once tried to inject himself with some sort of steroid or testosterone from a sheep or something and got himself sick.

 

[crewbear742]

[Bonds] dominated those 13 years and was already a no-doubt HoFer.

It's precisely because he deserves to get in the HOF that it should be denied him. He should not receive that validation of his career. No honor. No plaque. No speech. No moment in the sun. Nothing.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I think the easiest question to at least make sure the obvious names make it in is:

Can we tell the story of [given sport] without mentioning [player]? If not, you get them in.

 

[nomar]

I think the easiest question to at least make sure the obvious names make it in is:

Can we tell the story of [given sport] without mentioning [player]? If not, you get them in.

Well, I voted for Clemens, Bonds and Schilling -- which I think is consistent with your framed question.

 

[Slasher]

I still can't decide on Bonds/Clemens. But of the current group that didn't get elected and are most deserving my list is Walker / Rolen / Schilling.

Walker generated >70 WAR, had a career OPS .965 (141 OPS+), was a well-regarded defender, won an MVP and has enough counting stats.

Rolen generated > 70 WAR, was perhaps one of the two or three best defenders ever at 3rd, and is a top 10 3rd basemen of all-time. His vote totals are shockingly low (though I do think he'll get in)

Schilling is pretty easy too. There's like 30 SP in the HOF that are worse than he was. He lost a bunch of votes over politics after he was retired which is really stupid. > 80 WAR, 127 ERA+ 4 top 5 CY Young finishes.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Rivera is a definite 1st ballot enshrinement BUT being the only unaminous in his 1st year is a total joke
Mays, Aaron, Banks, Clemente, Gwynn, Williams - even Ruth and Johnson - guys who busted butt all game or threw multiple innings a few times a week
I don't care if it's a "specialty" but not on the same level
Anyways, congrats to those elected

It all depends on who else is on the ballot. Some times there are too many great candidates.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Fred McGriff.

 

[Dove]

Fred McGriff, Joey Belle and Andruw Jones belong.

From the list:

Bonds, Clemens and Walker.

 

[Mano]

I think the easiest question to at least make sure the obvious names make it in is:

Can we tell the story of [given sport] without mentioning [player]? If not, you get them in.

That's my opinion. For a while, out of spite, I didn't like the idea of their inclusion. But now it's clear they were all pretty much doing it. Unless you're willing to ignore a whole 30 year stretch of baseball, they deserve to be in whether they admitted it or not. Teams shouldn't be afraid to hire them too.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

At least we will never have to hear the “baseball writers have never unanimously voted” story ever again.

I think the steroid era has as much to do with the unanimous voting as his greatness
I think the field is shrunk considerably when certain guys are excluded .

 

[whaler11]

I still can't decide on Bonds/Clemens. But of the current group that didn't get elected and are most deserving my list is Walker / Rolen / Schilling.

Walker generated >70 WAR, had a career OPS .965 (141 OPS+), was a well-regarded defender, won an MVP and has enough counting stats.

Rolen generated > 70 WAR, was perhaps one of the two or three best defenders ever at 3rd, and is a top 10 3rd basemen of all-time. His vote totals are shockingly low (though I do think he'll get in)

Schilling is pretty easy too. There's like 30 SP in the HOF that are worse than he was. He lost a bunch of votes over politics after he was retired which is really stupid. > 80 WAR, 127 ERA+ 4 top 5 CY Young finishes.

Rolen played defense like a shortstop and hit like a corner outfielder for 15 years.

He’s better than half of the inductees the last decade but the HOF has a complete blindspot on third basemen.

 

[Psolo12]

Andy Pettite isn’t a hall of famer. It’s not the Hall of good it’s the hall of fame.

 

[superjohn]

The baseball establishment forced the players hands when it came to taking PED's. It wasn't only well known drug use was rampent and the league needed those HR totals to recover from the strike. To try and place a cheater label on certain players because they did what they had to do to stay competitive in a league where EVERYONE was juicing is naive and quite frankly only olds seem to be bothered by it. The HOF is a baseball museum in Central NY and documents all of baseball history and like it or not you old fogies but the steroid era happened and is in fact still happening.

Exactly, it's hard to believe people are this naive. Everyone was taking them then because the league wanted everyone taking them then.

Steroids and HGH are still rampant in every sport. For some reason nobody has ever cared that all our football players are on it. People care about players going brain dead but they don't care about the roids they are all taking. A big part of the reason they are going brain dead is because of the roids.

 

[superjohn]

Nobody has answered the question. How on earth is Harold Baines HOF worthy?

 

[Husky25]

Nobody has answered the question. How on earth is Harold Baines HOF worthy?

He's not. He's friends with some voters on the Veterans Committee. He was sacked from the BBWAA ballot after his 6th year of eligibility.

Not that he deserves a plaque in The Hall, necessarily, but the BBWAA did Dwight Evans a great disservice when he fell off the ballot after his 3rd year of eligibility.

 

[intlzncster]

Yankee fan... Pettitte is not a hall of famer. He was a very good pitcher but never was a dominant force. I think Mussina was at times and I can deal with his induction. Bonds and Clemens should be in. They were no-doubters before going PED and I truly think if they weren't such colossal d-bags they would already be in. I also think

If we're being absolutely real about it. Bonds should have been the first unanimous HoFer....before he started juicing. Followed by KGJr. But sportswriters gonna moralize.

 

[intlzncster]

Nobody has answered the question. How on earth is Harold Baines HOF worthy?

He was a very nice guy.