OT: Player who didn’t make the baseball Hall of Fame that you think should?

[intlzncster]

I am not a Yankee fan but I admire Andy Pettite and his numbers don’t lie in regular season or the post. Only guy i believed was genuine in the whol steroid era.

He got caught doing HGH tho...

 

[mauconnfan]

You're insanely naive. Over half of baseball was juicing. It's bad enough they keep the best players ever out for cheating, you want to keep people out with no evidence of cheating.

No I'm not I'm honest about the obvious sj. Bonds was twice if not even more the player Bagwell was before both figured cheating was the way. It's not close - Bonds already a .320/30/120 guy and a great OFer and speed while Bagwell was a decent player at best until he changes into the Hulk. Naive is what you are thinking I'm afraid. I know everyone was cheating but the Astro's were way out in front ask Caminitti who was great friends as well as his best buddy the 2nd baseman turned OFer/HOFer. They were all just good baseball players while Bonds prior to taking the crap was already great. Don't want to hear of "no evidence" watch the bodies change, it's simple. From a 6 3/4 hat to 8 1/4 doesn't hurt the obvious either.

 

[Psolo12]

My position on Clemens and Bonds as stated by someone who was just inducted into the Hall of Fame. RIP.

 

[mauconnfan]

Not Bonds. Never. He should be expunged from baseball. He destroyed the most important record in American sports. Every know 714. Everyone knows 755. Who cares what Bonds achieved? I can't even tell you the number. It's not important anymore.

Bonds is the poster boy for steroids and he can suffer for them all because his crime was the greatest. The only atonement he can make is to have his stats erased and the record reset to 755. Never forget. Never forgive. Never.

Sosa and McGuwire ruined that well before Bonds please. Sosa wasn't even a good baseball player until he cheated and McGwire wasn't Bonds or close. Barry did it because these 2 didn't deserve the limelight and everyone that played knew it. Shame on Barry for caving but shame on baseball for allowing such a fake HR derby.

 

[intlzncster]

Not Bonds. Never. He should be expunged from baseball. He destroyed the most important record in American sports. Every know 714. Everyone knows 755. Who cares what Bonds achieved? I can't even tell you the number. It's not important anymore.

Bonds is the poster boy for steroids and he can suffer for them all because his crime was the greatest. The only atonement he can make is to have his stats erased and the record reset to 755. Never forget. Never forgive. Never.

Sosa and McGuwire ruined that well before Bonds please. Sosa wasn't even a good baseball player until he cheated and McGwire wasn't Bonds or close. Barry did it because these 2 didn't deserve the limelight and everyone that played knew it. Shame on Barry for caving but shame on baseball for allowing such a fake HR derby.

idk 98 Home Run chase with Mcgwire and Sosa was the most fun regular season of baseball in my lifetime. And watching Bonds break that one was also enjoyable. Loved watching the pitchers sweat.

I don't see why records like that matter so much anyway. Guy like Ruth played when it was 6-packs and prostitutes during the 7th inning stretch. Guys threw like 60mph. Game got much, much, much harder. Difference between now and the 70s is light years. That's why the records haven't been broken.

Not remotely comparable to today.

 

[mauconnfan]

My position on Clemens and Bonds as stated by someone who was just inducted into the Hall of Fame. RIP.

And Arod, and Papi, and half of their teammates. It is what it is.

 

[Psolo12]

And Arod, and Papi, and half of their teammates. It is what it is.

I'm one of the guys that doesn't want to believe guys like Papi and Piazza did it simply because there was only low level suspicion. Maybe it's ignorance or wishful thinking, but nobody testified in Court that they did so I tend to side with them over Bonds and Clemens.

 

[superjohn]

No I'm not I'm honest about the obvious sj. Bonds was twice if not even more the player Bagwell was before both figured cheating was the way. It's not close - Bonds already a .320/30/120 guy and a great OFer and speed while Bagwell was a decent player at best until he changes into the Hulk. Naive is what you are thinking I'm afraid. I know everyone was cheating but the Astro's were way out in front ask Caminitti who was great friends as well as his best buddy the 2nd baseman turned OFer/HOFer. They were all just good baseball players while Bonds prior to taking the crap was already great. Don't want to hear of "no evidence" watch the bodies change, it's simple. From a 6 3/4 hat to 8 1/4 doesn't hurt the obvious either.

There is so much wrong with this post I'm not even going to bother picking it apart. I'll chalk it up to boozing.

 

[mauconnfan]

There is so much wrong with this post I'm not even going to bother picking it apart. I'll chalk it up to boozing.

Not boozing not sure what's wrong you're kidding right? Naive is you sj sorry, you honestly believe your CT guy wasn't a cheater LOL hilarious. He was never as good as Bonds never.

 

[intlzncster]

And Arod, and Papi, and half of their teammates. It is what it is.

Don't even know if Doc did them either. You really don't. All you can do is compare guys to their peers.

 

[Robertelamin]

Everyone will tell their grandchildren about the “greatness” of Mike Mussina.

 

[superjohn]

Not boozing not sure what's wrong you're kidding right? Naive is you sj sorry, you honestly believe your CT guy wasn't a cheater LOL hilarious. He was never as good as Bonds never.

I assumed you're drinking because you're saying crazy things I never said. This is two posts in a row where you're making up some crazy thing that "Bagwell was never as good as Bonds." No shart.

 

[intlzncster]

Dave Parker. Incredible talent that should outweigh the off field stuff

I HATE that there's an 'off the field' bias for sportswriters. It's the Baseball Hall of Fame. Not the Life Hall of Fame.

 

[Psolo12]

I HATE that there's an 'off the field' bias for sportswriters. It's the Baseball Hall of Fame. Not the Life Hall of Fame.

This is why I feel that Pete Rose should be in, but not Bonds and Clemens as their off the field activities directly correlated with their on the field results.

 

[storrsroars]

Lou Whitaker has a top 50 career WAR -- he's overlooked because he doesn't have otherworldly counting numbers. Better career WAR than Frankie Frisch and Reggie Jackson.

Lou was my "other" vote. You forgot to mention Whitaker also has a higher career bWAR than Jeter - in two fewer seasons. Jeter is assumed to be a 1st ballot entry. Whitaker also has a higher fWAR than Barry Larkin, Paul Molitor, Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, Robin Yount, Craig Biggio and a cast of dozens more already in the HoF.

 

[mauconnfan]

I assumed you're drinking because you're saying crazy things I never said. This is two posts in a row where you're making up some crazy thing that "Bagwell was never as good as Bonds." No shart.

Huh? Why should he be in and not Bonds then? I mean you said I'm leaving the "best players out with no evidence", hep me understand who you mean then? Best player was Bonds HPFer without cheating. Bagwell, nice player no sniff of the HOF without cheating..help me understand what you're missing sj?

Is it Jack Daniels?

 

[superjohn]

I HATE that there's an 'off the field' bias for sportswriters. It's the Baseball Hall of Fame. Not the Life Hall of Fame.

It's the worst, I can't stand Schilling ss a human being but it has nothing to do with how good he was. I also love a bunch of people who know nothing about PED's and lifting weights making judgements on who they "think" or "know" used gear. These morons still pretend it was just a couple handfuls of guys or a couple dozen.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Growing up in the 90s-00s Andruw Jones made it cool to play outfield when most kids wanted to be Nomar or Jeter. Remarkable defender with his signature shallow alignment. Hit over 400 dingers but he took a million seasons to do so. Also, there aren’t many .250 career hitters in the HOF.

Unfortunately that last statement is right. While moving in the right direction, there are still far too many antiquated views on things like batting average amongst baseball writers.

 

[superjohn]

Huh? Why should he be in and not Bonds then? I mean you said I'm leaving the "best players out with no evidence", hep me understand who you mean then? Best player was Bonds HPFer without cheating. Bagwell, nice player no sniff of the HOF without cheating..help me understand what you're missing sj?

Is it Jack Daniels?

Not trying to be a jerk but you really need help with your reading comprehension...

Baseball Hall of Fame is now the Baseball Hall of Very Good. The whole thing has become a bit of a joke.

They keep out the best players of all-time (Bonds, Clemens, and Rose) and put in Harold friggin' Baines. I like Baines but making him a Hall of Famer is crazy town. Since Baines just made it now they have to put in Edgar but how does one justify Edgar getting in over Larry Walker? I also really like Mussina but do people actually think he was better than Schilling.

Bagwell and Piazza had to wait forever and then a guy like Harold Baines gets let in. It's all sort of ridiculous.

 

[mauconnfan]

Not trying to be a jerk but you really need help with your reading comprehension...

don't think so. Maybe you need to explain better. Bagwell waited too long? I hear ya on Baines but Bagwell shouldn't be there either, what am I missing? LOL

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

Thinking back on the early 2000s, everyone was jacked out of their minds. Its cheating, but when so many players are doing steroids, players have to keep up with their competition somehow, especially when there are millions of dollars on the line and a very limited duration to make it.

That’s why I’d be voting for all these steroid users. That, and it’s also bogging down the HOF ballot hard, taking away from guys who didn’t use steroids. Maybe some of the borderline steroid users shouldn’t get in, but guys like bonds and Clemens?

 

[superjohn]

don't think so. Maybe you need to explain better. Bagwell waited too long? I hear ya on Baines but Bagwell shouldn't be there either, what am I missing? LOL

Bonds and Clemens were caught cheating, I think it's a joke they aren't Hall of Famers because they are two of the best players to ever play and they cheated in a time when so many of their peers were cheating....it's bad enough they are being kept out but keeping out players you think may have cheated even though you don't have proof is really wrong. Bagwell was kept out for a long time because some idiot sportswriters "know" he was doing steroids because his arms got bigger. If suspicions are grounds for keeping people out then there shouldn't be any players let in from the entire era. It was all suspect, there is a reason it's called the steroid era.

 

[storrsroars]

Huh? Why should he be in and not Bonds then? I mean you said I'm leaving the "best players out with no evidence", hep me understand who you mean then? Best player was Bonds HPFer without cheating. Bagwell, nice player no sniff of the HOF without cheating..help me understand what you're missing sj?

It's widely assumed Bonds didn't start PEDs until after the 1998 season in response to Sosa/McGwire. In the 13 seasons from 1986-98, Bonds had already compiled 411 HRs, a career OPS of .966 and bWAR of 99.9 with 3 MVP awards. He dominated those 13 years and was already a no-doubt HoFer.

 

[superjohn]

Thinking back on the early 2000s, everyone was jacked out of their minds. Its cheating, but when so many players are doing steroids, players have to keep up with their competition somehow, especially when there are millions of dollars on the line and a very limited duration to make it.

That’s why I’d be voting for all these steroid users. That, and it’s also bogging down the HOF ballot hard, taking away from guys who didn’t use steroids. Maybe some of the borderline steroid users shouldn’t get in, but guys like bonds and Clemens?

Bingo, well said. All the people in charge knew they were on gear and they all promoted it because it was all making them money. For them to turn around and pretend they weren't complicit and to pick and choose who the villains are is ridiculous.

 

[The Viking]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

 

[intlzncster]

Bingo, well said. All the people in charge knew they were on gear and they all promoted it because it was all making them money. For them to turn around and pretend they weren't complicit and to pick and choose who the villains are is ridiculous.

People don't like admitting this, but PEDs injected new life into baseball in the late 90s. pun intended.

 

[whaler11]

The baseball HOF is so broken the conversations are pointless but the fact that Vizquel gets more support than Scott Rolen should be evidence it should be shut down.

 

[whaler11]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

Yeah because raw ERA is a great measure when comparing NL and AL pitchers.

I wonder it there is a complication to that.

 

[Mr. French]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

I agree... I’m not sure any of them are, but if they are, Schilling is.

 

[The Viking]

Yeah because raw ERA is a great measure when comparing NL and AL pitchers.

I wonder it there is a complication to that.

Here are two more for ya.

ERA+ which is park and league adjusted. 100 is baseline, you want higher than 100 for better than average.

Schilling - 127
Mussina - 123
Pettitte - 117

xFIP- is also park and league adjusted - I could find it as a stat back to 2002, so these numbers are from 2002 on.. 100 is baseline, and the lower the number the better

Schilling 72
Pettitte 85
Mussina 87