OT: Player who didn’t make the baseball Hall of Fame that you think should?

[Rocktheworld]

I think the easiest question to at least make sure the obvious names make it in is:

Can we tell the story of [given sport] without mentioning [player]? If not, you get them in.

 

[nomar]

I think the easiest question to at least make sure the obvious names make it in is:

Can we tell the story of [given sport] without mentioning [player]? If not, you get them in.

Well, I voted for Clemens, Bonds and Schilling -- which I think is consistent with your framed question.

 

[Slasher]

I still can't decide on Bonds/Clemens. But of the current group that didn't get elected and are most deserving my list is Walker / Rolen / Schilling.

Walker generated >70 WAR, had a career OPS .965 (141 OPS+), was a well-regarded defender, won an MVP and has enough counting stats.

Rolen generated > 70 WAR, was perhaps one of the two or three best defenders ever at 3rd, and is a top 10 3rd basemen of all-time. His vote totals are shockingly low (though I do think he'll get in)

Schilling is pretty easy too. There's like 30 SP in the HOF that are worse than he was. He lost a bunch of votes over politics after he was retired which is really stupid. > 80 WAR, 127 ERA+ 4 top 5 CY Young finishes.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Rivera is a definite 1st ballot enshrinement BUT being the only unaminous in his 1st year is a total joke
Mays, Aaron, Banks, Clemente, Gwynn, Williams - even Ruth and Johnson - guys who busted butt all game or threw multiple innings a few times a week
I don't care if it's a "specialty" but not on the same level
Anyways, congrats to those elected

It all depends on who else is on the ballot. Some times there are too many great candidates.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Fred McGriff.

 

[Dove]

Fred McGriff, Joey Belle and Andruw Jones belong.

From the list:

Bonds, Clemens and Walker.

 

[Mano]

I think the easiest question to at least make sure the obvious names make it in is:

Can we tell the story of [given sport] without mentioning [player]? If not, you get them in.

That's my opinion. For a while, out of spite, I didn't like the idea of their inclusion. But now it's clear they were all pretty much doing it. Unless you're willing to ignore a whole 30 year stretch of baseball, they deserve to be in whether they admitted it or not. Teams shouldn't be afraid to hire them too.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

At least we will never have to hear the “baseball writers have never unanimously voted” story ever again.

I think the steroid era has as much to do with the unanimous voting as his greatness
I think the field is shrunk considerably when certain guys are excluded .

 

[whaler11]

I still can't decide on Bonds/Clemens. But of the current group that didn't get elected and are most deserving my list is Walker / Rolen / Schilling.

Walker generated >70 WAR, had a career OPS .965 (141 OPS+), was a well-regarded defender, won an MVP and has enough counting stats.

Rolen generated > 70 WAR, was perhaps one of the two or three best defenders ever at 3rd, and is a top 10 3rd basemen of all-time. His vote totals are shockingly low (though I do think he'll get in)

Schilling is pretty easy too. There's like 30 SP in the HOF that are worse than he was. He lost a bunch of votes over politics after he was retired which is really stupid. > 80 WAR, 127 ERA+ 4 top 5 CY Young finishes.

Rolen played defense like a shortstop and hit like a corner outfielder for 15 years.

He’s better than half of the inductees the last decade but the HOF has a complete blindspot on third basemen.

 

[Psolo12]

Andy Pettite isn’t a hall of famer. It’s not the Hall of good it’s the hall of fame.

 

[superjohn]

The baseball establishment forced the players hands when it came to taking PED's. It wasn't only well known drug use was rampent and the league needed those HR totals to recover from the strike. To try and place a cheater label on certain players because they did what they had to do to stay competitive in a league where EVERYONE was juicing is naive and quite frankly only olds seem to be bothered by it. The HOF is a baseball museum in Central NY and documents all of baseball history and like it or not you old fogies but the steroid era happened and is in fact still happening.

Exactly, it's hard to believe people are this naive. Everyone was taking them then because the league wanted everyone taking them then.

Steroids and HGH are still rampant in every sport. For some reason nobody has ever cared that all our football players are on it. People care about players going brain dead but they don't care about the roids they are all taking. A big part of the reason they are going brain dead is because of the roids.

 

[superjohn]

Nobody has answered the question. How on earth is Harold Baines HOF worthy?

 

[Husky25]

Nobody has answered the question. How on earth is Harold Baines HOF worthy?

He's not. He's friends with some voters on the Veterans Committee. He was sacked from the BBWAA ballot after his 6th year of eligibility.

Not that he deserves a plaque in The Hall, necessarily, but the BBWAA did Dwight Evans a great disservice when he fell off the ballot after his 3rd year of eligibility.

 

[intlzncster]

Yankee fan... Pettitte is not a hall of famer. He was a very good pitcher but never was a dominant force. I think Mussina was at times and I can deal with his induction. Bonds and Clemens should be in. They were no-doubters before going PED and I truly think if they weren't such colossal d-bags they would already be in. I also think

If we're being absolutely real about it. Bonds should have been the first unanimous HoFer....before he started juicing. Followed by KGJr. But sportswriters gonna moralize.

 

[intlzncster]

Nobody has answered the question. How on earth is Harold Baines HOF worthy?

He was a very nice guy.

 

[superjohn]

He was a very nice guy.

That seems to be the answer.

 

[Palatine]

Clemens was done when he left the Red Sox, then suddenly he was renewed beyond belief and got better and better the older he got. His entire post-Red Sox career was fueled by steroids.

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

Bonds and Clemens should be in. PED's isn't only limited to the the 90's and up and has been in baseball from the start - from creatine to HGH to amphetamines and everything in between.

Hell, I once read that Babe Ruth once tried to inject himself with some sort of steroid or testosterone from a sheep or something and got himself sick.

100% agreed, we have no clue who was using steroids before hand but the assumption should be that there were a good amount. Mlb used bonds, Clemens and others as scapegoats, but is it really fair to punish them because they were using steroids when baseball started placinh an emphasis on testing?

Think of guys like ken Griffey jr, who more or less came right before the era mlb started testing hard. Not saying he did steroids because there’s no proof, but he also played in a time when steroids were rampant, and showed a similar trajectory (both stats and physical build) to other known steroid users. But people consider him definition of a hall of famer (deservedly). Why no links to steroids? Because he wasn’t tested like bonds or Clemens and because people thought he had a perfect swing.

Really don’t think there’s a good solution to steroid users other than to put them in.

 

[Slasher]

100% agreed, we have no clue who was using steroids before hand but the assumption should be that there were a good amount. Mlb used bonds, Clemens and others as scapegoats, but is it really fair to punish them because they were using steroids when baseball started placinh an emphasis on testing?

Think of guys like ken Griffey jr, who more or less came right before the era mlb started testing hard. Not saying he did steroids because there’s no proof, but he also played in a time when steroids were rampant, and showed a similar trajectory (both stats and physical build) to other known steroid users. But people consider him definition of a hall of famer (deservedly). Why no links to steroids? Because he wasn’t tested like bonds or Clemens and because people thought he had a perfect swing.

Really don’t think there’s a good solution to steroid users other than to put them in.

Well Griffey also declined with age (as expected) unlike Bonds and Clemens.

 

[Excalibur]

Not that he deserves a plaque in The Hall, necessarily, but the BBWAA did Dwight Evans a great disservice when he fell off the ballot after his 3rd year of eligibility.

Noboby can explain how, if Baines is in, Evans is not. Evans' career OPS is 20 points higher, he has the same number of home runs, he finished in the top 5 in MVP voting twice vs. zero for Baines (and in the top ten 4 times vs. one for Baines), was one the best defensive outfielders of his era (8 gold gloves), hit 30+ homers 3 times vs. zero for Baines, and led the league in runs scored, home runs, OPS (twice) walks (3 times), total bases, and on base percentage at one point or another during his career. Baines led the league in an offensive category once -- slugging percentage in 1984.

 

[superjohn]

Clemens was done when he left the Red Sox, then suddenly he was renewed beyond belief and got better and better the older he got. His entire post-Red Sox career was fueled by steroids.

They were all on steroids.

Clemens was done when he left the Red Sox just like Verlander was done when he left the Tigers.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

I was lukewarm on Mussina, but after looking over his stats again, I don't think his inclusion is egregious.
270 wins, 2800 K's, 9 top-6 Cy Young finishes, 83 bWAR including 10 5-WAR seasons. The only knock on Mussina is that he never won a Cy Young or a World Series.

Pettitte is a no. His counting stats are close to Mussina, but only 5 top-6 Cy finishes, 61 bWAR, and only 3(!) seasons with >4 WAR. He was solid, but rarely outstanding. The biggest thing going for him is being the 5th or 6th best player on a team that won 5 World Series. That's not enough for me.

Schilling is tough, but I ultimately lean towards yes. Paltry win total (216), but he got 3K strikeouts. Only 4 top-4 Cy finishes, though tough luck in two of those years, 2001 and 2002, when he had over 17 bWAR total and probably would have won it if Randy Johnson was in the AL. 81 total bWAR and a clearly defined peak , unlike Pettitte, gives a HOF feel to his career. Add in that the postseason heroics and I think he belongs. He was one of the defining pitchers of his era.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Nobody has answered the question. How on earth is Harold Baines HOF worthy?

Was a very good hitter for a long time.

 

[intlzncster]

Bonds and Clemens should be in. PED's isn't only limited to the the 90's and up and has been in baseball from the start - from creatine to HGH to amphetamines and everything in between.

Hell, I once read that Babe Ruth once tried to inject himself with some sort of steroid or testosterone from a sheep or something and got himself sick.

Not to mention all the pitchers with their spitballs and Vagisil. Corked bats. etc.

 

[intlzncster]

I think the steroid era has as much to do with the unanimous voting as his greatness
I think the field is shrunk considerably when certain guys are excluded .

By that token Pedro should have been unanimous too. Outside of being the best pitcher I've personally seen in my lifetime, he flat out dominated 98-01 during the heart of the steroid era. Pedro starts were absolute must watch TV during that time, if you were a baseball fan in general.