OT: Player who didn’t make the baseball Hall of Fame that you think should?

[dennismenace]

My position on Clemens and Bonds as stated by someone who was just inducted into the Hall of Fame. RIP.

Kind of an eerie statement from someone whose life ended abruptly and tragically.

Experts: Roy Halladay likely impaired at time of fatal plane crash

 

[mauconnfan]

By that token Pedro should have been unanimous too. Outside of being the best pitcher I've personally seen in my lifetime, he flat out dominated 98-01 during the heart of the steroid era. Pedro starts were absolute must watch TV during that time, if you were a baseball fan in general.

Same with Mariano steroid era, heck still is, best closer, reliever ever and it's not close. I think Pedro was great, dominating but isn't the best pitcher ever although you can argue maybe . Hence the deserving 100%.

 

[jibsey]

The HOF discussions are fun but there are unseen levels in the Hall. Babe, Lou, Williams, Mays, Mantle, Pedro, Koufax plus many more sit on an elite shelf. Mariano is on that shelf too but the 3 other guys that got in this year are not of their level IMO. Making it in supposedly puts all players in the same elite club but even here all things are not equal. BTW, anyone who has not been to Cooperstown should think about going because it’s quite a special town and place.

 

[intlzncster]

The baseball establishment forced the players hands when it came to taking PED's. It wasn't only well known drug use was rampent and the league needed those HR totals to recover from the strike.

That's exactly what I was saying with this post. Breathed life into a sport that was treading water at best at the time.

OT: Player who didn’t make the baseball Hall of Fame that you think should?

I don't know why this is universally ignored.

 

[mauconnfan]

Noboby can explain how, if Baines is in, Evans is not. Evans' career OPS is 20 points higher, he has the same number of home runs, he finished in the top 5 in MVP voting twice vs. zero for Baines (and in the top ten 4 times vs. one for Baines), was one the best defensive outfielders of his era (8 gold gloves), hit 30+ homers 3 times vs. zero for Baines, and led the league in runs scored, home runs, OPS (twice) walks (3 times), total bases, and on base percentage at one point or another during his career. Baines led the league in an offensive category once -- slugging percentage in 1984.

Neither deserve to be in the HOF but Evans would have a better argument. He was a great OFer with one of the best arms ever in MLB but .272, 70 RBI a year isn't HOF numbers although there are worst in it. Baines a much better hitter in his prime but lasted only because he could hit, didn't play in the field all that much late and wasn't at all that good.

 

[intlzncster]

Same with Mariano steroid era, heck still is, best closer, reliever ever and it's not close. I think Pedro was great, dominating but isn't the best pitcher ever although you can argue maybe . Hence the deserving 100%.

I mean, you can make that delineation if you want (best ever at position), but all the other guys already in the Hall didn't get that same treatment. The Top 5 guys to ever play the game (at any position) aren't unanimous, so it's hard to now arbitrarily apply that same label. And I think we can agree that Mariano is not in the Top 5 (any position) to ever play the game.

I'm also not saying Pedro was the best ever. Just the best I've seen in my lifetime. I can't speak to the hundred odd years before me.

And I'm not at all saying that because I am a Sox fan. You can go back and watch him pitch, and even now, it's mind boggling stuff. I still don't know how he did what he did with a baseball.

I won't be surprised if Jeter gets in unanimously*, mainly, because sportswriters loved his button up straight-edged style. And he does not remotely deserve it under your criteria.

*although if there's a Marlins writer voting, there's a chance he takes out the current state of the club on Jeter's candidacy lol

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

I’m honestly surprised by Mussina. He was an above average pitcher but HOF? If he’s in will we see someone like Josh Beckett, Mark Burhle, Cliff Lee?

 

[intlzncster]

Neither deserve to be in the HOF but Evans would have a better argument. He was a great OFer with one of the best arms ever in MLB but .272, 70 RBI a year isn't HOF numbers although there are worst in it. Baines a much better hitter in his prime but lasted only because he could hit, didn't play in the field all that much late and wasn't at all that good.

I don't think Evans is a HOFer. But that's because I don't think Baines is either.

Voters criteria just seems to shift from year to year and it's annoying.

 

[bballgrda]

Hilarious that some posters are citing RBI

 

[Husky25]

I don't think Evans is a HOFer. But that's because I don't think Baines is either.

Voters criteria just seems to shift from year to year and it's annoying.

I'm not saying that Evans is a HoFer. I think he should have gotten more consideration.

BBWAA criteria is drastically different than the Veteran's Committee. I can understand if a player was close and exhausted his 15 year window. Baines fell off the ballot in year 6. Evan's had a better career and was done after 3.

 

[intlzncster]

Well Griffey also declined with age (as expected) unlike Bonds and Clemens.

You can't make that distinction. Some guys break down early because all that muscle and power puts strain on their tendons/joints (which aren't bolstered in the same way by steroids). Without real medical analysis, you can't tell.

In fact, I've heard people claim that Pedro must have been using because he broke down when he was in his early to mid 30s. It's laughable logic.

• He was built like a wet noodle, so clearly it wasn't muscle enhancing steroids.
• What about Lance Armstrong style blood doping PEDs for recovery/longevity purposes? Well, he must have stopped using when he was like 30 yrs old, because he broke down quick.
• Most likely scenario (occams razor): guys built as small/slight as him, who throw as hard as he did, with severe whipping motion, break down early because their slight frames can't handle that kind of torque. eg. Tim Linecum
• Whereas, guys who are built like houses Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan, etc can last forever.

If I had to, I'd wager that Pedro was one of the guys not using (same with Mariano). But I wouldn't bet the house on a single player from that era. Firmly in the 'everybody's suspect' camp.

 

[mauconnfan]

I mean, you can make that delineation if you want (best ever at position), but all the other guys already in the Hall didn't get that same treatment. The Top 5 guys to ever play the game (at any position) aren't unanimous, so it's hard to now arbitrarily apply that same label. And I think we can agree that Mariano is not in the Top 5 (any position) to ever play the game.

I'm also not saying Pedro was the best ever. Just the best I've seen in my lifetime. I can't speak to the hundred odd years before me.

And I'm not at all saying that because I am a Sox fan. You can go back and watch him pitch, and even now, it's mind boggling stuff. I still don't know how he did what he did with a baseball.

I won't be surprised if Jeter gets in unanimously*, mainly, because sportswriters loved his button up straight-edged style. And he does not remotely deserve it under your criteria.

*although if there's a Marlins writer voting, there's a chance he takes out the current state of the club on Jeter's candidacy lol

I don' think there's any way #2 gets unanimous, just my 2 cents.

Pedro, Mariano - steroid era we speak of who knows what either were doing. Would love to believe both were clean but who knows, who cares. 2 greats!

 

[intlzncster]

Pedro, Mariano - steroid era we speak of who knows what either were doing. Would love to believe both were clean but who knows, who cares. 2 greats!

Exactly. Nobody knows. And that furthers the point that all these guys should be in the Hall.

I was only saying, if I was forced to bet on great players who weren't juicing, I'd bet on the Pedro's and Mariano's of the world.

But I wouldn't bet the house.

 

[mauconnfan]

Hilarious that some posters are citing RBI

Hilarious that no one would....if you don't drive in runs what the heck you doing offensively unless you lead off? It's called baseball and it's been one of the main stats forever hasn't changed.

 

[Robertelamin]

When is Bobby Bonilla getting in? His contract alone is the stuff of legends.

 

[Excalibur]

Neither deserve to be in the HOF but Evans would have a better argument. He was a great OFer with one of the best arms ever in MLB but .272, 70 RBI a year isn't HOF numbers although there are worst in it. Baines a much better hitter in his prime but lasted only because he could hit, didn't play in the field all that much late and wasn't at all that good.

I'm with you that neither should be in. But a much better hitter in his prime? Do the numbers I posted mean anything? Baines had a prettier swing, that's about it.

Evans' two best seasons:

1987 -- .305 BA, 34 HR, 123 RBI, .986 OPS, 106 walks.
1982 -- .292 BA, 32 HR, 98 RBI, .932 OPS, 112 walks.
(his 1981 season was actually better but tough to compare due to the strike)

Baines' best two:

1984 -- .304 BA, 29 HR, 94 RBI, .903 OPS, 54 walks
1999 -- .312 BA, 25 HR, 103 RBI, .919 OPS, 54 walks (extra credit for doing this at age 40)

 

[The Viking]

It always amazes me that Dave Winfield got in but Evans didn't get a whiff and was dropped off the ballot.
Evans had a higher WAR (a counting stat) despite having 2000 less at bats and won a ton of gold gloves playing the toughest right field in baseball

 

[Excalibur]

Hilarious that some posters are citing RBI

I use it because the old folks still value it . . .

 

[intlzncster]

When is Bobby Bonilla getting in? His contract alone is the stuff of legends.

His agent sure should be in. Genius.

 

[The Viking]

Not to mention Evans OPS in world series games was .977 while winfield was .414

 

[Husky25]

Neither deserve to be in the HOF but Evans would have a better argument. He was a great OFer with one of the best arms ever in MLB but .272, 70 RBI a year isn't HOF numbers although there are worst in it. Baines a much better hitter in his prime but lasted only because he could hit, didn't play in the field all that much late and wasn't at all that good.

It's a sliding scale, but if you froze it here Cal Ripken is at best borderline. If he played outfield, he would be on the outside looking in.

I think outfield defense is historically undervalued and it's harder to distinguish yourself offensively because as an outfielder, you're expected to crush the ball. Ripken was an above average SS, but he could hit better than his contemporaries. The Iron Man perception didn't hurt, but it really should not have helped either. Just my opinion.

 

[Husky25]

When is Bobby Bonilla getting in? His contract alone is the stuff of legends.

The Mets are still paying him. Aren't they?

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Well Griffey also declined with age (as expected) unlike Bonds and Clemens.

Nolan Ryan got better with age also well before the the alleged “era”
Pete Rose who should be in the HOF except we don’tbelieve In forgiveness played well into his forties.
Even though I believe his hit totals were somewhat inflated by the prevalent national league surfaces of his day , its still amazing that he stayed competitive so long playing on that concrete.
For you Youngster a well hit ground ball not directly hit at someone was a hit and might easily even get between two outfielders. It was a crazy game.
The downside was careers were usually shortened and it really was an imitation of baseball.

 

[Husky25]

Baines had a prettier swing, that's about it.

Oh, PLEASE!!!!

Dewey had the quintessential Walt Hreniak swing. Who in New England didn't imitate that swing playing Wiffle Ball?

 

[Robertelamin]

The Mets are still paying him. Aren't they?

Yup, the Mets pay him every July 1st through 2035.