OT: Player who didn’t make the baseball Hall of Fame that you think should?

[The Viking]

Nobody cares about football players in part because football IS a gladiator sport and a gambling sport.
It's not about sport where you get romantic about records like Hank Aaron's HR record. It's about guys moving 100 MPH a minute, it's about fantasy football and its about whether Team A covered the spread.

I'm not saying you don't root for your own team, you do. But they only play once a week for four months and there just isn't that attachment that there is with baseball where its there every day for 7 months. Its like a battlefield in football. You don't worry about the deaths, just the victories. And the fantasy football. And the spread.

 

[Husky25]

I would be surprised by any players who are not doing roids and hgh in football.

It just doesn't make sense that we care so much about it in baseball but nobody cares they all do it in football. Bigger, stronger, faster in football means more head injuries in that sport. Bigger, stronger, faster in baseball means more home runs. You either think of football players as gladiators and don't care about them going brain dead or you actually care about their safety and want to get rid of that stuff, you can't have it both ways.

 

[FatElvis]

Pettite has 19 postseason wins, the most all time. You may want to consider that.

No doubt that's amazing. But he also had 11 losses to go along with his 3.81 lifetime postseason ERA. Hardly Madison Bumgarner numbers.

And considering he started 41 games in the postseason that means he won less than half those games with the best offense money could buy. If he didn't pitch in so many postseason games with the Yankees, I hardly doubt anyone would be talking about him as a HOFer.

 

[Husky25]

You put snot on the ball?!?

"I haven't got an arm like you, kid. I have to put anything on it I can find."

 

[jibsey]

I happened to meet and talk to Pedro one time a year or so ago at an airport. He was sitting by himself with no one bugging him which I found unbelievable (it’s like Babe Ruth or something IMO) I told him I was a Yankee fan but I thought that he and Koufax were the best of all time and that they were on a different level than many HOF’er pitchers, and he seemed very happy with that comment and comparison, his eyes lit up. I also asked him how he did it, he smiled and said “hard work!”. Great guy.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Hilarious that some posters are citing RBI

Why, just curious. Hack Wilson strongly disagrees by the way.

 

[Madmannsucks]

It's a sliding scale, but if you froze it here Cal Ripken is at best borderline. If he played outfield, he would be on the outside looking in.

I think outfield defense is historically undervalued and it's harder to distinguish yourself offensively because as an outfielder, you're expected to crush the ball. Ripken was an above average SS, but he could hit better than his contemporaries. The Iron Man perception didn't hurt, but it really should not have helped either. Just my opinion.

A better comparison might be Brooks Robinson who had good(not great offensive #'s but considered on of the best ever defensively at his position. Similar to Evans. Ripken is in because of the streak which elevates his status to legendary.

 

[Huskybass]

No doubt that's amazing. But he also had 11 losses to go along with his 3.81 lifetime postseason ERA. Hardly Madison Bumgarner numbers.

And considering he started 41 games in the postseason that means he won less than half those games with the best offense money could buy. If he didn't pitch in so many postseason games with the Yankees, I hardly doubt anyone would be talking about him as a HOFer.

My point is that he has 19 postseason wins and 5 Wold Series rings, meaning he was an integral part of those 5. I am a Red Sox fan but I have a healthy respect for the Yankee greats.

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

My point is that he has 19 postseason wins and 5 Wold Series rings, meaning he was an integral part of those 5. I am a Red Sox fan but I have a healthy respect for the Yankee greats.

Always thought that Mussina and pettite were two of the grossest pitchers people thought were super good. Neither of them had nasty stuff, just above average. Comparing to modern players, they remind me a lot more of porcello than sale

 

[superjohn]

Always thought that Mussina and pettite were two of the grossest pitchers people thought were super good. Neither of them had nasty stuff, just above average. Comparing to modern players, they remind me a lot more of porcello than sale

WTF, dude...

As a Red Sox fan, I will say I never once feared facing pettite in the playoffs. In fact, actually preferred it.

Only talent that stood out about pettite was his extremely borderline-balk pickoff move to 1st.

Always thought that Mussina and pettite were two of the grossest pitchers people thought were super good. Neither of them had nasty stuff, just above average. Comparing to modern players, they remind me a lot more of porcello than sale

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

WTF, dude...

It’s true, pettites best pitch was a good cutter, not great. He was good at pick offs which were really balks. Mussina had a loopy knuckle curve that got lots of weak contact, but was hardly a wipeout pitch.

They built themselves on consistency and endurance over a full season. Sounds a lot like rick porcello

 

[storrsroars]

The problem with RBIs are they are team dependent. If you have bad teammates you get less opportunities. It’s really no different than a great pitcher who gets no run support having a mediocre record.

True, but doesn't mean RBI aren't important. It's useful to look at opportunities vs results. BP compiles that.

One of the biggest issues I had with Andrew McCutchen in his last year with the Pirates was how often he stranded RISP. In 2016 his OBI (Others Batted In) rate was a fairly miserable 13.6%. You could count on a grounder to 3b almost every time he got up in an RISP situation when his strength was always going to the RC gap. FWIW, generally the league leaders are >20% in any given season.

 

[Stainmaster]

Why, just curious. Hack Wilson strongly disagrees by the way.

why rbi is a bad stat - Google Search

Why should we listen to Hack Wilson?

 

[storrsroars]

why rbi is a bad stat - Google Search

Why should we listen to Hack Wilson?

Because if he's talking to you, that's proof you can communicate with the other side.

 

[FatElvis]

My point is that he has 19 postseason wins and 5 Wold Series rings, meaning he was an integral part of those 5. I am a Red Sox fan but I have a healthy respect for the Yankee greats.

It's a fair point, those 19 wins demand respect. But still, he was consistently good more than he was great. He allowed more hits than innings pitched, never struck out 200 in a season and pitched 4 shoutouts – his entire career. There were dozens of pitchers in his time that could have won 19 of 41 postseason starts. The fact that he started that many is more impressive than the actual win total.

Scott Brosius earned 3 World Series rings in his 4 seasons with the Yankees. There's a whiff of Tyler Olander behind that 5 ring story. Of course Petit was more important to those teams. But again, winning 46% of your postseason starts is more good than great in my book.

 

[Huskybass]

It's a fair point, those 19 wins demand respect. But still, he was consistently good more than he was great. He allowed more hits than innings pitched, never struck out 200 in a season and pitched 4 shoutouts – his entire career. There were dozens of pitchers in his time that could have won 19 of 41 postseason starts. The fact that he started that many is more impressive than the actual win total.

Scott Brosius earned 3 World Series rings in his 4 seasons with the Yankees. There's a whiff of Tyler Olander behind that 5 ring story. Of course Petit was more important to those teams. But again, winning 46% of your postseason starts is more good than great in my book.

I certainly understand where you are coming from. I guess I just place more importance on the sheer number of postseason wins and rings. I personally would have enjoyed being Pettite more than being say Nolan Ryan simply due to the number of championships. Perhaps that makes his career fantastic in a way, but not quite HOF worthy. I guess I hope he gets in one day is all.

 

[boog204]

It’s true, pettites best pitch was a good cutter, not great. He was good at pick offs which were really balks. Mussina had a loopy knuckle curve that got lots of weak contact, but was hardly a wipeout pitch.

They built themselves on consistency and endurance over a full season. Sounds a lot like rick porcello

Neither were Sale, but there's gotta be a middle ground above Porcello, a guy who has really had 3 good years in his career; two of which are recent. Mussina was a top 5-6 finisher in the Cy Young 9 times in his career losing out to Eck, Clemens x2, Pedro x2, Pat Hentgen (should have been Pettitte), Randy Johnson, and David Cone. So he lost out 6 times (counting Clemens) to Hall of Fame caliber pitchers and Coney was no slouch.

I will give you Pettitte in the sense that he was a very good pitcher on great teams. Most Yankee fans know that he is not close to a hall of fame pitcher.

 

[boog204]

A better comparison might be Brooks Robinson who had good(not great offensive #'s but considered on of the best ever defensively at his position. Similar to Evans. Ripken is in because of the streak which elevates his status to legendary.

Ripken is an interesting one. The streak is otherworldly and stands on his own. But he did have 3000+ hits (some compiling there) and ushered in the era of the bigger shortstop of the 90s who could hit. So that is significant. Also, a two-time MVP. At the same time, his career OPS is under 800 and he had quite a few pretty pedestrian years. Purely hypothetical, but without the streak and 3000 hits, is he a first ballot HOF? If Biggio didn't get to 3000, I don't know if he gets in. He basically becomes Johnny Damon.

 

[intlzncster]

Ripken is an interesting one. The streak is otherworldly and stands on his own. But he did have 3000+ hits (some compiling there) and ushered in the era of the bigger shortstop of the 90s who could hit. So that is significant. Also, a two-time MVP. At the same time, his career OPS is under 800 and he had quite a few pretty pedestrian years. Purely hypothetical, but without the streak and 3000 hits, is he a first ballot HOF? If Biggio didn't get to 3000, I don't know if he gets in. He basically becomes Johnny Damon.

Or thinking of it, if his playing time was managed appropriately, he might have had a few more good seasons.

I think the streak took away from his effectiveness. He also played through some injuries he shouldn't have.

 

[lavuuk153]

"I haven't got an arm like you, kid. I have to put anything on it I can find."

One day you will too.

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

Neither were Sale, but there's gotta be a middle ground above Porcello, a guy who has really had 3 good years in his career; two of which are recent. Mussina was a top 5-6 finisher in the Cy Young 9 times in his career losing out to Eck, Clemens x2, Pedro x2, Pat Hentgen (should have been Pettitte), Randy Johnson, and David Cone. So he lost out 6 times (counting Clemens) to Hall of Fame caliber pitchers and Coney was no slouch.

I will give you Pettitte in the sense that he was a very good pitcher on great teams. Most Yankee fans know that he is not close to a hall of fame pitcher.

I will say that Mussina was crafty and hit his spots. Didn’t necessarily have the best stuff but pitched well.

Just checked out pettites number, didn’t realize he had 11 seasons where he put up close to a 4.00 era or worst. That is certainly not hall of fame worthy. Stand by my rock porcello statement. In fact, their stats are actually pretty similar based off where rick is in his career...

 

[superjohn]

I will say that Mussina was crafty and hit his spots. Didn’t necessarily have the best stuff but pitched well.

Just checked out pettites number, didn’t realize he had 11 seasons where he put up close to a 4.00 era or worst. That is certainly not hall of fame worthy. Stand by my rock porcello statement. In fact, their stats are actually pretty similar based off where rick is in his career...

Is Porcello also one of the grossest?

 

[Dove]

Always thought that Mussina and pettite were two of the grossest pitchers people thought were super good. Neither of them had nasty stuff, just above average. Comparing to modern players, they remind me a lot more of porcello than sale

post/handle, doofus.

Swung on and missed!!!!!!

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

Is Porcello also one of the grossest?

Actually yes, I would say porcello is the grossest Cy Young winner in the past 20 years, except maybe for RA Dickey

 

[Robertelamin]

What does grossest even mean in this context? Seems like an odd word to use if you are just saying they aren’t HOF worthy.