OT: I was wrong about Steph Curry

[Matrim55]

What no one could have predicted, though, was how the Spurs adjustments in the late 00s changed the game. In realizing the value of the 3, they began to reshape what was valued in a player and open up space.

It's actually the Suns who deserve credit for that - Pop even says it's D'Antoni who changed the NBA.

And the whole thing makes me sad for Ray, because he was born 15 years too soon. If he was just entering his prime today he'd be 15% more valuable than he was (and he's both a surefire Hall of Famer and a top 7ish SG of all-time).

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Steph Curry is absolutely the best player in the NBA right now. The difference between Steph Curry's PER and Lebron's PER is the same as between Lebron and Kenneth Faried. Also, Steph's Estimated Wins Added is 33% higher and he has a true shooting percentage 100 points higher. He is also averaging more assists and fewer turnovers with a nearly identical usage rate, and putting up 45/50/90 while averaging over 30 points. Its not close offensively, and that is not accounting for the impact he has on opposing defenses without touching the ball.

Lebron is arguably the greatest player of all time and definitely top 5, but he his athleticism has slipped and he is not the same player he was 5 years ago, particularly on the defensive end. The advanced metrics actually favor Curry as a defender over Lebron. People's perceptions of his defensive ability are still lagging behid reality.

The credit Lebron gets as a defender has always been pretty overblown. He wasn't a good defender until about 2009, and even then he was way better as a help defender than as a lock down man defense type of guy. The only time I saw him take a man and play good defense was a pre injury Rose, but that was Lebron's prime vs a guy 6" shorter who couldn't shoot.

Swap Curry for LeBron on the Cavs and they are demonstrably worse. Put LeBron on the Warriors and they are different, but even devil's advocates could only argue minor dropoff or they could actually get better via defensive upgrade.

But no question Curry is the MVP last season and this season. And Curry is a better offensive player than LeBron over the past two regular seasons. Remember though Igoudola was finals MVP and LeBron was more valuable in the finals.

FINALS STATS (Curry shot 4.5% better = 1 more make per 22 shots & had more steals, otherwise LeBron)
Player: PTS, FG%, REB, ASSISTS, Steals, TO
Curry: 156, 44.3%, 31, 38, 11, 28
LeBron: 215, 39.8%, 80, 53, 8, 21

Lebron's usage rate in the finals was off the charts and his efficiency sucked. He basically turned into Iverson.

I HATE the mouth guard chewing. I think he is just trying to look cute. Also he is very pompous but he kind of has the right to be, still don't like it. Draymond annoys me alot more though. He acts like every shot he hits was the best shot ever, gets in peoples faces for no reason and is just an annoyance. Don't get me wrong, great player, I do think his stats are inflated a good amount due to the system, but the Warriors as a whole just kind of irk me

One of the main reasons Draymond is good is because he has that chip on his shoulder after being overlooked as a draft prospect. He's demonstrative, but he does a lot of the dirty work for his team and doesn't play like a thug or seem like a troublemaker off the court.

Players that play different positions fit differently with different teams - I guess its not stupid to point that out but it doesn't effect the debate on who is better. Nevertheless, LeBron has literally proven that whatever team he is on, Cavs, Heat, Cavs again will make the finals. Add LeBron to a team and its a championship contender, we simply don't have that evidence with Curry.

Also that's why I put the finals stats in, I think more relevant to the debate, but I suppose next someone will point out that Curry and LeBron each played with different teammates against different defenses.

Lebron has also played in a weak as hell eastern conference, and nobody can deny that those Heat teams and this current Cavs team are pretty loaded relative to what else is going on in the conference.

 

[aceboon]

It's actually the Suns who deserve credit for that - Pop even says it's D'Antoni who changed the NBA.

And the whole thing makes me sad for Ray, because he was born 15 years too soon. If he was just entering his prime today he'd be 15% more valuable than he was (and he's both a surefire Hall of Famer and a top 7ish SG of all-time).

Yup, it was after the Suns swept the Spurs with Gentry still using D'Antoni's offensive system that made Pop revamp the Spurs style of play.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Pointing out that LeBron has taken multiple teams to the finals as a justification for his superiority this year proves my point, you are too swayed by perception based upon historical performance. All that matters in determining the best player in the NBA is where these two guys are now.

Curry would definitely make the Heat a finals contender and probably the Celtics too. The Celtics' point differential for the year is not that far behind the Cavs. Add Curry and they become the favorite in the East.

So I assume you admit that LeBron was the consensus best player at least until some moment over the last 1.5 seasons now that we've established taking multiple teams to the finals is what the best player can do.
However it is still really, really close, it is still subjective and can't be proven even though I can prove LeBron takes multiple teams to the finals and you can never do the same with Curry. Who was better IN the NBA finals last year?
Incidentally I think Curry is having a better regular season than LeBron and will continue to do so and likely win another MVP that he will deserve just like he deserved last years. I think LeBron will take some time off and find another playoff gear like he has in the past. If he doesn't then I will transfer the hypothetical crown. If LeBron and Cavs win the championship then well.....

 

[KingOPancakes]

The credit Lebron gets as a defender has always been pretty overblown. He wasn't a good defender until about 2009, and even then he was way better as a help defender than as a lock down man defense type of guy. The only time I saw him take a man and play good defense was a pre injury Rose, but that was Lebron's prime vs a guy 6" shorter who couldn't shoot.



Lebron's usage rate in the finals was off the charts and his efficiency sucked. He basically turned into Iverson.



One of the main reasons Draymond is good is because he has that chip on his shoulder after being overlooked as a draft prospect. He's demonstrative, but he does a lot of the dirty work for his team and doesn't play like a thug or seem like a troublemaker off the court.



Lebron has also played in a weak as hell eastern conference, and nobody can deny that those Heat teams and this current Cavs team are pretty loaded relative to what else is going on in the conference.

While I don't really disagree with anything you said here, you'll always be the guy that still staunchly believes the powerball lump sum number already factors in taxes, even when presented with mountains of evidence to the contrary. So....

 

[tzznandrew]

It's actually the Suns who deserve credit for that - Pop even says it's D'Antoni who changed the NBA.

And the whole thing makes me sad for Ray, because he was born 15 years too soon. If he was just entering his prime today he'd be 15% more valuable than he was (and he's both a surefire Hall of Famer and a top 7ish SG of all-time).

Sure, the innovations were D'Antoni's, but the league didn't start to follow, really, until the Spurs starting winning with it. 7 seconds or less was a gimmick, and then suddenly wasn't.

D'Antonio's the innovator, Pop's the activator. Sort of a Jesus/Constantine thing.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

While I don't really disagree with anything you said here, you'll always be the guy that still staunchly believes the powerball lump sum number already factors in taxes, even when presented with mountains of evidence to the contrary. So....

I was never proven wrong, so...

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I love LeBron. Love love love LeBron. Maybe my favorite NBA player ever. Love everything about his game, his approach, how he can poke fun at himself, etc. Curry is better than he is now. It's a bummer, because I thought LeBron would be the dominant player in the NBA until at least his mid-30s, and that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't think this affects LeBron's legacy, which is still as an all-timer, so much as it shows what an unbelievable generational talent Curry is.

Yeah Curry has easily been the best player this year. Another point to think about is LeBron was pretty much a star in the league as an 18 year old, it took Curry a few years til he was about 25 to be at All Star level.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Sure, put Lebron on any team in the past 6 years in the terrible East and they're a Finals contender. I think the same would be true for last and this year's version of Curry.

I think this is off base.
Curry has a great supporting cast, with several guys who are going to have excellent careers, and played last season with a guy coming off the bench who would have started on every other team in the league. LeBron took a Cavs team to the finals that had 9 guys on it that aren't on the top 500 players of all time list and that few people outside of Cleveland could name. Absolutely NO WAY Curry could carry a team of Bums like LeBron has. Last year, for instance, LeBron managed to win 2 games in the finals against Curry's team. With Delavedova starting and guarding Curry!!!!! I mean, COME ON MAN!

It just occurred to me that I don't like Curry for the same reason I don't like Peyton Manning, which is to say that they're both great, but too many people argue that they're greater than they are.

 

[7774]

I was never proven wrong, so...

You think the lump sum already takes taxes into account? That explains so much about your basketball related posts.

 

[superjohn]

I think this is off base.
Curry has a great supporting cast, with several guys who are going to have excellent careers, and played last season with a guy coming off the bench who would have started on every other team in the league. LeBron took a Cavs team to the finals that had 9 guys on it that aren't on the top 500 players of all time list and that few people outside of Cleveland could name. Absolutely NO WAY Curry could carry a team of Bums like LeBron has. Last year, for instance, LeBron managed to win 2 games in the finals against Curry's team. With Delavedova starting and guarding Curry!!!!! I mean, COME ON MAN!

It just occurred to me that I don't like Curry for the same reason I don't like Peyton Manning, which is to say that they're both great, but too many people argue that they're greater than they are.

That's a long time ago that Lebron took the cast of nobodies to the finals where they got destroyed. The poster said in the last 6 years Lebron could take anyone on the garbage East to the finals, it just so happened he took hand picked teams that were loaded with talent. As for Curry's great supporting cast of guys that will have excellent careers, just who are you talking about? You argued vehemently last year that Draymond Green is overrated and only does well because of the system he plays in. Iguadola's career was looking like it was close to over before he came to Oakland. He's a nice Jack of all trades player but he's nearing the end and only averaged 7 ppg last year and this year. Klay Thompson is the second best shooter in the league but what is all the other great talent that will have excellent careers? Take Curry off this team and they would struggle mightily. I get that you don't like Curry and he keeps proving you wrong but the reality is the reality, dude is dominating the league.

 

[superjohn]

I was never proven wrong, so...

Is this serious?

 

[jleves]

Is this serious?

He is serious even after being presented several links and quotes - here you go.

It's worth reading most of the 4th page.

 

[superjohn]

He is serious even after being presented several links and quotes - here you go.

It's worth reading most of the 4th page.

It's kind of shocking he knows how to use a computer.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I still have Lebron as the best player in the NBA but if Curry wins another NBA Finals this year I sure have to think about it.

Curry didn't win an NBA championship ,the Warriors did,he has a great cast around him.
Put Curry on last year's Cleveland team without Lebron,and how far would he have carried them. Certainly not into the finals.

 

[alfonse]

This is an interesting comparison for sure. I mean Lebron has been the man for a while. But Lebron is bigger and stronger than people. He either shoots an open jump shot or takes it to the hoop and overpowers his opponent. Of course his speed for his size is pretty ridiculous too. What is amazing about Curry is he is doing things differently than people have done before. I mean he gets open from lots of moves and fakes and such. But what is shocking about some of his shots, is how he shoots them while being well defended. I mean people love Ray here, I mean I loved Ray he was amazing. But he shot when he was open. Curry will drill it in your face and these are nba players knowing full well hes going to do that. On top of that he is shooting over 50% somehow shooting in people's face and probably over half of his shots being 3 pointers. Its amazing to watch because nobody has done it consistently like that before. Hes the best in the nba right now. Lebron still has it but he seems tired. All of those years add up, I know hes not old but they add up. I expect Lebron will raise his level again at some point, and I hope he does cause it will be great to watch.

 

[KingOPancakes]

Curry didn't win an NBA championship ,the Warriors did,he has a great cast around him.
Put Curry on last year's Cleveland team without Lebron,and how far would he have carried them. Certainly not into the finals.

Lebron didn't win a championship, the Heat did. Let's not act like he didn't have 3 other sure fire future hall of famers helping him out in Miami, one of which some people in this very thread say is a better shooter than curry.

Put lebron on last years warriors and they're no better than last years cavs with curry.

 

[superjohn]

Curry didn't win an NBA championship ,the Warriors did,he has a great cast around him.
Put Curry on last year's Cleveland team without Lebron,and how far would he have carried them. Certainly not into the finals.

Idiotic, Lebron won with an all-star team and hand picked a new all-star team when he went back to Cleveland.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Idiotic, Lebron won with an all-star team and hand picked a new all-star team when he went back to Cleveland.

Kevin Love isn't really all star level consistently anymore, Kyrie is constantly injured and their bench is pretty bad. I wouldn't say this Cleveland team is an all star team.

 

[superjohn]

Kevin Love isn't really all star level consistently anymore, Kyrie is constantly injured and their bench is pretty bad. I wouldn't say this Cleveland team is an all star team.

Irving was considered right there with Curry for best young point guard in the league and a top 10 league player, Kevin Love was considered by some to be the best pf in the league. For you people that claim Lebron makes his teammates better than Curry does, why is it that Curry's teammates seem to be improving while Lebron's are regressing and Curry's team is much better than Lebron's? You can't have it both ways.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Irving was considered right there with Curry for best young point guard in the league and a top 10 league player, Kevin Love was considered by some to be the best pf in the league. For you people that claim Lebron makes his teammates better than Curry does, why is it that Curry's teammates seem to be improving while Lebron's are regressing and Curry's team is much better than Lebron's? You can't have it both ways.

I think alot of the reason why KLove is regressing is because he insists on being a corner specialist for some reason. And Kyrie still had a great season last year, he just got injured at the end and obviously hasn't been the same since, but he will be fine in a little time. About LeBron not making his teammates better like Curry does, how about all those Cleveland teams his first 7 season? Who were his best teammates? Mo Williams? Antwan Jamison? Daniel Gibson? He consistently averaged 5-7 assists and has been a great defender his whole career. He never had a team remotely near to what Curry has in his first stint with Cleveland.

 

[Phorcys]

I was never proven wrong, so...

Google it.

 

[aceboon]

I think alot of the reason why KLove is regressing is because he insists on being a corner specialist for some reason. And Kyrie still had a great season last year, he just got injured at the end and obviously hasn't been the same since, but he will be fine in a little time. About LeBron not making his teammates better like Curry does, how about all those Cleveland teams his first 7 season? Who were his best teammates? Mo Williams? Antwan Jamison? Daniel Gibson? He consistently averaged 5-7 assists and has been a great defender his whole career. He never had a team remotely near to what Curry has in his first stint with Cleveland.

Love isn't insisting on being a corner or 3 point shooting specialist, that's how he's being used and what he's reduced to while having to play a diminished role next to Bron and Irving. Its no different that what happened with Bosh when he left Toronto.

 

[superjohn]

I think alot of the reason why KLove is regressing is because he insists on being a corner specialist for some reason. And Kyrie still had a great season last year, he just got injured at the end and obviously hasn't been the same since, but he will be fine in a little time. About LeBron not making his teammates better like Curry does, how about all those Cleveland teams his first 7 season? Who were his best teammates? Mo Williams? Antwan Jamison? Daniel Gibson? He consistently averaged 5-7 assists and has been a great defender his whole career. He never had a team remotely near to what Curry has in his first stint with Cleveland.

This whole discussion is about who is better right now yet you and many others keep bringing up Lebron leading the Cavs to the finals 9 years ago. Yes Lebron was a million times better than Curry at that time but it has nothing to do with anything. Jason Kidd also led two Nets teams to the finals where Kenyon Martin was the second best player and Luscious Harris was one of the best players, that also isn't relevant but shows how awful the East has been over the last 15 years. If your argument is Lebron made his teammates better than Curry did 9 years ago then you win.

 

[superjohn]

Love isn't insisting on being a corner or 3 point shooting specialist, that's how he's being used and what he's reduced to while having to play a diminished role next to Bron and Irving. Its no different that what happened with Bosh when he left Toronto.

Bingo, Love will be shipped out soon.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

This whole discussion is about who is better right now yet you and many others keep bringing up Lebron leading the Cavs to the finals 9 years ago. Yes Lebron was a million times better than Curry at that time but it has nothing to do with anything. Jason Kidd also led two Nets teams to the finals where Kenyon Martin was the second best player and Luscious Harris was one of the best players, that also isn't relevant but shows how awful the East has been over the last 15 years. If your argument is Lebron made his teammates better than Curry did 9 years ago then you win.

Oh okay, I thought we were comparing the players leading different teams my bad. Steph is playing the best right now and has since probably mid-last season, although, and I know you and some others might argue this, I did think Harden should've won MVP. But, I do think LeBron is still superior in more facets of the game, just my opinion.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Idiotic, Lebron won with an all-star team and hand picked a new all-star team when he went back to Cleveland.

You're off the hook. You keep suggesting that LBJ "hand picked" his team, as if - even if true - that should count against him.
No Love and no Irving and no Verajao and one other guy was gimpy in the finals and he STILL took two games from your team. That is a monstrous accomplishment. He sure didn't hand pick Delavedova to be his starting point guard.

Curry has been in the league for 6 full seasons. The first three, his team made the playoffs ZERO times. DID . . . NOT . . . EVEN . . . MAKE . . . THE . . . PLAYOFFS. Further, he was 21 years old already when he came into the league. The next two years, he gets booted in the 2nd round and then booted in the 1st round. 1st round boot! GONE! In his first five seasons the guy only gets out of the 1st round one time, then promptly loses.

This strikes you as "great player who can carry his team?"

LeBron took a bunch of BUMS past the first round every year for his first six years. BUMS, I tell ya, BUMS. Here's the list from his first year:

Andriuskevicius, Martynas, Gooden, Drew, Graham, Stephen, Henderson, Alan, Hughes, Larry, Ilgauskas, Zydrunas, Jackson, Luke, Jones, Damon, Marshall, Donyell,Murray, Ronald Shaw, Newble, Ira, Pavlović, Aleksandar, Snow, Eric, Varejão, Anderson

Amazing.

Finally, take a hard look at Curry's stats from last year versus the previous two years, when his team got bounced in the 1st round and the 2nd round. They are virtually the same as they were last year. Point is, why was Curry not carrying his team past the 1st round if he is that awesome? Answer - he's not in the same echelon as a guy like LBJ. He finally made it out of the first round when he had a dominant team around him.
Guy has one - ONE - year's worth of success and people are comparing him to LBJ.

 

[Huskyforlife]

You're off the hook. You keep suggesting that LBJ "hand picked" his team, as if - even if true - that should count against him.
No Love and no Irving and no Verajao and one other guy was gimpy in the finals and he STILL took two games from your team. That is a monstrous accomplishment. He sure didn't hand pick Delavedova to be his starting point guard.

Curry has been in the league for 6 full seasons. The first three, his team made the playoffs ZERO times. DID . . . NOT . . . EVEN . . . MAKE . . . THE . . . PLAYOFFS. Further, he was 21 years old already when he came into the league. The next two years, he gets booted in the 2nd round and then booted in the 1st round. 1st round boot! GONE! In his first five seasons the guy only gets out of the 1st round one time, then promptly loses.

This strikes you as "great player who can carry his team?"

LeBron took a bunch of BUMS past the first round every year for his first six years. BUMS, I tell ya, BUMS. Here's the list from his first year:

Andriuskevicius, Martynas, Gooden, Drew, Graham, Stephen, Henderson, Alan, Hughes, Larry, Ilgauskas, Zydrunas, Jackson, Luke, Jones, Damon, Marshall, Donyell,Murray, Ronald Shaw, Newble, Ira, Pavlović, Aleksandar, Snow, Eric, Varejão, Anderson

Amazing.

Finally, take a hard look at Curry's stats from last year versus the previous two years, when his team got bounced in the 1st round and the 2nd round. They are virtually the same as they were last year. Point is, why was Curry not carrying his team past the 1st round if he is that awesome? Answer - he's not in the same echelon as a guy like LBJ. He finally made it out of the first round when he had a dominant team around him.
Guy has one - ONE - year's worth of success and people are comparing him to LBJ.

How is any of this relevent to this year?

 

[polycom]

He is serious even after being presented several links and quotes - here you go.

It's worth reading most of the 4th page.

Reading this is upsetting. Whats even more upsetting is they allow people who are this dense to drive. How do we know they wont just make up their own traffic rules.

 

[Adios]

Curry is definitely a better GM than LeBron.