OT: I was wrong about Steph Curry

[CardiacAndre7]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/73720/the-big-number-steph-curry-paint-by-numbers No they are being held to the same standards, the whole point of the thread is to compare them for what's going on right now. Are you really trying to say that Lebron is having a better season than Curry? I don't even see how that's arguable.

Shooting a better percentage doesn't mean he is a better paint scorer. I guarantee LeBron gets alot more contact going to the rim than Curry, which obviously causes missed shots. Steph may be more creative with the way he puts spin on the ball and makes awkward layups, but you can't tell me he is a better paint scorer than LeBron.

 

[alfonse]

You are either very young or didn't watch much NBA during Ray's prime. Either way, you are wrong. In his prime Ray scored in all kinds of ways, while usually being guarded by the other team's best defensive player.

I love Ray and watched him from Uconn on. I remember a playoff game with the bucks where they were down 1 with the ball and like 8 seconds left. Ray blew by his guy and threw down a massive dunk for the win. I agree Ray scored in all sorts of ways. He used his quickness athleticism and jumping ability to create space and score. What he did not do was REGULARLY shoot 30 footers right in peoples face. Ray did not need much room to shoot those but he needed some. Just saying Curry is like nothing we have seen before. Ray was in the mold of Drexler and Jordan. Smartly he crafted his 3 point shooting to extend his career a great deal. To be honest in a game of horse with Curry right now and Ray in his shooting prime(Seattle?) Ray may beat him more than not. I read in NBA the art of the beautiful game that Rashard Lewis was lucky to win 2 games out of 100 in Horse with Ray. Anyway I was not hating on Ray, guy was sick. Just shocking to see the way Curry is playing now night in and out.

The shooting skill of these players is out of this world btw. On Vacation when I was young I saw Seattle play Phoenix at Phoenix. Seattle had the big 3, Chambers, Mcdaniel, and Dale Ellis. Phoenix who was nobody at the time had a young Jeff Hornacek and a rookie Kevin Johnson. Warming up I could not believe Dale Ellis. He set up at 3 and made like 10 in a row, then started bouncing the balls really high and shooting 3s of the catch and hitting every one. Anyway great game Phoenix pulled it out and a small guard named Kevin Johnson turned it on. Did not know who he was at the time but we all know what happened there. Sorry got a little sidetracked...

 

[superjohn]

Shooting a better percentage doesn't mean he is a better paint scorer. I guarantee LeBron gets alot more contact going to the rim than Curry, which obviously causes missed shots. Steph may be more creative with the way he puts spin on the ball and makes awkward layups, but you can't tell me he is a better paint scorer than LeBron.

I kind of just threw paint scorer in there because I think most people don't think of Curry scoring near the rim even though he's as efficient as anyone in the league at it. It's amazing at Curry's size how proficient he is in the paint.

 

[superjohn]

I love Ray and watched him from Uconn on. I remember a playoff game with the bucks where they were down 1 with the ball and like 8 seconds left. Ray blew by his guy and threw down a massive dunk for the win. I agree Ray scored in all sorts of ways. He used his quickness athleticism and jumping ability to create space and score. What he did not do was REGULARLY shoot 30 footers right in peoples face. Ray did not need much room to shoot those but he needed some. Just saying Curry is like nothing we have seen before. Ray was in the mold of Drexler and Jordan. Smartly he crafted his 3 point shooting to extend his career a great deal. To be honest in a game of horse with Curry right now and Ray in his shooting prime(Seattle?) Ray may beat him more than not. I read in NBA the art of the beautiful game that Rashard Lewis was lucky to win 2 games out of 100 in Horse with Ray. Anyway I was not hating on Ray, guy was sick. Just shocking to see the way Curry is playing now night in and out.

The shooting skill of these players is out of this world btw. On Vacation when I was young I saw Seattle play Phoenix at Phoenix. Seattle had the big 3, Chambers, Mcdaniel, and Dale Ellis. Phoenix who was nobody at the time had a young Jeff Hornacek and a rookie Kevin Johnson. Warming up I could not believe Dale Ellis. He set up at 3 and made like 10 in a row, then started bouncing the balls really high and shooting 3s of the catch and hitting every one. Anyway great game Phoenix pulled it out and a small guard named Kevin Johnson turned it on. Did not know who he was at the time but we all know what happened there. Sorry got a little sidetracked...

Saw this on facebook today, he looks pretty good at Horse too.

 

[alfonse]

Saw this on facebook today, he looks pretty good at Horse too.

well played

 

[Dogdeacon]

I'm not sure how you think being injured 1 season makes his aggregate upward trajectory "factually incorrect". I swear some people on here are legitimately autistic.

I agree this is insane recency effect and revisionist history. Yes the West is still better at the top (now) and has unquestionably been the better conference 2012-15. But Miami was unquestionably the best team in the NBA during that run in the aggregate 2011-2014 since they made the finals each year & by far best record over that period. And when LeBron was on the Cavs 2006 - 2010 the conferences were relatively equal and the east stronger at the top with the Celtics, Pistons, Cavs, Heat & Magic i.e. the freakin' Nuggets made the 2009 Western conference finals.
To act like the eastern conference is some garbage can and it is not hard to make the NBA finals isn't a valid argument. Its actually the same crappy argument people were using this summer to dismiss the Warriors title b/c someone was injured on their opponents or they didn't play OKC or the Spurs. Nope turns out the Warriors are pretty good and so is whatever team LeBron James is on.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

I agree this is insane recency effect and revisionist history. Yes the West is still better at the top (now) and has unquestionably been the better conference 2012-15. But Miami was unquestionably the best team in the NBA during that run in the aggregate 2011-2014 since they made the finals each year & by far best record over that period. And when LeBron was on the Cavs 2006 - 2010 the conferences were relatively equal and the east stronger at the top with the Celtics, Pistons, Cavs, Heat & Magic i.e. the freakin' Nuggets made the 2009 Western conference finals.
To act like the eastern conference is some garbage can and it is not hard to make the NBA finals isn't a valid argument. Its actually the same crappy argument people were using this summer to dismiss the Warriors title b/c someone was injured on their opponents or they didn't play OKC or the Spurs. Nope turns out the Warriors are pretty good and so is whatever team LeBron James is on.

Well Cavs and Heat were both primarily good when Lebron was on those teams, and not many of these team's best seasons overlapped, ie Pistons were good in the early part of the window you listed, which wasn't when the Heat were good, and only shared 1 year where they and the Celts were both good. I get that you listed Orlando due to the finals appearance, but I don't think anyone views them getting that far as anything other than flukish circumstance. At best, you could say that any of Lebron's Miami teams would have to play a relatively tough conference finals opponent that wasn't thought of as actually being able to beat Lebron's team (Indiana), whereas in the West, it's almost a given you're playing 2 series against fellow title contenders just to make the finals. Just look at the Clips last year, the way the seedings fell, they would have needed to beat the defending champs and most consistently great team in the league, a very good Rox team with the #2 MVP, and a 67-win GSW that has the MVP and are proving this year are absolutely loaded--and beating all 3 of them was just to make the finals. When has Lebron ever faced anywhere near that kind of road through the playoffs?

 

[PcketknfNiels]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/73720/the-big-number-steph-curry-paint-by-numbers No they are being held to the same standards, the whole point of the thread is to compare them for what's going on right now. Are you really trying to say that Lebron is having a better season than Curry? I don't even see how that's arguable.

Shut 'em down.

 

[Dogdeacon]

The Magic team that lost in the finals was very good. Peak Dwight Howard, JJ Reddick, Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and then lots of very competent reserve types like Jameer Nelson, Tyron LUE!, Skip-to-my-Loo (Rafer), Martin Gortat, Michael Pietrus and Courtney Lee. They were in the semis the previous year and inexplicably blew the Eastern finals to Boston the next year (added Matt Barners, Brandon Bass, Vinsanity and Ryan Anderson while only losing Turkoglu, CLee and Tyron Lue).
And I'd augment my earlier point to say the Heat were the best team in the NBA over 4 years so they win 2 titles regardless of which conference they came from. And prior to that the east was a dogfight with all the teams I mentioned taking turns as beast of the east.

Unquestionably though the West has been a gauntlet the last 1-3 years. Even while the Warriors were fortunate with their draw, the Spurs and Clippers succumbed to a tough bracket. But I think last year is the ONLY year that LeBron has made a finals b/c the rest of the eastern conference was relatively weak. Even so, because the Cavs didn't even make the playoffs pre-LeBron and the Heat missed the playoffs post-LeBron (don't give me Bosh injury, they still should have made the playoffs), we have pretty dramatic proof that he is the best. If the conference and LeBron were garbage wouldn't those Cavs or Heat teams at least make the freakin' playoffs?! Heat dropped from 54-28 to 37-45, Cavs surged from 33-49 to 53-29.

 

[superjohn]

The Magic team that lost in the finals was very good. Peak Dwight Howard, JJ Reddick, Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and then lots of very competent reserve types like Jameer Nelson, Tyron LUE!, Skip-to-my-Loo (Rafer), Martin Gortat, Michael Pietrus and Courtney Lee. They were in the semis the previous year and inexplicably blew the Eastern finals to Boston the next year (added Matt Barners, Brandon Bass, Vinsanity and Ryan Anderson while only losing Turkoglu, CLee and Tyron Lue).
And I'd augment my earlier point to say the Heat were the best team in the NBA over 4 years so they win 2 titles regardless of which conference they came from. And prior to that the east was a dogfight with all the teams I mentioned taking turns as beast of the east.

Unquestionably though the West has been a gauntlet the last 1-3 years. Even while the Warriors were fortunate with their draw, the Spurs and Clippers succumbed to a tough bracket. But I think last year is the ONLY year that LeBron has made a finals b/c the rest of the eastern conference was relatively weak. Even so, because the Cavs didn't even make the playoffs pre-LeBron and the Heat missed the playoffs post-LeBron (don't give me Bosh injury, they still should have made the playoffs), we have pretty dramatic proof that he is the best. If the conference and LeBron were garbage wouldn't those Cavs or Heat teams at least make the freakin' playoffs?! Heat dropped from 54-28 to 37-45, Cavs surged from 33-49 to 53-29.

Dwyane Wade already won the Heat a championship before Lebron got there. Lebron left Miami, Bosh was out the whole season, Ray Allen retired, Wade was gimpy and they didn't make the playoffs, the Heat will make the playoffs this year. The Cavs brought in Lebron, Kevin Love, a couple other pieces and made a huge trade at the deadline bringing them Mozgov and Shumpert. Everyone knows Lebron is amazing but you don't have to go all revisionist history and leave a bunch of stuff out to make it look like he's taking teams to the finals by himself, he did it once 8 or 9 years ago in his first stint in Cleveland, his other finals teams have been loaded. You are really twisting yourself in a knot trying to explain how tough the East has been and saying the West has only been a gauntlet for the last 1-3 years. Sure the East has had some championship teams but the West has been far superior for well over a decade. In recent years the East has had some of it's worst years in NBA history, it's gotten so bad they have discussed reseeding the playoffs. This year is the first time where the East is showing they are catching up to the West but still Cleveland is the only team up there with the Warriors, Spurs, OKC and Clippers. I'm not even going to get started on you touting the Orlando Magic to show how good the East is, that's just silly.

 

[msgordon]

I swear some people on here are legitimately autistic.

.

You may want to google how the powerball works buddy. Do I need to link you to google, or can you find it on your own?

 

[auror]

Unquestionably though the West has been a gauntlet the last 1-3 years. Even while the Warriors were fortunate with their draw, the Spurs and Clippers succumbed to a tough bracket. But I think last year is the ONLY year that LeBron has made a finals b/c the rest of the eastern conference was relatively weak.

year_id| e_h2h | w_h2h |
+-------+-------+
| 2014 | 29.2% | 70.8% |
| 2013 | 41.8% | 58.2% |
| 2012 | 42.2% | 57.8% |
| 2011 | 42.0% | 58.0% |
| 2010 | 45.3% | 54.7% |
| 2009 | 51.3% | 48.7% |
| 2008 | 42.7% | 57.3% |
| 2007 | 42.9% | 57.1% |
| 2006 | 44.0% | 56.0% |
| 2005 | 43.1% | 56.9% |
| 2004 | 36.7% | 63.3% |
| 2003 | 40.5% | 59.5% |
| 2002 | 44.8% | 55.2% |
| 2001 | 38.3% | 61.7% |
| 2000 | 46.0% | 54.0% |

Last year was the worst, but it has ALWAYS been easier to win games in the East since 2000 (except 2009, when Lebron didn't make Finals).

 

[auror]

Unquestionably though the West has been a gauntlet the last 1-3 years. Even while the Warriors were fortunate with their draw, the Spurs and Clippers succumbed to a tough bracket. But I think last year is the ONLY year that LeBron has made a finals b/c the rest of the eastern conference was relatively weak.

# Teams That Won 55+ games

|Year| East | West|
|2015| 1 | 5 |
|2014| 1 | 3 |
|2013| 1 | 5 |
|2912| 2* | 2* | (lockout shortened season, 44/66 games used in place of 55/82)
|2011| 3 | 4 |
|2010| 2 | 2 |
|2009| 3 | 1 | (3 others in West at 54)
|2008| 2 | 3 |
|2007| 0 | 3 |
|2006| 1 | 2 |
|2005| 1 | 3 |
|2004| 1 | 4 |

 

[Dogdeacon]

Dwyane Wade already won the Heat a championship before Lebron got there. Lebron left Miami, Bosh was out the whole season, Ray Allen retired, Wade was gimpy and they didn't make the playoffs, the Heat will make the playoffs this year. The Cavs brought in Lebron, Kevin Love, a couple other pieces and made a huge trade at the deadline bringing them Mozgov and Shumpert. Everyone knows Lebron is amazing but you don't have to go all revisionist history and leave a bunch of stuff out to make it look like he's taking teams to the finals by himself, he did it once 8 or 9 years ago in his first stint in Cleveland, his other finals teams have been loaded. You are really twisting yourself in a knot trying to explain how tough the East has been and saying the West has only been a gauntlet for the last 1-3 years. Sure the East has had some championship teams but the West has been far superior for well over a decade. In recent years the East has had some of it's worst years in NBA history, it's gotten so bad they have discussed reseeding the playoffs. This year is the first time where the East is showing they are catching up to the West but still Cleveland is the only team up there with the Warriors, Spurs, OKC and Clippers. I'm not even going to get started on you touting the Orlando Magic to show how good the East is, that's just silly.

It is simpler than that but I was trying to give you some evidence. Here are my final points/opinions:
1. It is the NBA, the most competitive basketball league on the planet.
2. Every team sans Philly is trying to win yet somehow only LeBron's teams have consistently made the finals.
3. Yes West is better, no East isn't garbage - ask Stevens/Ainge or Tom Thibs or Hawks or Raptors or Wizards or Bucks etc...
4. Regular season Curry is the best player in the NBA right now
5. TBD if postseason Curry is better than post-season LeBron.
6. Maybe when they play together in Rio we'll get interesting evidence/opinions about who is the current alpha

 

[alfonse]

I watched the Davidson video of Curry making his big ncaa run here

At around 620 there is a clip of Lebron being amazed by a Curry move. Wonder if he imagined we would be where we are now. I have seen my destroyer and his name is Curry

BTW I prefer this thread to awkwardly discussing why our team could not score a basket in the last 6 minutes last night.

 

[alfonse]

I watched the Davidson video of Curry making his big ncaa run here

At around 620 there is a clip of Lebron being amazed by a Curry move. Wonder if he imagined we would be where we are now. I have seen my destroyer and his name is Curry

BTW I prefer this thread to awkwardly discussing why our team could not score a basket in the last 6 minutes last night.

not sure why but this thread keeps breaking my link there, its the youtube video, "The baby faced assasin

 

[methodology]

Steph is about to become the 1st player in NBA history to be part of the 180 club and lead the league in scoring.

The 180 club, for those unfamiliar, is all your shooting percentages (FG, 3pt, FT) added up. Usually its 50% FG, 40% 3pt, 90% FT

I am pretty sure Ray never had a season where he was in the 180 club

 

[KemBuckets21]

Steph is about to become the 1st player in NBA history to be part of the 180 club and lead the league in scoring.

The 180 club, for those unfamiliar, is all your shooting percentages (FG, 3pt, FT) added up. Usually its 50% FG, 40% 3pt, 90% FT

I am pretty sure Ray never had a season where he was in the 180 club

Correct. He never had a season at 50% fg

 

[TasteofUConn]

I'm curious to see where he takes it.

 

[selles]

Steph is about to become the 1st player in NBA history to be part of the 180 club and lead the league in scoring.

The 180 club, for those unfamiliar, is all your shooting percentages (FG, 3pt, FT) added up. Usually its 50% FG, 40% 3pt, 90% FT

I am pretty sure Ray never had a season where he was in the 180 club

It looks to me like Ray did it 3 times with the Celtics - 2008-09 (48/41/95), 2010-11 (49/44/88), and 2011-12 (46/45/92 - only 46 games that year though).

 

[methodology]

Have to shoot 50% from the field

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50–40–90_club

 

[auror]

It looks to me like Ray did it 3 times with the Celtics - 2008-09 (48/41/95), 2010-11 (49/44/88), and 2011-12 (46/45/92 - only 46 games that year though).

Most people refer to it as the 50-40-90 and not just 180, so you're right on the 180, but he never did 50-40-90.

 

[Matrim55]

I'm not going to open up the can of worms that is the Ray vs. Steph debate (because it is dumb - Steph stands alone), but I honestly think that if Ray came along today, with a better understanding of the 3-point shot and more complex offenses designed to open up the court for guys with lightning-quick catch-and-shoot ability, he'd be about 15% more valuable than he was. And he's already a top-50 player all-time.

Just imagine what he could do in a Stan Van Gundy-style offense, let alone something like Pop's or Kerr's.

 

[uconndoit]

Ray should be able to settle this for us.

 

[methodology]

Ray doesn't know what he's talking about. Ray is the greatest shooter ever because he holds the nba record. Curry will never be an equal of Jesus Shuttlesworth

 

[TheRealKBuks]

Ray doesn't know what he's talking about. Ray is the greatest shooter ever because he holds the nba record. Curry will never be an equal of Jesus Shuttlesworth

Can't tell if this is tongue in cheek, but in case its not...

You're right that they'll never be equal, but it's because Steph is the superior shooter. Thats not knocking on Ray even a little. Just take a second and appreciate the greatness in front of your eyes while you can. If you think Ray is still a superior shooter to Steph even after his absurd 400+ made 3pt shots this season, then your head is buried deep in the sand.

 

[jibsey]

There is another difference between them and that is Ray's 3 point shot is a jump shot with his feet quite elevated, so if someone asks who has the greatest 3 point jump shot it's Ray. Curry may be a better shooter overall though but much of the time it's a set shot with his feet on hardwood, and some of those he does get off the ground. I agree with those who say as long as it's behind the line and counts who cares? The creativeness of Curry to get those shots off is almost a separate category.

 

[auror]

There is another difference between them and that is Ray's 3 point shot is a jump shot with his feet quite elevated, so if someone asks who has the greatest 3 point jump shot it's Ray. Curry may be a better shooter overall though but much of the time it's a set shot with his feet on hardwood, and some of those he does get off the ground. I agree with those who say as long as it's behind the line and counts who cares? The creativeness of Curry to get those shots off is almost a separate category.

Let me know how many of these you see with his feet still on the ground . He doesn't get a ton of elevation, but he never shoots with his feet on the deck.

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

Done comparing Steph and Ray in terms of shooting its not a question anymore. We need to move on to comparing him to Klay Thompson I think he has a strong case for the 2nd best shooter of all time

 

[superjohn]

There is another difference between them and that is Ray's 3 point shot is a jump shot with his feet quite elevated, so if someone asks who has the greatest 3 point jump shot it's Ray. Curry may be a better shooter overall though but much of the time it's a set shot with his feet on hardwood, and some of those he does get off the ground. I agree with those who say as long as it's behind the line and counts who cares? The creativeness of Curry to get those shots off is almost a separate category.

Does the jibsey stand for jibberish? Curry is the best shooter ever and it's not even close. As was pointed out, you can compare Ray to Klay at this point.