OT: I was wrong about Steph Curry

[methodology]

To be fair, LeBron took a terrible team to the Finals in 2007...and promptly got massacred.

Last year's team had some great players, and if he willed the Love-less, Irving-less Cavs to a title that would have been the greatest Finals performance ever.

That 2007 Cavs team had no business getting as far as they did. The only reason they got where they did was Lebron and no one in the league could have taken that team that far other than LeBron.

Last year LeBron arguably had the MVP performance of the series. LeBron over the past couple seasons has learned to conserve his body and energy for when it counts. He is more or less on cruise control until the final month of hte season when he starts to go into beast mode.

With that said Curry is currently the best player in the league. What he is able to do on the court is breathtaking. Its never been done before. You literally have to guard Curry once he steps over half court.

 

[CallMeBruce]

I love LeBron. Love love love LeBron. Maybe my favorite NBA player ever. Love everything about his game, his approach, how he can poke fun at himself, etc. Curry is better than he is now. It's a bummer, because I thought LeBron would be the dominant player in the NBA until at least his mid-30s, and that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't think this affects LeBron's legacy, which is still as an all-timer, so much as it shows what an unbelievable generational talent Curry is.

 

[UconnBoston]

I don't think you can put Curry on say Boston or Wizards or HEAT and they'd definitely make the finals. Whereas LeBron has proven this is the case. And you'll never be able to prove me wrong b/c Golden State & Curry would be equally crazy to let him go
I think defense and versatility still put LeBron ahead by a hair, but they are the two best players in the NBA (& we can all differ on this just like we'd differ on #3 - Kobe) and Curry is ascending while LeBron is definitely on his back 9.

Pointing out that LeBron has taken multiple teams to the finals as a justification for his superiority this year proves my point, you are too swayed by perception based upon historical performance. All that matters in determining the best player in the NBA is where these two guys are now.

Curry would definitely make the Heat a finals contender and probably the Celtics too. The Celtics' point differential for the year is not that far behind the Cavs. Add Curry and they become the favorite in the East.

 

[Matrim55]

Prefacing this post with the fact that I'm actually a Dubs fan, and I do believe that Curry is in fact the best player in the league. But there are a couple of things that need to be debunked.

Steph Curry is absolutely the best player in the NBA right now. The difference between Steph Curry's PER and Lebron's PER is the same as between Lebron and Kenneth Faried.

PER is a very limited stat in that it only measures box-score contributions, and ignores stuff like picks, off-the-ball movement, positional gravity, close-outs, box-outs, etc. It also ignores who your teammates are, which is kinda important.

I know the quants at Toronto & Boston, and they laugh at the notion that PER is a useful metric.

Lebron is arguably the greatest player of all time and definitely top 5, but he his athleticism has slipped and he is not the same player he was 5 years ago, particularly on the defensive end. The advanced metrics actually favor Curry as a defender over Lebron.

This is really, really untrue. LeBron's DRPM (defensive real +/-) is +2.62, which is the second-best of any wing player in the league behind Kawhi, and 36th overall. Curry's is +1.29, which is 91st in the league and fourth among point guards.

DBPM is even more lopsided (defnsive box +/-), with LeBron at +2.3 and Curry at +0.1, placing LeBron in the league's top 20 (third best wing behind Kawhi and Danny Green) and Curry slightly above average. Defensive win shares is closer with LeBron at +2.4 and Curry at +2.3, but win shares is a pretty crappy stat.

I don't think any of these stats are perfect, and generally speaking Curry's been really good defensively this year while offensively he's reinventing the game.

That said, people have gotten so used to LeBron's greatness on both ends that we don't even appreciate it anymore -- and that's sad considering he's, at worst, the 3rd-best player of all time.

 

[tzznandrew]

That said, people have gotten so used to LeBron's greatness on both ends that we don't even appreciate it anymore -- and that's sad considering he's, at worst, the 3rd-best player of all time.

LeBron is still great.

What no one could have predicted, though, was how the Spurs adjustments in the late 00s changed the game. In realizing the value of the 3, they began to reshape what was valued in a player and open up space. You get a league already moving in the direction of spacing and shooting, and in steps the greatest shooter of all time.

He would be fantastic in any era, but the confluence of his shooting ability and the changing nature of the game has made him especially excellent. Defenses don't know what to do with Curry because there hasn't been anyone like him.

And that's a big difference between him and Jordan: Jordan is the greater player, but Jordan came out of a certain mold, a certain defined history of scoring 2 guards. Defenses knew what they should do, they just couldn't stop him.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Curry's shooting ability is bar none #1, but in 25 years when my son is on wikipedia looking up old NBA stats like I was when I was a teenager, he will see "Most all-time 3pt field goals: RAY ALLEN", thats all he will remember. Until Curry breaks Ray's record, that will hold true, and thats not taking anything away from Curry, he is absolutely incredible, but longevity is impressive in its own right. If Curry gets back to his injury prone state from a couple years ago, we could see Curry in a similar light to a guy like Pete Maravich in a few decades. I fully expect this comment to be controversial.

Even if that did all happen and Steph doesn't end up having the longevity for whatever reason, the volume shooting and efficiency he's producing right now is on an entirely different level than anything that's ever happened before.

 

[1999.2004.2011]

I know that Golden State just blew out San Antonio last night, but man I can't wait for the Western Conference Finals (assuming the Spurs get there)
Curry - Thompson - Barnes - Green - Bogut vs. Parker - Ginobli - Leonard - Aldridge - Duncan.....bruh

 

[Kitaman]

I have a group of friends who are starting to get annoyed with the incessant mouth guard chewing. It is a little silly, but it doesn't really bother me. Even my mouth guard hating friends recognize he's the best shooter they've ever seen. Except for one of them who's a Clippers fan. The Clippers fan claims JJ Reddick could do everything Curry can do if his team would just let him...laughable.

Many of the great athletes of today have a bad habit or two. Curry mouthpiece, Cam exuberance, Lebron and his whatever, etc..

I will say that its also great that that is about the only thing we can complain about with this group of 'new Greats'. In other words off the court/field there is nothing to complain about and if kids today need a role model there are a few to select from.

In my days you had reefer smoking, multi-women banging, practice missing, casino gambling, fist fighting, all night disco bumping role models. Oh and we fans didn't complain, go figure.

 

[MexicoHusky]

Many of the great athletes of today have a bad habit or two. Curry mouthpiece, Cam exuberance, Lebron and his whatever, etc..

I will say that its also great that that is about the only thing we can complain about with this group of 'new Greats'. In other words off the court/field there is nothing to complain about and if kids today need a role model there are a few to select from.

In my days you had reefer smoking, multi-women banging, practice missing, casino gambling, fist fighting, all night disco bumping role models. Oh and we fans didn't complain, go figure.

It is still your day

 

[Kitaman]

It is still your day

Yeah I should have mentioned that the internet wasn't around back then. So you could get away with a lot and claim everything to be a rumor. Word traveled much slower too so it was old news by the time the public got wind.

Cam was dabbin at the Club on Sunday night, nothing illegal, but social media captures everything:

 

[Matrim55]

What no one could have predicted, though, was how the Spurs adjustments in the late 00s changed the game. In realizing the value of the 3, they began to reshape what was valued in a player and open up space.

It's actually the Suns who deserve credit for that - Pop even says it's D'Antoni who changed the NBA.

And the whole thing makes me sad for Ray, because he was born 15 years too soon. If he was just entering his prime today he'd be 15% more valuable than he was (and he's both a surefire Hall of Famer and a top 7ish SG of all-time).

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Steph Curry is absolutely the best player in the NBA right now. The difference between Steph Curry's PER and Lebron's PER is the same as between Lebron and Kenneth Faried. Also, Steph's Estimated Wins Added is 33% higher and he has a true shooting percentage 100 points higher. He is also averaging more assists and fewer turnovers with a nearly identical usage rate, and putting up 45/50/90 while averaging over 30 points. Its not close offensively, and that is not accounting for the impact he has on opposing defenses without touching the ball.

Lebron is arguably the greatest player of all time and definitely top 5, but he his athleticism has slipped and he is not the same player he was 5 years ago, particularly on the defensive end. The advanced metrics actually favor Curry as a defender over Lebron. People's perceptions of his defensive ability are still lagging behid reality.

The credit Lebron gets as a defender has always been pretty overblown. He wasn't a good defender until about 2009, and even then he was way better as a help defender than as a lock down man defense type of guy. The only time I saw him take a man and play good defense was a pre injury Rose, but that was Lebron's prime vs a guy 6" shorter who couldn't shoot.

Swap Curry for LeBron on the Cavs and they are demonstrably worse. Put LeBron on the Warriors and they are different, but even devil's advocates could only argue minor dropoff or they could actually get better via defensive upgrade.

But no question Curry is the MVP last season and this season. And Curry is a better offensive player than LeBron over the past two regular seasons. Remember though Igoudola was finals MVP and LeBron was more valuable in the finals.

FINALS STATS (Curry shot 4.5% better = 1 more make per 22 shots & had more steals, otherwise LeBron)
Player: PTS, FG%, REB, ASSISTS, Steals, TO
Curry: 156, 44.3%, 31, 38, 11, 28
LeBron: 215, 39.8%, 80, 53, 8, 21

Lebron's usage rate in the finals was off the charts and his efficiency sucked. He basically turned into Iverson.

I HATE the mouth guard chewing. I think he is just trying to look cute. Also he is very pompous but he kind of has the right to be, still don't like it. Draymond annoys me alot more though. He acts like every shot he hits was the best shot ever, gets in peoples faces for no reason and is just an annoyance. Don't get me wrong, great player, I do think his stats are inflated a good amount due to the system, but the Warriors as a whole just kind of irk me

One of the main reasons Draymond is good is because he has that chip on his shoulder after being overlooked as a draft prospect. He's demonstrative, but he does a lot of the dirty work for his team and doesn't play like a thug or seem like a troublemaker off the court.

Players that play different positions fit differently with different teams - I guess its not stupid to point that out but it doesn't effect the debate on who is better. Nevertheless, LeBron has literally proven that whatever team he is on, Cavs, Heat, Cavs again will make the finals. Add LeBron to a team and its a championship contender, we simply don't have that evidence with Curry.

Also that's why I put the finals stats in, I think more relevant to the debate, but I suppose next someone will point out that Curry and LeBron each played with different teammates against different defenses.

Lebron has also played in a weak as hell eastern conference, and nobody can deny that those Heat teams and this current Cavs team are pretty loaded relative to what else is going on in the conference.

 

[aceboon]

It's actually the Suns who deserve credit for that - Pop even says it's D'Antoni who changed the NBA.

And the whole thing makes me sad for Ray, because he was born 15 years too soon. If he was just entering his prime today he'd be 15% more valuable than he was (and he's both a surefire Hall of Famer and a top 7ish SG of all-time).

Yup, it was after the Suns swept the Spurs with Gentry still using D'Antoni's offensive system that made Pop revamp the Spurs style of play.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Pointing out that LeBron has taken multiple teams to the finals as a justification for his superiority this year proves my point, you are too swayed by perception based upon historical performance. All that matters in determining the best player in the NBA is where these two guys are now.

Curry would definitely make the Heat a finals contender and probably the Celtics too. The Celtics' point differential for the year is not that far behind the Cavs. Add Curry and they become the favorite in the East.

So I assume you admit that LeBron was the consensus best player at least until some moment over the last 1.5 seasons now that we've established taking multiple teams to the finals is what the best player can do.
However it is still really, really close, it is still subjective and can't be proven even though I can prove LeBron takes multiple teams to the finals and you can never do the same with Curry. Who was better IN the NBA finals last year?
Incidentally I think Curry is having a better regular season than LeBron and will continue to do so and likely win another MVP that he will deserve just like he deserved last years. I think LeBron will take some time off and find another playoff gear like he has in the past. If he doesn't then I will transfer the hypothetical crown. If LeBron and Cavs win the championship then well.....

 

[KingOPancakes]

The credit Lebron gets as a defender has always been pretty overblown. He wasn't a good defender until about 2009, and even then he was way better as a help defender than as a lock down man defense type of guy. The only time I saw him take a man and play good defense was a pre injury Rose, but that was Lebron's prime vs a guy 6" shorter who couldn't shoot.



Lebron's usage rate in the finals was off the charts and his efficiency sucked. He basically turned into Iverson.



One of the main reasons Draymond is good is because he has that chip on his shoulder after being overlooked as a draft prospect. He's demonstrative, but he does a lot of the dirty work for his team and doesn't play like a thug or seem like a troublemaker off the court.



Lebron has also played in a weak as hell eastern conference, and nobody can deny that those Heat teams and this current Cavs team are pretty loaded relative to what else is going on in the conference.

While I don't really disagree with anything you said here, you'll always be the guy that still staunchly believes the powerball lump sum number already factors in taxes, even when presented with mountains of evidence to the contrary. So....

 

[tzznandrew]

It's actually the Suns who deserve credit for that - Pop even says it's D'Antoni who changed the NBA.

And the whole thing makes me sad for Ray, because he was born 15 years too soon. If he was just entering his prime today he'd be 15% more valuable than he was (and he's both a surefire Hall of Famer and a top 7ish SG of all-time).

Sure, the innovations were D'Antoni's, but the league didn't start to follow, really, until the Spurs starting winning with it. 7 seconds or less was a gimmick, and then suddenly wasn't.

D'Antonio's the innovator, Pop's the activator. Sort of a Jesus/Constantine thing.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

While I don't really disagree with anything you said here, you'll always be the guy that still staunchly believes the powerball lump sum number already factors in taxes, even when presented with mountains of evidence to the contrary. So....

I was never proven wrong, so...

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I love LeBron. Love love love LeBron. Maybe my favorite NBA player ever. Love everything about his game, his approach, how he can poke fun at himself, etc. Curry is better than he is now. It's a bummer, because I thought LeBron would be the dominant player in the NBA until at least his mid-30s, and that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't think this affects LeBron's legacy, which is still as an all-timer, so much as it shows what an unbelievable generational talent Curry is.

Yeah Curry has easily been the best player this year. Another point to think about is LeBron was pretty much a star in the league as an 18 year old, it took Curry a few years til he was about 25 to be at All Star level.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Sure, put Lebron on any team in the past 6 years in the terrible East and they're a Finals contender. I think the same would be true for last and this year's version of Curry.

I think this is off base.
Curry has a great supporting cast, with several guys who are going to have excellent careers, and played last season with a guy coming off the bench who would have started on every other team in the league. LeBron took a Cavs team to the finals that had 9 guys on it that aren't on the top 500 players of all time list and that few people outside of Cleveland could name. Absolutely NO WAY Curry could carry a team of Bums like LeBron has. Last year, for instance, LeBron managed to win 2 games in the finals against Curry's team. With Delavedova starting and guarding Curry!!!!! I mean, COME ON MAN!

It just occurred to me that I don't like Curry for the same reason I don't like Peyton Manning, which is to say that they're both great, but too many people argue that they're greater than they are.

 

[7774]

I was never proven wrong, so...

You think the lump sum already takes taxes into account? That explains so much about your basketball related posts.

 

[superjohn]

I think this is off base.
Curry has a great supporting cast, with several guys who are going to have excellent careers, and played last season with a guy coming off the bench who would have started on every other team in the league. LeBron took a Cavs team to the finals that had 9 guys on it that aren't on the top 500 players of all time list and that few people outside of Cleveland could name. Absolutely NO WAY Curry could carry a team of Bums like LeBron has. Last year, for instance, LeBron managed to win 2 games in the finals against Curry's team. With Delavedova starting and guarding Curry!!!!! I mean, COME ON MAN!

It just occurred to me that I don't like Curry for the same reason I don't like Peyton Manning, which is to say that they're both great, but too many people argue that they're greater than they are.

That's a long time ago that Lebron took the cast of nobodies to the finals where they got destroyed. The poster said in the last 6 years Lebron could take anyone on the garbage East to the finals, it just so happened he took hand picked teams that were loaded with talent. As for Curry's great supporting cast of guys that will have excellent careers, just who are you talking about? You argued vehemently last year that Draymond Green is overrated and only does well because of the system he plays in. Iguadola's career was looking like it was close to over before he came to Oakland. He's a nice Jack of all trades player but he's nearing the end and only averaged 7 ppg last year and this year. Klay Thompson is the second best shooter in the league but what is all the other great talent that will have excellent careers? Take Curry off this team and they would struggle mightily. I get that you don't like Curry and he keeps proving you wrong but the reality is the reality, dude is dominating the league.

 

[superjohn]

I was never proven wrong, so...

Is this serious?

 

[jleves]

Is this serious?

He is serious even after being presented several links and quotes - here you go.

It's worth reading most of the 4th page.

 

[superjohn]

He is serious even after being presented several links and quotes - here you go.

It's worth reading most of the 4th page.

It's kind of shocking he knows how to use a computer.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I still have Lebron as the best player in the NBA but if Curry wins another NBA Finals this year I sure have to think about it.

Curry didn't win an NBA championship ,the Warriors did,he has a great cast around him.
Put Curry on last year's Cleveland team without Lebron,and how far would he have carried them. Certainly not into the finals.