OT: 2017-2018 NBA Season Thread

[Matrim55]

This would be an immediate ejection and a month suspension. "Ambient physicality" is a term that really doesn't mean much. I get what you're going for, but I just don't agree.

I don't disagree with the first part – as I said, hard fouls tended to be harder back then. As for the second part, look at the highlights from MJ's 63-point game:



So many clean catches off screens, so many uncontested looks, and just about any time he went into the lane it was whistled. There was low ambient, per-possession physicality in the league until the mid-90s, save for 1v1 post battles.

LeBron got hit more last night in a random November game than Jordan did in that playoff game 30 years ago:

To your points: I'm not discounting anything. I get the differences in the game. You seem to think they'd all be in favor of LeBron; I think they'd be roughly even. You couldn't zone or double Jordan; you couldn't be nearly as physical with LeBron.

You couldn't hammer him the way the Pistons hammered him. You could, for sure, take away at least part of his mid-range genius with the type of defenses we see today.

Jordan would still be great, mind you. He'd get to the line a ton and would be super-efficient. But the new defensive rules are designed to limit the value of the type of mid-range stuff that he was so great at.

Your position about getting out of the playoffs is also absurd because it neglects that the 1980s East was awesome and the 2000s East was garbage.

So we just dismiss the Wizards years? And your point about "full season" is garbage as well. Everything about Jordan comes with these unspoken caveats that people are just supposed to accept because of the personality cult built around the guy.

Bottom line: The Bulls without MJ were a 55-win team.

[Edit] Anyway, we disagree. This probably isn't the space for such a debate though.

For sure. You're one of the best to have a discussion with on this forum, and I enjoy this back-and-forth even if it seems we're destined to disagree.

And for the dumdum Skip Bayless-wannabes who blow off LeBron's clutchness, here you go:

LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan Is a Real Conversation Now, So Let’s Have It

relevant block:

He’s actually hit more go-ahead shots in the final 10 seconds of playoff games on fewer attempts than Jordan. FiveThirtyEight found that James has been the most clutch postseason shooter in its data set, although that dates back to only 2000.

James has been an absolute menace in Game 7s, winning all four he’s played since 2008: He had 37 to win the 2013 Finals and a 27-point triple-double last year to complete Cleveland’s epic comeback against the Warriors. (A reminder: He became the first player to lead the NBA Finals in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals while playing on the first team to rally back from a 3–1 deficit in the NBA Finals, and he did it against the first team ever to win 73 games in a season.) Jordan never played in a Game 7 in the Finals — because he was so clutch that he didn’t even need to be clutch, I guess — but his 2–1 record in non-Finals Game 7s is identical in percentage to LeBron’s 4–2 record.

Clutch sample sizes are extremely inconclusive, but in big moments, LeBron tends to do really well. As well as Jordan? Tough to say. I think we should just agree: Both are extremely good at basketball.

EDIT: I really should include the end of that column, which is great:

After all, we need to save our energy. Every second we spend debating LeBron vs. Jordan is a second we should be focusing on humiliating the people who think Kobe Bryant belongs in this conversation.

 

[nomar]

Facts. Counselor.

Wow, VORP.

Here is a fact: every coach and executive in the NBA would disagree with you. Eric Bledoe's mom and you are the other two people on earth that think Bledsoe is close to Kyrie.

 

[the Q]

Wow, VORP.

Here is a fact: every coach and executive in the NBA would disagree with you. Eric Bledoe's mom and you are the other two people on earth that think Bledsoe is close to Kyrie.

Objection. Brother counsel is testifying with zero evidence to support his assertion.

 

[tzznandrew]

I don't disagree with the first part – as I said, hard fouls tended to be harder back then. As for the second part, look at the highlights from MJ's 63-point game:



So many clean catches off screens, so many uncontested looks, and just about any time he went into the lane it was whistled. There was low ambient, per-possession physicality in the league until the mid-90s, save for 1v1 post battles.

LeBron got hit more last night in a random November game than Jordan did in that playoff game 30 years ago:




You couldn't hammer him the way the Pistons hammered him. You could, for sure, take away at least part of his mid-range genius with the type of defenses we see today.

Jordan would still be great, mind you. He'd get to the line a ton and would be super-efficient. But the new defensive rules are designed to limit the value of the type of mid-range stuff that he was so great at.


So we just dismiss the Wizards years? And your point about "full season" is garbage as well. Everything about Jordan comes with these unspoken caveats that people are just supposed to accept because of the personality cult built around the guy.

Bottom line: The Bulls without MJ were a 55-win team.


For sure. You're one of the best to have a discussion with on this forum, and I enjoy this back-and-forth even if it seems we're destined to disagree.

And for the dumdum Skip Bayless-wannabes who blow off LeBron's clutchness, here you go:

LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan Is a Real Conversation Now, So Let’s Have It

relevant block:

He’s actually hit more go-ahead shots in the final 10 seconds of playoff games on fewer attempts than Jordan. FiveThirtyEight found that James has been the most clutch postseason shooter in its data set, although that dates back to only 2000.

James has been an absolute menace in Game 7s, winning all four he’s played since 2008: He had 37 to win the 2013 Finals and a 27-point triple-double last year to complete Cleveland’s epic comeback against the Warriors. (A reminder: He became the first player to lead the NBA Finals in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals while playing on the first team to rally back from a 3–1 deficit in the NBA Finals, and he did it against the first team ever to win 73 games in a season.) Jordan never played in a Game 7 in the Finals — because he was so clutch that he didn’t even need to be clutch, I guess — but his 2–1 record in non-Finals Game 7s is identical in percentage to LeBron’s 4–2 record.

Clutch sample sizes are extremely inconclusive, but in big moments, LeBron tends to do really well. As well as Jordan? Tough to say. I think we should just agree: Both are extremely good at basketball.

EDIT: I really should include the end of that column, which is great:

After all, we need to save our energy. Every second we spend debating LeBron vs. Jordan is a second we should be focusing on humiliating the people who think Kobe Bryant belongs in this conversation.

The last part is 1000%. Let's save this conversation though for another thread where it would be more relevant.

 

[Walker11]

He says the same thing about you

Great player and all but Reggie is consistently the least informed person calling big games.

There isn’t another coach in the league who would have this team 7-2. Not. One.

Maybe, but I am not ready to put him up with Pop. Pop has been maximizing his talent for 20 years now and seems to exceed expectations every single year. Stevens is doing the same in the regular season but the track record is 1/10th as long.

That said, hot take alert, Stevens might be a considerably better coach than Kerr. We have no way to know how great Kerr is. I know he improved on Jackson (a terrible coach) and maximized Green but he has only coached 3 of the most talented teams ever, and we saw what Walton and Brown have done in his absences.

 

[the Q]

Great player and all but Reggie is consistently the least informed person calling big games.



Maybe, but I am not ready to put him up with Pop. Pop has been maximizing his talent for 20 years now and seems to exceed expectations every single year. Stevens is doing the same in the regular season but the track record is 1/10th as long.

That said, hot take alert, Stevens might be a considerably better coach than Kerr. We have no way to know how great Kerr is. I know he improved on Jackson (a terrible coach) and maximized Green but he has only coached 3 of the most talented teams ever, and we saw what Walton and Brown have done in his absences.

I wanna see a bigger sample of pop without Duncan.

 

[BUConn10]

Anyone that thinks, mentions, tries to argue, or even says a series of words that even come close to making the case that "Eric Bledsoe is better than Kyrie Irving", should immediately have their membership to this board revoked and be sent to a mental institution.

 

[Jerry1714]

Objection. Brother counsel is testifying with zero evidence to support his assertion.

The guy who says "Do not mess me with me when it comes to draft" now wants to pretend to be a lawyer (really poorly). Being 12 must be fun.

 

[Walker11]

I wanna see a bigger sample of pop without Duncan.

Ok. Crazy, but ok. It's not like Tim was in his prime for his entire career.

 

[nomar]

Objection. Brother counsel is testifying with zero evidence to support his assertion.

Your hot take sucks. Sorry.

I mean, the numbers don't even back you up. But the eye test plus everything else -- age, size, historical performance in the clutch -- goes against you.

Bledsoe is being sold in a fire sale and Kyrie is looking like a magician. Bledsoe's a very nice player but who has put up good stats on not good teams. But they're not in the same stratosphere in terms of value.

But you be you with your sizzling hot take, Skip Bayless of the Boneyard.

 

[MSGSeven]

Great player and all but Reggie is consistently the least informed person calling big games.

He's a HOF'er I'll take his opinion on anything bball related over anyone on this board

 

[superjohn]

This board is really strange. Don't want to read through the whole thread, is someone really trying to argue that Eric Bledsoe is better than Kyrie Irving?

 

[Jerry1714]

Your hot take sucks. Sorry.

I mean, the numbers don't even back you up. But the eye test plus everything else -- age, size, historical performance in the clutch -- goes against you.

Bledsoe is being sold in a fire sale and Kyrie is looking like a magician. Bledsoe's a very nice player but who has put up good stats on not good teams. But they're not in the same stratosphere in terms of value.

But you be you with your sizzling hot take, Skip Bayless of the Boneyard.

Suns were 0-3 with Bledsoe, then 4-2 since they told him to leave and not come back.

 

[Walker11]

He's a HOF'er I'll take his opinion on anything bball related over anyone on this board

Very bad logic. Apply it to other things in life and see how it holds.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I think LeBron an MJ is a sure fire honest debate at this point. Yes the championships outweight pretty much anything, but the numbers LeBron had put up have to have some sort of disagreement in this discussion. LeBron, just like MJ, has done what people have only dreamed of doing. If Lebron gets at least 4 championships, he is the best player ever in my opinion.

 

[nomar]

Very bad logic. Apply it to other things in life and see how it holds.

Or we could keep it in the sports context and recognize the hundreds of star athletes who have been terrible coaches and executives.

Isiah Thomas is a HOFer. He knows everything about basketball. Let's get him to run our franchise!

Billy King could take me 1-on-1 but I think if the Nets had a time machine and a choice of following my opinions or his, they'd pick mine.

 

[MSGSeven]

Very bad logic. Apply it to other things in life and see how it holds.

Ok bro we'll keep it simple then I'll take his opinion on who the better players are over anyone on this board especially considering he actually played against them

 

[nomar]

This board is really strange. Don't want to read through the whole thread, is someone really trying to argue that Eric Bledsoe is better than Kyrie Irving?

No, his premise is that the Celtics overpaid for Kyrie, and his proof is that some team will get a similar player in Bledsoe for peanuts.

 

[Matrim55]

16/19/4/3/1 line from Drummond, just another night for the big guy.

We're gonna have two All-Stars this year, and quite possibly 4 guys with 20+ PERs (PER is a garbage stat, but still).

, look at this 10-0 start to the game that he got Detroit off to:



That's a LeBron-type pass on the opening bucket, two steals, and a quick post-and-finish in semi-transition.

This is the Drummond we all hoped & dreamed would appear at some point. Well... he's here!!!!

 

[intlzncster]

EDIT: I really should include the end of that column, which is great:

After all, we need to save our energy. Every second we spend debating LeBron vs. Jordan is a second we should be focusing on humiliating the people who think Kobe Bryant belongs in this conversation.

I'd pick MJ myself, but a Like for the last paragraph.

I would also pick Kyrie over Bledsoe lol

 

[intlzncster]

16/19/4/3/1 line from Drummond, just another night for the big guy.

We're gonna have two All-Stars this year, and quite possibly 4 guys with 20+ PERs (PER is a garbage stat, but still).

, look at this 10-0 start to the game that he got Detroit off to:



That's a LeBron-type pass on the opening bucket, two steals, and a quick post-and-finish in semi-transition.

This is the Drummond we all hoped & dreamed would appear at some point. Well... he's here!!!!

Don't jinx it Matrim.

 

[Matrim55]

Don't jinx it Matrim.

One more for you: As of now his total rebound rate of 23.7 is best in NBA history, higher than Rodman's 23.44. For the season his rate is 25.8. A season-long rate of 26 or better has been hit only four times – three by Rodman (including his ridiculous 29.73 in 1994/95) and once by Reggie Evans.

I'm giddy. It looks like the offseason surgery to improve his breathing and the simplified free throw stroke have been game-changers for him.

 

[Bezzz]

Not exactly NBA but Rodney Purvis dropped 20 pts. in his first game with the Lakeland Magic of the G-League. They play again tonight on ESPNU.
Box score with Rodney highlight video.

 

[Huskies4ever]

What a start for Porzingis! Love watching him play. He's a 7'3" shooting guard for crying' out loud! How do you guard that (rhetorical question)?

 

[intlzncster]

What a start for Porzingis! Love watching him play. He's a 7'3" shooting guard for crying' out loud! How do you guard that (rhetorical question)?

Same way you guard Durant. You can't.

 

[Jerry1714]

Kyrie and Tatum are really good. That is all

 

[aceboon]

Porzingis is ridiculous

 

[aceboon]

Nice pass from Lamb

 

[superjohn]

Porzingis is ridiculous

Most people don't know yet how special he is. If he stays healthy he will become the best player in the league and an all-timer.

 

[intlzncster]

Most people don't know yet how special he is. If he stays healthy he will become the best player in the league and an all-timer.

I don't know if this is true, but there's some pretty amazing young talent in the league right now. From Giannis, to KP, to Embiid, to Simmonds, etc etc. Embiid and Simmons could be something else if they stay healthy too.