New PAC-12 Forming | Page 34 | The Boneyard

New PAC-12 Forming

upstater said:
Fraud credentials. a lot of the for-profits are charging students for no-show credentials. They've been accused of racketeering.

How does that differ from a regular university? Well, it's illegal. There are all sorts of reporting/assessments in place to prevent this from happening. Unless you don't care and you're flouting the law.

Even worse, the entry of these corporate crook universities into the space has forced accreditors into the position of requiring these assessments from all universities and thereby wasting everyone's time on stuff that was never a problem before.

These are just unscrupulous actors making tens of millions off the Higher Education space.
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GCU is not the same as DeVry just because they're for profit. Yes, what you have listed has happened in the past.

I get that you're in higher ed but since you are in higher ed you know that every case must be evaluating each case individually.

You did not answer my question. You did not differentiate that from a traditional university. Maybe the problem you stated is ill-posed?

Reality is the knives have been long drawn for GCU and if it were the case they would have been stabbed by now.
 
Patman said:
GCU is not the same as DeVry just because they're for profit. Yes, what you have listed has happened in the past.

I get that you're in higher ed but since you are in higher ed you know that every case must be evaluating each case individually.

You did not answer my question. You did not differentiate that from a traditional university. Maybe the problem you stated is ill-posed?

Reality is the knives have been long drawn for GCU and if it were the case they would have been stabbed by now.
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Not sure what you're asking.

They have had multiple federal cases against them.

I didn't differentiate what from a traditional university? I mentioned they got in trouble with credentials.
 
NoSpamHere said:
Many of these “non-profit” Universities (that means you, Ivy League, etc…) have 10 figure endowment funds, which really makes them hedge funds with an education division as opposed to their original purpose.
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reality is the system protects them. I'm not a fan of Grand Canyon but if they were truly a bad place they would have grounded into dust by now. Especially because of their size and prominence
 
NoSpamHere said:
Many of these “non-profit” Universities (that means you, Ivy League, etc…) have 10 figure endowment funds, which really makes them hedge funds with an education division as opposed to their original purpose.
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I'm not sure why you guys aren't understanding what I'm saying.

There's a huge difference between a school that uses its endowment to subsidize education for students (i.e. defray the cost of education) and a school who has been accused of defrauding students by not giving them what they're paying for.

These are on the polar opposite sides of the spectrum.

They are the exact opposite of each other.

One is extracting money from customers and not providing services, the other is subsidizing customers and providing services,.
 
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I don't care about issues at Grand Canyon U. With 100k students, that's an awful lot of diplomas being handed out so I'd have to think GCU is correcting issues it has. Too many students to just say your diploma is worthless. UNC was fraudulent with fake classes but it gets a pass. I read ASU wouldn't play GCU in athletics but changed course in 2020. If anything, GCU seems to be growing quickly. Take a peek at Googlemaps and you see block after block of brand-new buildings right there in the northwest corner of Pheonix.
 
NoSpamHere said:
Many of these “non-profit” Universities (that means you, Ivy League, etc…) have 10 figure endowment funds, which really makes them hedge funds with an education division as opposed to their original purpose.
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and 11 figure and that's a great take on what they do. Harvard has $50,000,000,000, Yale $42,000,000,000. They could provide free tuition to all students just using interest earned or capital gains on endowment while pumping out future millionaires to keep funding the endowment. Lots of hedgefund managers sucking on those Ivy teets.
 
Kolumbo said:
and 11 figure and that's a great take on what they do. Harvard has $50,000,000,000, Yale $42,000,000,000. They could provide free tuition to all students just using interest earned or capital gains on endowment while pumping out future millionaires to keep funding the endowment. Lots of hedgefund managers sucking on those Ivy teets.
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??

They do!

Anyone making under $150k doesn't pay, and then after that, the tuition charges are gradual.
 
upstater said:
I'm not sure why you guys aren't understanding what I'm saying.

There's a huge difference between a school that uses its endowment to subsidize education for students (i.e. defray the cost of education) and a school who has been accused of defrauding students by not giving them what they're paying for.

These are on the polar opposite sides of the spectrum.

They are the exact opposite of each other.

One is extracting money from customers and not providing services, the other is subsidizing customers and providing services,.
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Don’t disagree. I just happened to hook on the idea that non-profit and for-profit aren‘t relevant to the concept of fraud.
 
NoSpamHere said:
Don’t disagree. I just happened to hook on the idea that non-profit and for-profit aren‘t relevant to the concept of fraud.
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The fraud cases skyrocketed with the for-profits. Corinthian, Trump, Grand Canyon, several others.
 
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upstater said:
The fraud cases skyrocketed with the for-profits. Corinthian, Trump, Grand Canyon, several others.
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The for-profit ones are "illegal" fraud. The non-profit, endowment-driven schools are the "legal" frauds ;)
 
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upstater said:
The fraud cases skyrocketed with the for-profits. Corinthian, Trump, Grand Canyon, several others.
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One of these things are not like the others... one of these things just doesn't belong
 
GC got fined $37,000,00 under appeal for understating the cost a Doctoral degree to
7500 candidates , by the Department of Education
It ending up costing $10K more for the majority of students .
In my experience that understating the cost is pretty universal
especially in public’s where the 5 year plan is an inside joke
So why did the DOE single out GC the largest Christian University in the country?
Could it possible be retribution for them suing the DOE for their refusal to return them to non profit status? I don’t know but it’s a remarkable coincidence
 
AZHuskiePop said:
GC got fined $37,000,00 under appeal for understating the cost a Doctoral degree to
7500 candidates , by the Department of Education
It ending up costing $10K more for the majority of students .
In my experience that understating the cost is pretty universal
especially in public’s where the 5 year plan is an inside joke
So why did the DOE single out GC the largest Christian University in the country?
Could it possible be retribution for them suing the DOE for their refusal to return them to non profit status? I don’t know but it’s a remarkable coincidence
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www.highereddive.com

Grand Canyon Education accused of racketeering scheme in new class action

Plaintiffs say that “artificial bottlenecks” in doctoral programs at Grand Canyon University, the company’s biggest client, led to higher costs than advertised.
www.highereddive.com www.highereddive.com

PhDs are fully funded at the nation's non-profit universities. Creating bottlenecks is the opposite of what they do because such bottlenecks cost money. Schools are incentivized to push people through as quickly as possible because these educations are subsidized. It's the opposite of what's being described above.
 
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upstater said:
Are we supposed to be against endowments at non-profits?
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I’d sayitdepends on how the endowments are used. If the tax-free status conferred on them implies behavior for the public good then that’s how the money should be used. An 11 figure endowment says, to me, that’s not the case. Those schools could bailutely grow their admissions greatly without any real impact to their endowment yet they choose to grow the endowment instead.
 
Fishy said:
If you think all non-profits are acting like non-profits, I don’t know what to tell you.

They’re every bit as predatory.
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Giving money to subsidize students is predatory. Amazing the things we learn here.
 
NoSpamHere said:
I’d sayitdepends on how the endowments are used. If the tax-free status conferred on them implies behavior for the public good then that’s how the money should be used. An 11 figure endowment says, to me, that’s not the case. Those schools could bailutely grow their admissions greatly without any real impact to their endowment yet they choose to grow the endowment instead.
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Have you looked at their budget? It's $6B a year. Students w/ parents who make up to $150k don't pay. Then it graduates slowly.

They have a $50B endowment, they take 5.5% from it every year. This means around $2.6B every year.

So they need another $3.4B in revenue, which they get through the 40% of kids who pay, or research grants.

If you're burning through your endowment at the rate of return, you'll eventually find yourself without an endowment.
 
NoSpamHere said:
I’d sayitdepends on how the endowments are used. If the tax-free status conferred on them implies behavior for the public good then that’s how the money should be used. An 11 figure endowment says, to me, that’s not the case. Those schools could bailutely grow their admissions greatly without any real impact to their endowment yet they choose to grow the endowment instead.
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The Ivies give a lot back to their students. And the endowment is meant to last forever. Also, endowments are actually made up of thousands of individual endowments with mandates, so they can't just spend the money any way they want.

I do think there's something to be said about rich people donating their money elsewhere to do more good. UConn needs my money. But if I was a Harvard alum, I'd give my money elsewhere. I also think it might be time to tax the gains on endowments that are over a certain amount or have a draw down under a certain amount.
 
upstater said:
www.highereddive.com

Grand Canyon Education accused of racketeering scheme in new class action

Plaintiffs say that “artificial bottlenecks” in doctoral programs at Grand Canyon University, the company’s biggest client, led to higher costs than advertised.
www.highereddive.com www.highereddive.com

PhDs are fully funded at the nation's non-profit universities. Creating bottlenecks is the opposite of what they do because such bottlenecks cost money. Schools are incentivized to push people through as quickly as possible because these educations are subsidized. It's the opposite of what's being described above.
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Ehhh, kinda but not always. My PhD at UConn was funded by myself and reimbursed by my company at UConn; I wasn't an outlier in this respect as there were others in my situation. Also, we had attrition where a decent number of students didn't get their doctorates for one reason or another, so more like pushed out rather than pushed through. ^_^
 
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KryHavok said:
Ehhh, kinda but not always. My PhD at UConn was funded by myself and reimbursed by my company at UConn; I wasn't an outlier in this respect as there were others in my situation. Also, we had attrition where a decent number of students didn't get their doctorates for one reason or another, so more like pushed out rather than pushed through. ^_^
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What field were you in?
 
upstater said:
www.highereddive.com

Grand Canyon Education accused of racketeering scheme in new class action

Plaintiffs say that “artificial bottlenecks” in doctoral programs at Grand Canyon University, the company’s biggest client, led to higher costs than advertised.
www.highereddive.com www.highereddive.com

PhDs are fully funded at the nation's non-profit universities. Creating bottlenecks is the opposite of what they do because such bottlenecks cost money. Schools are incentivized to push people through as quickly as possible because these educations are subsidized. It's the opposite of what's being described above.
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I’ve read multiple articles on the case which is under appeal and depending on which side you hear the story from it changes
However in this day and age if your quoted $40K and it cost $50k thst doesn’t sound that unusual to warrant a *$37,000,000 fine
against a school that’s suing you for sitting on their application for non profit status
I only know a few things about the school
It has a very nice campus in the West Side of Phoenix
They have the best Nursing school and PA program in the Phoenix area , better than ASU . I’m not sure if U of A has a nursing school
They go an incredible job of promotion their basketball team.
To be honest I’ve never seen one promotional ad for an ASU athletic team

* The largest fine ever accessed against a school
 
NoSpamHere said:
Don’t disagree. I just happened to hook on the idea that non-profit and for-profit aren‘t relevant to the concept of fraud.
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Not definitive, but absolutely relevant. There are many human beings willing to commit fraud when they get to keep the money. It is a far smaller percentage of human beings who are willing to commit fraud, and risk the consequences, so that someone else -- a non-profit institution or otherwise - can keep the proceeds.
 
businesslawyer said:
Not definitive, but absolutely relevant. There are many human beings willing to commit fraud when they get to keep the money. It is a far smaller percentage of human beings who are willing to commit fraud, and risk the consequences, so that someone else -- a non-profit institution or otherwise - can keep the proceeds.
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Lol c'mon Biz, are you seriously asserting that there is no risk of personal enrichment inside of a not for profit? Google private inurement.
 
upstater said:
What field were you in?
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I will only say somewhere in STEM.

While we're on the topic of for-profit vs. non-profit, one of my colleagues tried to earn a doctorate through the for-profit Phoenix University. Unfortunately, the degree was not recognized and could not be used for professional qualification. Sometimes you get what you pay fore, and sometimes you get nothing despite what you paid (felt bad for the person as I was always treated respectfully and got along well).
 
KryHavok said:
I will only say somewhere in STEM.

While we're on the topic of for-profit vs. non-profit, one of my colleagues tried to earn a doctorate through the for-profit Phoenix University. Unfortunately, the degree was not recognized and could not be used for professional qualification. Sometimes you get what you pay fore, and sometimes you get nothing despite what you paid (felt bad for the person as I was always treated respectfully and got along well).
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We're far off topic here and there's a lot to say about the different nature of these beasts. But I'll leave it be.
 
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