New court filings name former UConn standouts Rodney Purvis, Sterling Gibbs, Terry Larrier in Kevin Ollie case

[8893]

Due process in this case would be following the agreed procedure under the contract, no?

I don't know but I don't think it's that simple. I haven't researched this issue in a long time and I'm not going to now, but my memory is that it depends on the circumstances and whether the process provides the employee with notice and a meaningful opportunity to be heard, which may involve the right to confront witnesses.

Again, I'm not talking about the merits of the argument; simply responding to your query about Constitutional rights for a government employee with a "just cause" provision in his or her contract. I *think* that's what he's referring to.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Fighting is one thing, but no college is going to hire him now and that's a fact. He is going to have to head to the NBA and maybe one day he can return to the college game. This makes him look bitter and greedy in the minds of many who follow UConn basketball.

I just wish this was over, that's all.

UConn should have thought of that before they took $10 million that was due to him and then accused him of doing something that would make it impossible for him to ever get another job. If UConn wanted to negotiate the buyout, it should have negotiated the buyout.

 

[Chief00]

UConn should have thought of that before they took $10 million that was due to him and then accused him of doing something that would make it impossible for him to ever get another job. If UConn wanted to negotiate the buyout, it should have negotiated the buyout.

Remember when AD Dave went to Houston for the game and met with KO on that trip? He ran into the same stone wall we see now.

 

[August_West]

I don't know but I don't think it's that simple.

whelp that eliminates CL82 from understanding it then.


Carry on.

 

[intlzncster]

UConn should have thought of that before they took $10 million that was due to him and then accused him of doing something that would make it impossible for him to ever get another job. If UConn wanted to negotiate the buyout, it should have negotiated the buyout.

How do you know they didn't try?

 

[intlzncster]

Remember when AD Dave went to Houston for the game and met with KO on that trip? He ran into the same stone wall we see now.

No idea if the implication is accurate, but one thing we do know is that KO is obstinate (served him well as a player, hurt as a coach). So it wouldn't shock me.

 

[intlzncster]

UConn should have thought of that before they took $10 million that was due to him and then accused him of doing something that would make it impossible for him to ever get another job. If UConn wanted to negotiate the buyout, it should have negotiated the buyout.

It's not impossible. I mean, others have done it, Kelvin Sampson in our own league. We're talking about a coach with a resume that includes a NC and NBA playing career.

What I am curious about is the length of the "Show Cause" penalty that the NCAA will mete out. Looking at othe examples, I'd imagine it'd be about 5 years. The NCAA appears to be heavy handed in cases where the HC misleads them in their investigations, as Ollie did.

Presumably, a new school could hire KO, but simply accept whatever restrictions are placed on KO in the ruling. Given UCONN's sanctions, that would be a relatively easy hit to withstand if someone really wanted KO. That's what I'm not clear on though.

 

[tzznandrew]

It's not impossible. I mean, others have done it, Kelvin Sampson in our own league

Sampson wasn't fired, he resigned.

I don't have the contract in front of me, but I'd bet he was owed less money.

He wasn't accused of lying to the NCAA, and all of the infractions he committed are now perfectly permissable.

He was a coach that had a proven track record of winning in many places, and was 22-4 when he resigned at Indiana.

Again, I don't think these are comparable.

 

[UConnNick]

UConn should have thought of that before they took $10 million that was due to him and then accused him of doing something that would make it impossible for him to ever get another job. If UConn wanted to negotiate the buyout, it should have negotiated the buyout.

I don't understand how the situation can be twisted to suggest that the school somehow "took" money from Ollie, as if they stole it from his pocket.

The contractual provisions seem to be getting lost in all this nonsense. Ollie signed what was essentially a zero tolerance for NCAA violations contract. There was ample evidence he violated the provisions of the contract. The NCAA investigated the allegations, and to compound the breach, Ollie lied to the school and the NCAA.

One can argue the school had some ethical or moral obligation to maybe offer Ollie some settlement amount at the outset, but they certainly had no legal obligation to under the circumstances. Yes, the alleged transgressions might be considered minor, but zero tolerance is what it is. Heck, the Indiana president put Bobby Knight under a zero tolerance rule and then appeared to set him up. That's not what happened here. It was a contractual provision right from the start. So far, nobody seems to know for sure whether he was offered anything or not, except for an assertion they offered him 2.5 million to settle the matter.

As for negotiating a buyout, this whole process is in effect an ongoing negotiation, which may or may not result in a settlement.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I don't understand how the situation can be twisted to suggest that the school somehow "took" money from Ollie, as if they stole it from his pocket.

The contractual provisions seem to be getting lost in all this nonsense. Ollie signed what was essentially a zero tolerance for NCAA violations contract. There was ample evidence he violated the provisions of the contract. The NCAA investigated the allegations, and to compound the breach, Ollie lied to the school and the NCAA.

One can argue the school had some ethical or moral obligation to maybe offer Ollie some settlement amount at the outset, but they certainly had no legal obligation to under the circumstances. Yes, the alleged transgressions might be considered minor, but zero tolerance is what it is. Heck, the Indiana president put Bobby Knight under a zero tolerance rule and then appeared to set him up. That's not what happened here. It was a contractual provision right from the start. So far, nobody seems to know for sure whether he was offered anything or not, except for an assertion they offered him 2.5 million to settle the matter.

As for negotiating a buyout, this whole process is in effect an ongoing negotiation, which may or may not result in a settlement.

I know everyone thinks Ollie will lose the lawsuit because there are so many legal experts on this board. Maybe UConn wins, maybe UConn loses. The part of this debate that is idiotic is that 90% of the posters in this thread think Ollie should just walk away from both $10 million and from ever coaching again because he lost too many games and that made UConn fans angry.

 

[tzznandrew]

I know everyone thinks Ollie will lose the lawsuit because there are so many legal experts on this board. Maybe UConn wins, maybe UConn loses. The part of this debate that is idiotic is that 90% of the posters in this thread think Ollie should just walk away from both $10 million and from ever coaching again because he lost too many games and that made UConn fans angry.

People don't realize he's really not going to get a job coaching college again, at least not for a long time. What UConn accused him of requires a show clause. There's pretty much no coach who has been hired with a similar situation looming over their hiring.

None of these people would lay down. They'd fight with whatever means they had.

 

[whaler11]

Sampson wasn't fired, he resigned.

I don't have the contract in front of me, but I'd bet he was owed less money.

He wasn't accused of lying to the NCAA, and all of the infractions he committed are now perfectly permissable.

He was a coach that had a proven track record of winning in many places, and was 22-4 when he resigned at Indiana.

Again, I don't think these are comparable.

The best part of the BY is the juxtaposition between people obsessed with saving $80 on their cable bill and people talking about how they would walk away from $10 million dollars.

 

[intlzncster]

People don't realize he's really not going to get a job coaching college again, at least not for a long time. What UConn accused him of requires a show clause. There's pretty much no coach who has been hired with a similar situation looming over their hiring

Here's what I don't get.

The idea that UCONN gave Ollie a death penalty by firing 'for cause' doesn't seem accurate.

Ollie was getting 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA regardless.

This NCAA investigation was happening with or without UCONN's firing of Ollie, no?

Ollie lying/misleading the NCAA happened during the investigation.

It wouldn't matter whether the coach was fired 'regularly' or resigned or fired 'for cause' or what have you. The NCAA would offer up show cause no matter what, as that coach was not at the same school.

The 'show cause' penalties only exists to stop coaches from jumping from one school to the next and thereby avoiding penalty.

So Ollie is getting a 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA no matter how the school decided to proceed.

If he was fired and given his $10 million, he'd still be getting that 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA.

As a simple example, Sampson wasn't even fired. He resigned. He still got hit with 'show cause' by the NCAA.

So, you may argue that the 'for cause' firing by UCONN is unethical, but it's not what is hurting KO's future prospects.

 

[intlzncster]

Sampson wasn't fired, he resigned.

I mean sure, if he didn't resign, he would have been fired.

He wasn't accused of lying to the NCAA, and all of the infractions he committed are now perfectly permissable.

This right here is the issue. And it is of Ollie's own making.

He was a coach that had a proven track record of winning in many places, and was 22-4 when he resigned at Indiana.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lower level school would take a runner on Ollie, with his NCAA championship, big conference experience and NBA pedigree. They can easily sell that his last few years were the result of unfortunate injuries.

Again, I don't think these are comparable.

Why does it matter how closely it compares? No situation is going to be exactly comparable from one coach to the next. There's too many variables.

The only thing that matters is whether a 'show cause' is a death sentence full stop. It's not. It can be, but in this instance, sans lawsuit, I'd highly doubt it.

But I get the feeling Ollie coaching in college in the future wasn't much of a priority for him.

 

[Alexa]

I think a lot of us have KO pegged wrongly. He turned down offers from at least 6 NBA teams for 5 yr 25-30mil. Prior to that, he chose an assistant coaching job at UConn over assistant coaching and front office jobs in the NBA. He chose to live in Connecticut over the lights of Los Angeles. He is someone that loved UConn and the state of Connecticut. I don’t think money is his motivation, he has sacrificed money in the past. What’s the bigger picture here? He came to this state in 1991 and has never left. Following JC was no small task and anyone after would be surely doomed. He thrived under the adverse conditions and penalties and won a National championship. Let’s show some respect and not look at this from our priveledged high horses. KO bleeds blue and we have to always remember that.

 

[tzznandrew]

I broke this up in two, for length:

TLDR:

The idea that UCONN gave Ollie a death penalty by firing 'for cause' isn't accurate.

Ollie was getting 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA regardless.



This right here is the issue. And it is of Ollie's own making.

This NCAA investigation was happening with or without UCONN's firing of Ollie, no?

Ollie lying/misleading the NCAA happened during the investigation.

It wouldn't matter whether the coach was fired 'regularly' or resigned or fired 'for cause' or what have you. The NCAA would offer up show cause no matter what, as that coach was not at the same school.

The 'show cause' penalties only exists to stop coaches from jumping from one school to the next and thereby avoiding penalty.

So Ollie is getting a 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA no matter how the school decided to proceed.

If he was fired and given his $10 million, he'd still be getting that 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA.

So, you may argue that the 'for cause' firing by UCONN is unethical, but it's not what is hurting KO's future prospects.

Think of this from KO's perspective. Why is the NCAA knocking on his door? Because Glenn Miller spoke up, and then worked for JC, who did much shadier things than what this is. It all looks like a well-designed plan to push him out and not pay him.

He certainly feels (rightly!) that the school tried to find a way to push him out. Asked and answered many times before: would we have fired JC for this? No. NCAA probably wouldn't have even found out.

So...what's different? JC won and he was losing. But if you're KO you're thinking injuries stopped you, and that with a healthy team, Akinjo and the incoming recruits, he's going to have a chance at turning this around.

I'm happy KO is gone. I wish we did it in a way that was cleaner, because KO is doing what we'd all do despite these protestations.

 

[Chief00]

Sampson wasn't fired, he resigned.

I don't have the contract in front of me, but I'd bet he was owed less money.

He wasn't accused of lying to the NCAA, and all of the infractions he committed are now perfectly permissable.

He was a coach that had a proven track record of winning in many places, and was 22-4 when he resigned at Indiana.

Again, I don't think these are comparable.

Whatever happened post root infractions is the problem. You have to wonder about the communication between KO and his attorneys . Did he lie to them? Why didn’t they protect him better if they logically evaluated things early on - many telltales the facts weren’t lining up with his words - I assume.

 

[tzznandrew]

The only thing that matters is whether a 'show cause' is a death sentence full stop. It's not. It can be, but in this instance, sans lawsuit, I'd highly doubt it.

A 'show-clause' isn't. He's going to struggle find a job with that paired with fired for cause (on the University/him) and his crappy record once he had his own recruits (his fault/fate's fault).

 

[tzznandrew]

Why does it matter how closely it compares? No situation is going to be exactly comparable from one coach to the next. There's too many variables.

Everyone's saying how easy this and how everyone gets jobs after. Yet nobody actually looks at the facts and sees that, in fact, this isn't true. They don't have to be exactly the same, but they have to be in the same ballpark. The only one close to KO is Bruce Pearl.

 

[August_West]

The best part of the BY is the juxtaposition between people obsessed with saving $80 on their cable bill and people talking about how they would walk away from $10 million dollars.

Perfect.

Thats awesome.

 

[tzznandrew]

Perfect.

Thats awesome.

Yup. Actually made me laugh out loud and really puts these threads in the absolute perfect context.

 

[superjohn]

Perfect.

Thats awesome.

Hopefully Ollie can afford cable after all of this.

 

[intlzncster]

A 'show-clause' isn't. He's going to struggle find a job with that paired with fired for cause (on the University/him) and his crappy record once he had his own recruits (his fault/fate's fault).

I mean, I don't think being fired 'for cause' impacts his future prospects in the slightest. If a school thinks he can help them win, they'll hire him.

Ollie will struggle to get a new job because of 3 things:

1. He lied to school and NCAA
2. Whatever 'show cause' penalty the NCAA hands down
3. He stunk his last few years

Put it this way. If a coach like say Pitino was in the exact same situation as Ollie, with the same circumstances, he'd have another job in an instant (assuming no lawsuit and no egregious NCAA penalties). Schools/fans don't care.

Basically, Ollie's future job prospects are the result of his own actions/performance.

To me, UCONN trying to get out of the contract is a separate issue, which you can debate on the merits of that till the cows come home.

For my money, Ollie is welcome to do whatever he wants.

 

[intlzncster]

Everyone's saying how easy this and how everyone gets jobs after. Yet nobody actually looks at the facts and sees that, in fact, this isn't true. They don't have to be exactly the same, but they have to be in the same ballpark. The only one close to KO is Bruce Pearl.

I never said it was easy, nor did I claim it was automatic. Just that it's possible. A death sentence is final; too black and white. This is not necessarily final.

But If you're good, you'll get hired. If you're not, you won't. Assuming the NCAA's cause penalty isn't egregious. But that last bit is on the NCAA, not UCONN.

If a school thinks you are worth the trouble (ie you're a great coach), you'll get hired.

 

[DMIL]

Ollie's attorneys are blithering idiots if they think they will prevail on the merits at an arbitration hearing. Their only hope is to engage in dilatory tactics designed to drag the pre-hearing process out for as long as they possibly can. They're hoping the school offers them a settlement, but I don't think UCONN has any intention of doing that now. They're trying to outlast UCONN, and it's not going to work.

I don't think it really matters at this point. There are plenty of idiotic decision making to go around all across the board.

 

[Madmannsucks]

The best part of the BY is the juxtaposition between people obsessed with saving $80 on their cable bill and people talking about how they would walk away from $10 million dollars.

That is as hard as I have laughed at anything NOT related to Facey on this board.

 

[intlzncster]

Think of this from KO's perspective. Why is the NCAA knocking on his door? Because Glenn Miller spoke up, and then worked for JC, who did much shadier things than what this is. It all looks like a well-designed plan to push him out and not pay him.

He certainly feels (rightly!) that the school tried to find a way to push him out. Asked and answered many times before: would we have fired JC for this? No. NCAA probably wouldn't have even found out.

So...what's different? JC won and he was losing. But if you're KO you're thinking injuries stopped you, and that with a healthy team, Akinjo and the incoming recruits, he's going to have a chance at turning this around.

I'm happy KO is gone. I wish we did it in a way that was cleaner, because KO is doing what we'd all do despite these protestations.

Are you pushing the conspiracy angle here? Honest question.

The NCAA was knocking on UCONN's door almost towards the start of his last season no? (100s of hours of tape before January) It wasn't some big bust at the end of the year. These things move slow (it's the NCAA). At that point, he wasn't about to get chopped. Put it this way, if he had an amazing season, would he have been fired? I don't think so.

Are you saying the Glen Miller thing was under directive by UCONN? And that UCONN engineered this whole thing in the preseason with the idea they were firing Ollie no matter what? So Glen Miller preemptively went to the NCAA to start an investigation because UCONN ordered a code red? Or UCONN were the ones to tip off the NCAA? I'd be surprised, but maybe.

I tend to Occam's Razor it and think the NCAA got a tip off early in the season (perhaps preseason), and in the investigative interviews, Glen Miller went scorched earth, being bitter at being fired. Who tipped off and why is remains to be seen.

Did UCONN self report violations pre season and I missed it?

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Here's what I don't get.

The idea that UCONN gave Ollie a death penalty by firing 'for cause' doesn't seem accurate.

Ollie was getting 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA regardless.

This NCAA investigation was happening with or without UCONN's firing of Ollie, no?

Ollie lying/misleading the NCAA happened during the investigation.

It wouldn't matter whether the coach was fired 'regularly' or resigned or fired 'for cause' or what have you. The NCAA would offer up show cause no matter what, as that coach was not at the same school.

The 'show cause' penalties only exists to stop coaches from jumping from one school to the next and thereby avoiding penalty.

So Ollie is getting a 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA no matter how the school decided to proceed.

If he was fired and given his $10 million, he'd still be getting that 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA.

As a simple example, Sampson wasn't even fired. He resigned. He still got hit with 'show cause' by the NCAA.

So, you may argue that the 'for cause' firing by UCONN is unethical, but it's not what is hurting KO's future prospects.

Sure, but what’s the NCAA’s “show cause” Statute of Limitations? If the departed Ollie continues to drag his dispute out long enough, even some NCAA school eventually may conveniently ignore his NCAA infractions, purported dishonesty or misrepresentation of facts and look the other way regarding his sub-par coaching record with his own recruits, plead ignorance of players transferring, discount reports of decreased recruiting effort, ignore dubious game day coaching, etc.

Enough examples exist of desperate schools (and other organizations) forgetting past negative events of various sorts and clinging on hopes of replicating prior one-off positives. For example, Calamari, Pearl, Mackey, etc all.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Are you pushing the conspiracy angle here? Honest question.

The NCAA was knocking on UCONN's door almost towards the start of his last season no? (100s of hours of tape before January) It wasn't some big bust at the end of the year. These things move slow (it's the NCAA). At that point, he wasn't about to get chopped. Put it this way, if he had an amazing season, would he have been fired? I don't think so.

Are you saying the Glen Miller thing was under directive by UCONN? And that UCONN engineered this whole thing preseason with the idea they were firing Ollie no matter what? So Glen Miller preemptively went to the NCAA to start an investigation? Or Glen or UCONN were the ones to tip off the NCAA? I'd be surprised, but maybe.

I tend to Occam's Razor it and think the NCAA got a tip off early in the season (perhaps preseason), and in the investigative interviews, Glen Miller went scorched earth, being bitter at being fired. Who tipped off and why is remains to be seen.

Did UCONN self report violations pre season and I missed it?

I tend to believe there was a bit of a conspiracy. Miller. Check. JC hanging out with Hurley. Check. Did Uconn leak info to get this rolling-I think so. There were people close to the program who knew. It aint much of a reach.

 

[intlzncster]

I tend to believe there was a bit of a conspiracy. Miller. Check. JC hanging out with Hurley. Check. Did Uconn leak info to get this rolling-I think so. There were people close to the program who knew. It aint much of a reach.

That's a lot of loose connections without any tangible evidence.

I mean, that's a hell of a thing to think preseason last year. It took a while to get the NCAA ball rolling.

They had a ton of injuries the year before, and it could reasonably be argued that this is what caused the team's undoing.

What if they won the league? Would UCONN have fired him even so? If not, they would have completely shot themselves in the foot.

Seems like a hell of dice roll to me, but I guess.