New court filings name former UConn standouts Rodney Purvis, Sterling Gibbs, Terry Larrier in Kevin Ollie case

[tzznandrew]

I broke this up in two, for length:

TLDR:

The idea that UCONN gave Ollie a death penalty by firing 'for cause' isn't accurate.

Ollie was getting 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA regardless.



This right here is the issue. And it is of Ollie's own making.

This NCAA investigation was happening with or without UCONN's firing of Ollie, no?

Ollie lying/misleading the NCAA happened during the investigation.

It wouldn't matter whether the coach was fired 'regularly' or resigned or fired 'for cause' or what have you. The NCAA would offer up show cause no matter what, as that coach was not at the same school.

The 'show cause' penalties only exists to stop coaches from jumping from one school to the next and thereby avoiding penalty.

So Ollie is getting a 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA no matter how the school decided to proceed.

If he was fired and given his $10 million, he'd still be getting that 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA.

So, you may argue that the 'for cause' firing by UCONN is unethical, but it's not what is hurting KO's future prospects.

Think of this from KO's perspective. Why is the NCAA knocking on his door? Because Glenn Miller spoke up, and then worked for JC, who did much shadier things than what this is. It all looks like a well-designed plan to push him out and not pay him.

He certainly feels (rightly!) that the school tried to find a way to push him out. Asked and answered many times before: would we have fired JC for this? No. NCAA probably wouldn't have even found out.

So...what's different? JC won and he was losing. But if you're KO you're thinking injuries stopped you, and that with a healthy team, Akinjo and the incoming recruits, he's going to have a chance at turning this around.

I'm happy KO is gone. I wish we did it in a way that was cleaner, because KO is doing what we'd all do despite these protestations.

 

[Chief00]

Sampson wasn't fired, he resigned.

I don't have the contract in front of me, but I'd bet he was owed less money.

He wasn't accused of lying to the NCAA, and all of the infractions he committed are now perfectly permissable.

He was a coach that had a proven track record of winning in many places, and was 22-4 when he resigned at Indiana.

Again, I don't think these are comparable.

Whatever happened post root infractions is the problem. You have to wonder about the communication between KO and his attorneys . Did he lie to them? Why didn’t they protect him better if they logically evaluated things early on - many telltales the facts weren’t lining up with his words - I assume.

 

[tzznandrew]

The only thing that matters is whether a 'show cause' is a death sentence full stop. It's not. It can be, but in this instance, sans lawsuit, I'd highly doubt it.

A 'show-clause' isn't. He's going to struggle find a job with that paired with fired for cause (on the University/him) and his crappy record once he had his own recruits (his fault/fate's fault).

 

[tzznandrew]

Why does it matter how closely it compares? No situation is going to be exactly comparable from one coach to the next. There's too many variables.

Everyone's saying how easy this and how everyone gets jobs after. Yet nobody actually looks at the facts and sees that, in fact, this isn't true. They don't have to be exactly the same, but they have to be in the same ballpark. The only one close to KO is Bruce Pearl.

 

[August_West]

The best part of the BY is the juxtaposition between people obsessed with saving $80 on their cable bill and people talking about how they would walk away from $10 million dollars.

Perfect.

Thats awesome.

 

[tzznandrew]

Perfect.

Thats awesome.

Yup. Actually made me laugh out loud and really puts these threads in the absolute perfect context.

 

[superjohn]

Perfect.

Thats awesome.

Hopefully Ollie can afford cable after all of this.

 

[intlzncster]

A 'show-clause' isn't. He's going to struggle find a job with that paired with fired for cause (on the University/him) and his crappy record once he had his own recruits (his fault/fate's fault).

I mean, I don't think being fired 'for cause' impacts his future prospects in the slightest. If a school thinks he can help them win, they'll hire him.

Ollie will struggle to get a new job because of 3 things:

1. He lied to school and NCAA
2. Whatever 'show cause' penalty the NCAA hands down
3. He stunk his last few years

Put it this way. If a coach like say Pitino was in the exact same situation as Ollie, with the same circumstances, he'd have another job in an instant (assuming no lawsuit and no egregious NCAA penalties). Schools/fans don't care.

Basically, Ollie's future job prospects are the result of his own actions/performance.

To me, UCONN trying to get out of the contract is a separate issue, which you can debate on the merits of that till the cows come home.

For my money, Ollie is welcome to do whatever he wants.

 

[intlzncster]

Everyone's saying how easy this and how everyone gets jobs after. Yet nobody actually looks at the facts and sees that, in fact, this isn't true. They don't have to be exactly the same, but they have to be in the same ballpark. The only one close to KO is Bruce Pearl.

I never said it was easy, nor did I claim it was automatic. Just that it's possible. A death sentence is final; too black and white. This is not necessarily final.

But If you're good, you'll get hired. If you're not, you won't. Assuming the NCAA's cause penalty isn't egregious. But that last bit is on the NCAA, not UCONN.

If a school thinks you are worth the trouble (ie you're a great coach), you'll get hired.

 

[Madmannsucks]

The best part of the BY is the juxtaposition between people obsessed with saving $80 on their cable bill and people talking about how they would walk away from $10 million dollars.

That is as hard as I have laughed at anything NOT related to Facey on this board.

 

[intlzncster]

Think of this from KO's perspective. Why is the NCAA knocking on his door? Because Glenn Miller spoke up, and then worked for JC, who did much shadier things than what this is. It all looks like a well-designed plan to push him out and not pay him.

He certainly feels (rightly!) that the school tried to find a way to push him out. Asked and answered many times before: would we have fired JC for this? No. NCAA probably wouldn't have even found out.

So...what's different? JC won and he was losing. But if you're KO you're thinking injuries stopped you, and that with a healthy team, Akinjo and the incoming recruits, he's going to have a chance at turning this around.

I'm happy KO is gone. I wish we did it in a way that was cleaner, because KO is doing what we'd all do despite these protestations.

Are you pushing the conspiracy angle here? Honest question.

The NCAA was knocking on UCONN's door almost towards the start of his last season no? (100s of hours of tape before January) It wasn't some big bust at the end of the year. These things move slow (it's the NCAA). At that point, he wasn't about to get chopped. Put it this way, if he had an amazing season, would he have been fired? I don't think so.

Are you saying the Glen Miller thing was under directive by UCONN? And that UCONN engineered this whole thing in the preseason with the idea they were firing Ollie no matter what? So Glen Miller preemptively went to the NCAA to start an investigation because UCONN ordered a code red? Or UCONN were the ones to tip off the NCAA? I'd be surprised, but maybe.

I tend to Occam's Razor it and think the NCAA got a tip off early in the season (perhaps preseason), and in the investigative interviews, Glen Miller went scorched earth, being bitter at being fired. Who tipped off and why is remains to be seen.

Did UCONN self report violations pre season and I missed it?

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Here's what I don't get.

The idea that UCONN gave Ollie a death penalty by firing 'for cause' doesn't seem accurate.

Ollie was getting 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA regardless.

This NCAA investigation was happening with or without UCONN's firing of Ollie, no?

Ollie lying/misleading the NCAA happened during the investigation.

It wouldn't matter whether the coach was fired 'regularly' or resigned or fired 'for cause' or what have you. The NCAA would offer up show cause no matter what, as that coach was not at the same school.

The 'show cause' penalties only exists to stop coaches from jumping from one school to the next and thereby avoiding penalty.

So Ollie is getting a 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA no matter how the school decided to proceed.

If he was fired and given his $10 million, he'd still be getting that 'show cause' penalty from the NCAA.

As a simple example, Sampson wasn't even fired. He resigned. He still got hit with 'show cause' by the NCAA.

So, you may argue that the 'for cause' firing by UCONN is unethical, but it's not what is hurting KO's future prospects.

Sure, but what’s the NCAA’s “show cause” Statute of Limitations? If the departed Ollie continues to drag his dispute out long enough, even some NCAA school eventually may conveniently ignore his NCAA infractions, purported dishonesty or misrepresentation of facts and look the other way regarding his sub-par coaching record with his own recruits, plead ignorance of players transferring, discount reports of decreased recruiting effort, ignore dubious game day coaching, etc.

Enough examples exist of desperate schools (and other organizations) forgetting past negative events of various sorts and clinging on hopes of replicating prior one-off positives. For example, Calamari, Pearl, Mackey, etc all.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Are you pushing the conspiracy angle here? Honest question.

The NCAA was knocking on UCONN's door almost towards the start of his last season no? (100s of hours of tape before January) It wasn't some big bust at the end of the year. These things move slow (it's the NCAA). At that point, he wasn't about to get chopped. Put it this way, if he had an amazing season, would he have been fired? I don't think so.

Are you saying the Glen Miller thing was under directive by UCONN? And that UCONN engineered this whole thing preseason with the idea they were firing Ollie no matter what? So Glen Miller preemptively went to the NCAA to start an investigation? Or Glen or UCONN were the ones to tip off the NCAA? I'd be surprised, but maybe.

I tend to Occam's Razor it and think the NCAA got a tip off early in the season (perhaps preseason), and in the investigative interviews, Glen Miller went scorched earth, being bitter at being fired. Who tipped off and why is remains to be seen.

Did UCONN self report violations pre season and I missed it?

I tend to believe there was a bit of a conspiracy. Miller. Check. JC hanging out with Hurley. Check. Did Uconn leak info to get this rolling-I think so. There were people close to the program who knew. It aint much of a reach.

 

[intlzncster]

I tend to believe there was a bit of a conspiracy. Miller. Check. JC hanging out with Hurley. Check. Did Uconn leak info to get this rolling-I think so. There were people close to the program who knew. It aint much of a reach.

That's a lot of loose connections without any tangible evidence.

I mean, that's a hell of a thing to think preseason last year. It took a while to get the NCAA ball rolling.

They had a ton of injuries the year before, and it could reasonably be argued that this is what caused the team's undoing.

What if they won the league? Would UCONN have fired him even so? If not, they would have completely shot themselves in the foot.

Seems like a hell of dice roll to me, but I guess.

 

[tzznandrew]

That's a lot of loose connections without any tangible evidence.

I mean, that's a hell of a thing to think preseason last year. It took a while to get the NCAA ball rolling.

They had a ton of injuries the year before, and it could reasonably be argued that this is what caused the team's undoing.

What if they won the league? Would UCONN have fired him even so? If not, they would have completely shot themselves in the foot.

Seems like a hell of dice roll to me, but I guess.

I'm not pushing anything. If I were KO? Hell yeah I'd believe it. If you don't think that belief is partially why we're seeing this happen, I think you're missing a key factor.

 

[intlzncster]

Sure, but what’s the NCAA’s “show cause” Statute of Limitations? If the departed Ollie continues to drag his dispute out long enough, even some NCAA school eventually may conveniently ignore his NCAA infractions, purported dishonesty or misrepresentation of facts and look the other way regarding his sub-par coaching record with his own recruits, plead ignorance of players transferring, discount reports of decreased recruiting effort, ignore dubious game day coaching, etc.

Enough examples exist of desperate schools (and other organizations) forgetting past negative events of various sorts and clinging on hopes of replicating prior one-off positives. For example, Calamari, Pearl, Mackey, etc all.

The NCAA sets the 'statute of limitations' when it hands down it's 'show cause' penalty. They set each penalty on a case by case basis.

So for example, when Kelvin Sampson resigned from Indiana, the NCAA handed down a 5 year show cause penalty. After 5 years, it expired. And he was free to go where he wished. I've seen between 1 and 10 or so years, but don't hold me to that.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm not pushing anything. If I were KO? Hell yeah I'd believe it. If you don't think that belief is partially why we're seeing this happen, I think you're missing a key factor.

I'm sure he's thinking that. No argument there.

But I was originally pushing back on the idea that UCONN's choice to fire 'for cause' (ie get out of paying $10m)was killing his future career, as some were claiming.

It's not, it's all the externals that are doing that: future NCAA 'show cause' penalty, poor performance, the fact he mislead everybody, and most importantly, the fact that he is choosing to go scorched earth.

The only real argument is whether people think it's ethical of UCONN to try to get out of the contract or not, and whether KO should sue them for it.

And that's just personal opinion.

 

[auggie22]

I tend to believe there was a bit of a conspiracy. Miller. Check. JC hanging out with Hurley. Check. Did Uconn leak info to get this rolling-I think so. There were people close to the program who knew. It aint much of a reach.

Do you think it more likely that JC was “hanging out with Hurley” as part of the conspiracy or the fact he essentially lives in the same town as URI where his friend Tom Moore coached?

 

[August_West]

Do you think it more likely that JC was “hanging out with Hurley” as part of the conspiracy or the fact he essentially lives in the same town as URI where his friend Tom Moore coached?

Well I guess that depends if you believe Chief or not.

Chief contends JC was recruiting him.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Do you think it more likely that JC was “hanging out with Hurley” as part of the conspiracy or the fact he essentially lives in the same town as URI where his friend Tom Moore coached?

There are no coincidences. I don't know...but if I was Ollie, I would be connecting the dots. Maybe I just need to quit watching Blacklist.

 

[pj]

The best part of the BY is the juxtaposition between people obsessed with saving $80 on their cable bill and people talking about how they would walk away from $10 million dollars.

I haven't seen either of those. What I have seen:
- People wondering why every other school reaches a quick settlement with its fired coach, but UConn and Ollie didn't.
- People wondering why Ollie would walk away from (Chief says) a $2.5 million settlement opportunity when his expected value from fighting was much lower.
- People wondering why Ollie broke with Calhoun.

 

[intlzncster]

Well I guess that depends if you believe Chief or not.

Chief contends JC was recruiting him.

Wait, wait, wait....Did Chief order the Code Red?? All the pieces are starting to fit. Gag order etc....

 

[whaler11]

I haven't seen either of those. What I have seen:
- People wondering why every other school reaches a quick settlement with its fired coach, but UConn and Ollie didn't.
- People wondering why Ollie would walk away from (Chief says) a $2.5 million settlement opportunity when his expected value from fighting was much lower.
- People wondering why Ollie broke with Calhoun.

1. They don’t fire them for cause.
2. LOL
3. Would guess Ollie stopped listening when he won and there is some jealousy on Calhoun’s part that Ollie won. When Ollie won it changed the dynamic of the relationship - Calhoun didn’t get to be as alpha.

 

[whaler11]

Are you pushing the conspiracy angle here? Honest question.

The NCAA was knocking on UCONN's door almost towards the start of his last season no? (100s of hours of tape before January) It wasn't some big bust at the end of the year. These things move slow (it's the NCAA). At that point, he wasn't about to get chopped. Put it this way, if he had an amazing season, would he have been fired? I don't think so.

Are you saying the Glen Miller thing was under directive by UCONN? And that UCONN engineered this whole thing in the preseason with the idea they were firing Ollie no matter what? So Glen Miller preemptively went to the NCAA to start an investigation because UCONN ordered a code red? Or UCONN were the ones to tip off the NCAA? I'd be surprised, but maybe.

I tend to Occam's Razor it and think the NCAA got a tip off early in the season (perhaps preseason), and in the investigative interviews, Glen Miller went scorched earth, being bitter at being fired. Who tipped off and why is remains to be seen.

Did UCONN self report violations pre season and I missed it?

Think about how ridiculous hundreds of hours of tape is for, facetime, shooting baskets in pants and 3 kids maybe getting an tiny extra benefit for travel and lodging for a handful of days in Atlanta.

Every P5 program in the country has committed worse violations in the last 48 hours.