NCAA Tournament, week 1 of 3

[GoCardinal]

Except it isn’t just “a few mid-majors” advancing. Two mid-majors beat two P5 champs. Give them credit. Don’t undermine their hard fought win by saying “9/10” so and so hits that shot. The conversation around P5 bias does in fact need to take place because it effects exposure, seeding, ranking, and more. As Geno already mentioned when bottom P5 schools beat each other everyone says “oh SEE [P5] conference is SO deep. But when non-P5 teams beat on each others it’s just luck and won’t happen 9/10 times?

Except it has been a few? P5 bias absolutely is a thing and these schools have done great in the tournament, but seedings and rankings are based off bodies of work during the regular season. South Dakota, for example, is absolutely a great team that’s playing their best when it counts. But we can’t ignore their double digit regular season losses to non tourney teams in Northwestern and Texas A&M. Also their blowout loss to South Carolina, and another loss to Oklahoma. Belmont lost in the regular season to Auburn and Georgia Tech, and got blown out by Arkansas. In order to assert “x” conference is overrated, you need to look at consistent results.

 

[mbr33ct]

More like a P-4 when Texas and Oklahoma finally leave the Big 12.

Perfect, slide the Big East in as the new P-5.

 

[mbr33ct]

Cincinnati, BYU, UCF, and Houston is joining the Big 12 when Texas and Oklahoma leaves. I'm looking for a school to turn down a P5 invite.

Will the Big 12 still be considered a P-5 conference with them new schools coming in or will it become a "watered down" P-5 conference? ...asking for a Big East fan.

 

[southie]

Cincinnati, BYU, UCF, and Houston is joining the Big 12 when Texas and Oklahoma leaves. I'm looking for a school to turn down a P5 invite.

Is the Big 12 still gonna be considered a P5 conference after Texas and Oklahoma are gone?

 

[shiverz45]

Methinks the end of Baylor WBB as we know it is at hand. Smith, Egbo, Lewis & Bickle may all be gone next year. There’s an OK class coming in, but no one to build a team around, and Nicki Cullen is no Kim Mulkey.

The reign of Texas has begun.

 

[shiverz45]

I don't like conference tourneys, but conferences call the winning teams "Champs." That's why they get the auto bids. Clearly South Carolina was the best SEC team this year, everybody know that.

And again, it's all about context. My point was that getting hot and winning a conference tourney really doesn't help much in the Big Dance.

The regular season champion is considered the champion in the SEC. The tournament is the "SEC tournament champion".

 

[DefenseBB]

Nah, the SEC calls the regular season winner champ.

It's ok, you knew what you were doing and it doesn't bother me. I smile emoji-Ed.

I agree. Winning conference tournaments is pretty bad way of determining a champ and doesn't often mean much for the tournament when a big long shot wins it. It maybe has for a couple of times.

Worse news for the upset as it tends to show a potential fatal flaw. But not even that most of the time.

Actually, no they don’t consider the “Regular Season Winner” the conference champion. They either “footnote” with the Tournament Champion or it is not listed at all unless you look in the individual year. They use it for the seeding in the conference tournament. Some conferences will give two sets of rings for Reg Season and the Tournament Champ but as many sports don’t have a “regular season title (golf, swimming, tennis, etc) the only champion truly recognized is from the conference championship and is thus sent to the NCAA playoffs.

But I am sure you can will hang a banner for it. Unfortunately the 2022 Tournament will call Kentucky the SEC Winner and SC an “At-Large” bid.

 

[TC22]

Actually, no they don’t consider the “Regular Season Winner” the conference champion. They either “footnote” with the Tournament Champion or it is not listed at all unless you look in the individual year. They use it for the seeding in the conference tournament. Some conferences will give two sets of rings for Reg Season and the Tournament Champ but as many sports don’t have a “regular season title (golf, swimming, tennis, etc) the only champion truly recognized is from the conference championship and is thus sent to the NCAA playoffs.

But I am sure you can will hang a banner for it. Unfortunately the 2022 Tournament will call Kentucky the SEC Winner and SC an “At-Large” bid.

Sc was presented the trophy for winning the SEC before the start of the first game. Absolutely we will hang a banner that says SEC Champs 2022.

 

[CompSci87]

Pellington did her Aari McDonald impersonation. Reese being back was big for Arizona. They really cranked up the D and started forcing TOs late. For a while they weren't scoring much off of it, but eventually it wore UNLV down.

I was impressed w/ UNLV. Hung in there, just kept coming at Arizona. I imagine Coach La Rocque could be on the move soon if she wants to be.

Lindy is from Las Vegas, where her dad was a much beloved high school basketball coach. So staying there would be pretty tempting unless she gets a huge offer.

 

[Plebe]

Bashing P5 conferences every chance you get doesn’t strengthen your point in the way you think it does. Is it stemming from bitterness since UConn can’t get an ACC or Big 10 invite? When you’re from the outside looking in, I can surely understand the argument.

Upsets happen, this is the first time this many double digit seeds won in the first two rounds. In fact, this is Creighton’s first time EVER winning in the second round. Maybe when upsets of this scale becomes a pattern, then sure maybe we can start saying the P5 aren’t good. Sure, conference tourney champs in P5s are out. But the regular season champ or co-champ in every single P5 except for one is still in play.

tl;dr: two long paragraphs of fawning.

The fact that you and others are so overly invested in arguing this issue is, once again, case in point.

 

[DefenseBB]

Sc was presented the trophy for winning the SEC before the start of the first game. Absolutely we will hang a banner that says SEC Champs 2022.

And the 2022 NCAAT and the SEC own website will list the Champion as Kentucky (who lost in the 1st round of the NCAAT!). So @nwhoopfan was and is 100% correct.

 

[GoCardinal]

tl;dr: two long paragraphs of fawning.

The fact that you and others are so overly invested in arguing this issue is, once again, case in point.

Because it’s only an issue when you’re bitter about not having a seat at the P5 table. Would you care to advocate about BE WBB and “P5 bias” if UConn hadn’t gotten passed over by the ACC again and again? Because I’m sure Geno would be using the same rhetoric as other P5 coaches if UConn was in one. But, I digress.

 

[nwhoopfan]

And the 2022 NCAAT and the SEC own website will list the Champion as Kentucky (who lost in the 1st round of the NCAAT!). So @nwhoopfan was and is 100% correct.

Hey leave me out of it, I already went a few rounds and then bowed out.

 

[sivad40]

Will the Big 12 still be considered a P-5 conference with them new schools coming in or will it become a "watered down" P-5 conference? ...asking for a Big East fan.

That question will be answered when one of those schools are in the college football playoffs as Big 12 schools.

 

[bballnut90]

Methinks the end of Baylor WBB as we know it is at hand. Smith, Egbo, Lewis & Bickle may all be gone next year. There’s an OK class coming in, but no one to build a team around, and Nicki Cullen is no Kim Mulkey.

Agree. Bickle is back, Smith and Lewis are for sure gone. Not sure what Egbo's doing but I'm guessing she'll declare for the W. Only returnees of note are Sarah Andrews, Ja'Mee Asberry, Caitlin Bickle and Jaden Owens. After today's game, I wouldn't be shocked if Andrews transfers elsewhere.

They also have the #17, #41 and #62 recruits coming in. Collen will need to hit the portal hard but they're likely a middle of the Big 12 type of team.

 

[sivad40]

And the 2022 NCAAT and the SEC own website will list the Champion as Kentucky (who lost in the 1st round of the NCAAT!). So @nwhoopfan was and is 100% correct.

SEC Champions - Women's Basketball - Southeastern Conference

Comprehensive coverage of SEC football, basketball, baseball and more, including live games, scores, schedules, standings and news

www.secsports.com

This quote here came from the SEC Women's Basketball Media guide page 88

"The tournament was first held in 1980, and originally determined the conference champion. Even after the SEC began a uniform conference schedule in the 1982–83 season, the tournament continued to determine the official conference champion through the 1985 edition. Starting in the 1985–86 season, the SEC began awarding its official conference championship solely to the team(s) with the best regular-season record.[1] This change brought SEC women's basketball in line with men's basketball, in which the SEC has awarded its official conference title based on regular-season record since the 1950–51 season.[2]"

 

[shiverz45]

Actually, no they don’t consider the “Regular Season Winner” the conference champion. They either “footnote” with the Tournament Champion or it is not listed at all unless you look in the individual year. They use it for the seeding in the conference tournament. Some conferences will give two sets of rings for Reg Season and the Tournament Champ but as many sports don’t have a “regular season title (golf, swimming, tennis, etc) the only champion truly recognized is from the conference championship and is thus sent to the NCAA playoffs.

But I am sure you can will hang a banner for it. Unfortunately the 2022 Tournament will call Kentucky the SEC Winner and SC an “At-Large” bid.

Although the SEC began sponsoring women's basketball competition in the 1979–80 season, it was not fully integrated into the conference until the 1982–83 season, which was the first in which each team played the same number of conference games. Also, although this article lists both regular-season and tournament champions, the SEC has officially awarded its conference title based solely on the regular-season standings since the 1985–86 season. From 1980 to 1985, the official SEC champion was the tournament winner, but the tournament now only determines the recipient of the SEC's automatic berth in the NCAA tournament.[7]

 

[southie]

Agree. Bickle is back, Smith and Lewis are for sure gone. Not sure what Egbo's doing but I'm guessing she'll declare for the W. Only returnees of note are Sarah Andrews, Ja'Mee Asberry, Caitlin Bickle and Jaden Owens. After today's game, I wouldn't be shocked if Andrews transfers elsewhere.

They also have the #17, #41 and #62 recruits coming in. Collen will need to hit the portal hard but they're likely a middle of the Big 12 type of team.

Queen Egbo did go through Senior Day festivities. But, in today's post-game presser, Collen stated that Queen still has a decision to make about next season.

 

[shiverz45]

Hey leave me out of it, I already went a few rounds and then bowed out.

Good decision, because he is 100% wrong.

 

[SECbbfan24]

Queen Egbo did go through Senior Day festivities. But, in today's post-game presser, Collen stated that Queen still has a decision to make about next season.

If she needs a new home for a year I know a place….

 

[southie]

If she needs a new home for a year I know a place….

Some WNBA mock draft I saw a few weeks ago had Queen moving up into the first round, I believe. So, with the 2023 draft being deeper than 2022, she'd be wise to declare for this year.

On the other hand, if she decides she wants to use her COVID season, but decides to enter the transfer portal and play somewhere other than Baylor, LSU would make sense. Texas would also make sense as the story I heard is that Egbo was all set to give Texas a verbal commitment during her official visit back in September 2018, but when Charli Collier switched her commitment from UConn to Texas, Karen Aston had to tell Egbo that Texas no longer had an opening. And, Queen also made an official visit to Miss. State while Vic was in Starkville. So, I'd imagine she'd have options.

 

[tigers4ever]

I think Collen is a good offensive coach. She changed Baylor's offensive scheme and they will continue to be good and fun to watch. Not sure about her defense or the intangibles yet.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Whew. One more day of the opening weekend. No men's games tomorrow. Then I can catch my breath for a few days. Some intriguing match ups, but I can probably skip most of them. Will definitely tune in for the Arizona-Carolina night cap.

 

[triaddukefan]

I will say this.... as bad as the SEC WBB has looked so far..... overrated has been a term bandied about around here.... it's not as bad (not yet at least) as the dumpster fire that SEC MBB has been through the first two rounds. Top 5 Kentucky squad... bounced in the first round by St. Peters... Top 5 TN squad... gone in the second round.... Top 7 Auburn squad.... got dog walked by Miami in the second round. LSU fired their coach and got bounced in the first round. Bama got rocked by ND in the first round. The only surviving squad is Arkansas. The pigs escaped by powerhouses Vermont and New Mexico State. Did I mention that EVERY SINGLE SEC TEAM was the higher seeded squad? That's two 2 seeds... a 3 seed a 4 seed and 2 six seeds.

Don't get me started on the Big 10 men's...


OK... sorry about that tangent... back to WBB.

 

[Plebe]

I will say this.... as bad as the SEC WBB has looked so far..... overrated has been a term bandied about around here.... it's not as bad (not yet at least) as the dumpster fire that SEC MBB has been through the first two rounds. Top 5 Kentucky squad... bounced in the first round by St. Peters... Top 5 TN squad... gone in the second round.... Top 7 Auburn squad.... got dog walked by Miami in the second round. LSU fired their coach and got bounced in the first round. Bama got rocked by ND in the first round. The only surviving squad is Arkansas. The pigs escaped by powerhouses Vermont and New Mexico State. Did I mention that EVERY SINGLE SEC TEAM was the higher seeded squad? That's two 2 seeds... a 3 seed a 4 seed and 2 six seeds.

Don't get me started on the Big 10 men's...


OK... sorry about that tangent... back to WBB.

If not for the home court thing, the SEC women would be right there with the men. LSU definitely would've lost on a neutral court, Tennessee probably would have, and with SC who knows.

Georgia was the only SEC women's team to win a neutral-court game, and then they were destroyed by an Iowa State team that barely beat a 14 seed two days earlier.

 

[LETTERL]

Although the SEC began sponsoring women's basketball competition in the 1979–80 season, it was not fully integrated into the conference until the 1982–83 season, which was the first in which each team played the same number of conference games. Also, although this article lists both regular-season and tournament champions, the SEC has officially awarded its conference title based solely on the regular-season standings since the 1985–86 season. From 1980 to 1985, the official SEC champion was the tournament winner, but the tournament now only determines the recipient of the SEC's automatic berth in the NCAA tournament.[7]

I did not realize that. It seems strange.

I did not realize the regular season champion was deemed the league champion.

 

[HuskyNan]

Except it isn’t just “a few mid-majors” advancing. Two mid-majors beat two P5 champs. Give them credit. Don’t undermine their hard fought win by saying “9/10” so and so hits that shot. The conversation around P5 bias does in fact need to take place because it effects exposure, seeding, ranking, and more. As Geno already mentioned when bottom P5 schools beat each other everyone says “oh SEE [P5] conference is SO deep. But when non-P5 teams beat on each others it’s just luck and won’t happen 9/10 times?

UConn is a mid-major team

 

[cancontent]

I will say this.... as bad as the SEC WBB has looked so far..... overrated has been a term bandied about around here.... it's not as bad (not yet at least) as the dumpster fire that SEC MBB has been through the first two rounds. Top 5 Kentucky squad... bounced in the first round by St. Peters... Top 5 TN squad... gone in the second round.... Top 7 Auburn squad.... got dog walked by Miami in the second round. LSU fired their coach and got bounced in the first round. Bama got rocked by ND in the first round. The only surviving squad is Arkansas. The pigs escaped by powerhouses Vermont and New Mexico State. Did I mention that EVERY SINGLE SEC TEAM was the higher seeded squad? That's two 2 seeds... a 3 seed a 4 seed and 2 six seeds.

Don't get me started on the Big 10 men's...


OK... sorry about that tangent... back to WBB.

I'm surprised you haven't considering Duke took care of Mich State.

 

[HuskyNan]

Except it has been a few? P5 bias absolutely is a thing and these schools have done great in the tournament, but seedings and rankings are based off bodies of work during the regular season. South Dakota, for example, is absolutely a great team that’s playing their best when it counts. But we can’t ignore their double digit regular season losses to non tourney teams in Northwestern and Texas A&M. Also their blowout loss to South Carolina, and another loss to Oklahoma. Belmont lost in the regular season to Auburn and Georgia Tech, and got blown out by Arkansas. In order to assert “x” conference is overrated, you need to look at consistent results.

The problem with that is that it places too much emphasis on the regular season and not enough on the arc of the team‘s development. For example, Geno uses the regular season to prepare his team for the post-season, playing teams with different styles of play to prepare them for any potential opponent in the tourney. This can cause losses as players learn and adjust but makes them stronger in the long run.

All teams improve during the regular season. Freshmen get experience, teams develop chemistry and gel, and players build up stamina and strength. The teams with the most/best talent can get through the regular season lessons with fewest losses, sure, but does that make them the best teams?

That’s why I think the Quad 1, etc thing is junk. The trajectory of the team over time, not win-loss record, should be emphasized more but that’s too hard to analyze. So, upsets happen because teams like South Dakota got stronger through the season but it wasn’t reflected in the seed. Seeing the upsets does make for a more exciting tourney, though.

 

[diggerfoot]

Great coaching and/or great talent can land a team in the tournament. Great coaching takes more time to manifest itself and is more likely the reason why a mid-major lands in the tournament.

I do not think there is an overt P-5 bias in the seeding but, as @HuskyNan just stated, the seedings do not properly account for how teams developed throughout the year, which results in a bias favoring talent over coaching, which results in a seeding bias against mid-majors, which results in upsets each year that “expose” the P-5 conferences.