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NBA Post-Season Thread

The point is when hes the one guy you are in trouble. When he is your only option you are not winning anything. His playoff shooting percentages decline hugely over his regular season numbers for a reason.
So the solution is to trade him for subpar value? Why not try to load up the roster around him?

IT can't be the best player on a title team, but he can be a go-to scorer. I'm not sure I understand why many Celtics fans are so willing to part ways with a player like that.
 
I think the Bulls D had a lot to do with it, this is the best D I've seen them play all season. With Wade and Rondo playing like this to compliment Butler I'm not really sure the Celts have the talent to matchup. It's a minor miracle Stevens was able to get a 1 seed out of that roster, besides Isaiah's scoring outbursts nothing on that roster wows me.

The Celtics are better IMO, but the Bulls are playing really well and deserved the wins. IT is not himself for obvious reasons.
 
So the solution is to trade him for subpar value? Why not try to load up the roster around him?

IT can't be the best player on a title team, but he can be a go-to scorer. I'm not sure I understand why many Celtics fans are so willing to part ways with a player like that.

He is going to want a max, and rightfully so. It comes down to whether you want to be paying him 30 million a year as a 33, 34, 35 year old. I don't know the answer and you have watched him a lot more than I have.
 
Weren't the Bulls one of the preseason favorites in the East? Bulls have the best player in the series, a clutch closer, a motivated former Celtic pg with playoff experience, the Bulls are just a better team, the Celtics had a better season.
 
Hard to disagree with you there. KD is somehow underrated. He has never been the best player in the League, which is bizarre for a potential top 10 player, but that's life when you share your prime with the 2nd best player of all time.

Happens more than you think, how long was Kobe the BitL for? Hakeem was only ever the BitL when MJ took those 2 years off, Bird & Magic had to share the title. Also IMO KD was very sneakily the best player in the league this year before getting hurt.
 
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I'm not as plugged into the Celtics as others here, but nothing has really changed for me big picture through these first two games as bad as the optics are. Forget the fact that they don't have the horses of your typical #1 seed - their statistical profile indicated that they were closer to a four or five seed caliber. +2.7 point differential, which would have ranked sixth in the west, and as other people have mentioned that figure was likely aided by depth and great coaching.

Even accounting for all that, there should be a regression to the mean. The Celtics aren't this bad and the Bulls aren't this good - this smelled like a seven game series to me earlier in the week and I could still see it getting to that point if the Celtics can re-discover their moxie. Pointless as it is to speculate, it's hard to imagine that the Thomas situation hasn't had an impact on their play.

The conundrum for Boston moving forward is Thomas. I equate the output of him and other guys during this age of pace and space to the production of baseball players during the steroid era. The three point line has inflated point totals to thresholds I don't think they were ever really intended to cross and as a result we live in a world where a 5'9 guy averages 29 a game on absurd efficiency. I mean Christ, I love Kemba, but the fact that he's approaching 25 a game demonstrates how silly this has all gotten.

I think the "the regular season and playoffs are totally different" angle is overplayed, but there's no denying that there are certain players and teams more conducive to playoff success than others, and with guys like Isaiah, it's difficult to extrapolate that regular season magic into corresponding playoff production when we've seen better players like Curry taper off.

Ultimately, I think we're still in that awkward phase where everybody - including the smartest people - is figuring this out, and so sitting here today all I can say is I don't know. I consider myself pretty open to the advanced numbers, but you watch a guy like Kyrie in the playoffs and wonder if there are certain things the formulas are just never going to pick up on. Is Isaiah better than Mike Conely? I don't know. The extent to which the officials swallow the whistle in the playoffs will dictate a lot of this, in addition to a bunch of other stylistic variables that are tough to quantify.

I do agree with @walker11 that it is very easy for our perspective to become warped as we're watching arguably the greatest team of all-time - the Warriors - converge with the best player of the generation. I look at a guy like Chris Paul, realize he has absolutely no chance of breaking through to the conference finals, and wonder how his legacy would have been different in another time. A lot of this stuff is just pure luck.
 
I consider myself pretty open to the advanced numbers, but you watch a guy like Kyrie in the playoffs and wonder if there are certain things the formulas are just never going to pick up on.

In my opinion, in high level playoff games, offensive scheming can only get you so far. It will always come down to the horses. And advanced stats undervalue guys who can create and make very difficult shots. Guys like Kobe, and Kyrie. Kyrie looks crappy on some advanced stats relative to his peers but he is one of the best shot creators in the league, and if he only makes 38% of these shots, this is still an amazingly valuable skill. My apologies if I have already posted the exact same thing in this thread.
 
The Bucks are a year away from being a legitimate challenger to the Cavaliers in the East. Giannis is barely scratching the surface and Middleton is good enough to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a top tier team assuming he recovers completely by next season.. Either they have the best scouts in the NBA or they pulled Brogdan and Maker out of their , but either way, those two are going to be good. I know he is not always giving 100% effort on defense, but I like Monroe more than Parker, who I think just sucks defensively. Dellavadova is better coming off the bench than starting. Snell, Teletovic and Hawes are decent backups.

From a cap perspective, Henson and Parker are the only problems. Henson has a big contract for a barely NBA caliber player, and Parker is going to want big money in a year. I think the Bucks are better off without Parker, and should figure out how to move both of them together in a cap deal to get a decent veteran point guard.
 
The time to do Butler deal was last June when supposedly they would have taken Crowder and #3 (Brown), #16 French Draymond Green.

This team is bad honestly. The #1 thing seems like a mirage, they are worse than Cavs, Wiz, Toronto, Bulls and possibly Pacers, Hawks.

Yeah I don't disagree that they have the pieces to have made a Butler deal, but even without that there was available inside help that was there for the taking. The lack of rebounding is an issue that no player development was going to address and it mystifies me that Ainge didn't make a move.
 
Weren't the Bulls one of the preseason favorites in the East? Bulls have the best player in the series, a clutch closer, a motivated former Celtic pg with playoff experience, the Bulls are just a better team, the Celtics had a better season.

They weren't a favorite then and aren't good now.
 
So the solution is to trade him for subpar value? Why not try to load up the roster around him?

IT can't be the best player on a title team, but he can be a go-to scorer. I'm not sure I understand why many Celtics fans are so willing to part ways with a player like that.
The options are pay him a max deal after next year or trade him when his value is at his highest.

Paying him a max deal, in conjunction with Horford's deal, will prevent the Celtics from "loading up" the roster around him unless Brown becomes a great player and they hit home runs on the two Nets picks coming up.

Personally I would rather not pay him the max deal and get some good draft picks or get a real good young player for him.
 
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The Celtics remind me so much of the Thibodeau coached Bulls teams. They scratch and claw all season long, playing their starters big minutes and not taking any nights off. Playing this way they are able to complile a really good regular season record only to have their weaknesses exposed early in the playoffs.
 
In my opinion, in high level playoff games, offensive scheming can only get you so far. It will always come down to the horses. And advanced stats undervalue guys who can create and make very difficult shots. Guys like Kobe, and Kyrie. Kyrie looks crappy on some advanced stats relative to his peers but he is one of the best shot creators in the league, and if he only makes 38% of these shots, this is still an amazingly valuable skill. My apologies if I have already posted the exact same thing in this thread.

Yeah no doubt, especially because the further you advance the more liberal you're going to get defensively with things like switching and trapping. The Cavs aren't going to ask Tristan Thompson to chase guards around for 82 games, but he can do it for a series against Golden State if he has to. The Warriors aren't going to ask Klay Thompson to guard fours all season but he can do it in the playoffs if he has to.

The better the talent the more primitive the game becomes sometimes. Kyrie has shown the ability to crack elite defenses in a way other guards that I think are typically better than him have not.

For those who have watched Isaiah more than me: is he a big time iso scorer or is he more of a pnr guy? Because it seems like heady guards are going to have an easier time manipulating defenses during the regular season.
 
I see way too many people letting the Celts and Stevens off the hook too easily. Nobody thought this team was a legit title contender but losing 2 straight home games in front of fired up crowds to a team that they were 12 wins better than while playing the same schedule is downright embarrassing. Where's the "elite" defense from Crowder/Bradley/Smart? This Celts team isn't as talented as a 1 seed typically is, but acting like this team isn't more talented than the Bulls are simply wrong. Wade and Rondo are both well past their primes and neither can shoot. Butler is a star, but so is Isaiah. IT is probably going to make 2nd team all-NBA and he isn't even the guy on the team making max money, I'm tired of hearing that this team doesn't have the talent to beat this Bulls team.
 
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Bulls were an absolute mess all year. I think the entire roster including the HC were available in a trade at some point this year. Thank goodness the anti-brain trust of Gar Forman and John Paxson didn't trade Butler. GarPax traded Taj Gibson and Doug McDermott for two guys who aren't even dressing for the Bulls during the playoffs. All that being said the Bulls did split the season series against the Celts and swept the season series against the Cavs, so there is some talent on the roster. Rondo has been great since getting the starting job back last month. Robin Lopez played his two best games of the year in games 1&2. I just got an invite to the game on Friday night. Might even don my Ben Gordon Bulls jersey for the game.
 
I see way too many people letting the Celts and Stevens off the hook too easily. Nobody thought this team was a legit title contender but losing 2 straight home games in front of fired up crowds to a team that they were 12 wins better than while playing the same schedule is downright embarrassing. Where's the "elite" defense from Crowder/Bradley/Smart? This Celts team isn't as talented as a 1 seed typically is, but acting like this team isn't more talented than the Bulls are simply wrong. Wade and Rondo are both well past their primes and neither can shoot. Butler is a star, but so is Isaiah. IT is probably going to make 2nd team all-NBA and he isn't even the guy on the team making max money, I'm tired of hearing that this team doesn't have the talent to beat this Bulls team.
The Celts are absolutely culpable, getting outsmarted (quick/dumb shots, turnovers) and outhustled (rebounds) by the Bulls, both inexcusable. Brad Steven's playoff record is cause for concern at this point as are the playoff bonafides of key pieces Smart, Crowder and Horford - all of whom seem to get worse or fade in postseason.

I do think Butler is unquestionably the best player in the series, and after Isaiah though it should be Horford, next come the 3 Bulls; Rondo, Wade & Lopez better than anyone in green. I think that's legit as you'd take for one series in 2017 any of those guys over the Amir Johnson's, Oleniks, Brown etc.. Celtics roster top to bottom is better than Bulls, but the middle is in favor of the Bulls and the Rondo factor was looming to kill them. Rondo wasn't motivated since big-3 days and nearly played himself out of the league, but he's a jerk and that tendency works in his favor to beat the Celtics. The Celtics would trade Avery Bradley or Smart etc.. for either Rondo or Wade in a heartbeat for game 3, likewise Lopez for Johnson and probably Miritic for Crowder.

Depressing reality is outside of Isaiah's otherworldly regular season performance which is likely not repeated in future years and definitely not happening in this series, the Celtics are a middle of pack team. Vs. Bulls, Celts advantage of being younger negated by rest and experience & size seem way more important. Best thing I can say about the series is Ainge is learning none of the pieces, cheap contracts or not are un-trade-able. Worst thing is I have no bright side for Brad Steven's 2-10 playoff record.
 
The Celts are absolutely culpable, getting outsmarted (quick/dumb shots, turnovers) and outhustled (rebounds) by the Bulls, both inexcusable. Brad Steven's playoff record is cause for concern at this point as are the playoff bonafides of key pieces Smart, Crowder and Horford - all of whom seem to get worse or fade in postseason.

I do think Butler is unquestionably the best player in the series, and after Isaiah though it should be Horford, next come the 3 Bulls; Rondo, Wade & Lopez better than anyone in green. I think that's legit as you'd take for one series in 2017 any of those guys over the Amir Johnson's, Oleniks, Brown etc.. Celtics roster top to bottom is better than Bulls, but the middle is in favor of the Bulls and the Rondo factor was looming to kill them. Rondo wasn't motivated since big-3 days and nearly played himself out of the league, but he's a jerk and that tendency works in his favor to beat the Celtics. The Celtics would trade Avery Bradley or Smart etc.. for either Rondo or Wade in a heartbeat for game 3, likewise Lopez for Johnson and probably Miritic for Crowder.

Depressing reality is outside of Isaiah's otherworldly regular season performance which is likely not repeated in future years and definitely not happening in this series, the Celtics are a middle of pack team. Vs. Bulls, Celts advantage of being younger negated by rest and experience & size seem way more important. Best thing I can say about the series is Ainge is learning none of the pieces, cheap contracts or not are un-trade-able. Worst thing is I have no bright side for Brad Steven's 2-10 playoff record.

Mirotic for Crowder, no way. Rondo is not better than Bradley either but he sure looks motivated for this series so I'll give you that one.

The Bulls are not talented. They have a s____ roster with pieces that do not complement each other. People want them to be some sleeping giant to explain this inexplicable start but they are not. They are probably somewhat of a bad fit for the Celtics, but still. The Bulls played 7 guys double figure minutes last night which helps mitigate their s____ roster but isn't a good plan for a team that isn't exactly young.
 
Mirotic for Crowder, no way. Rondo is not better than Bradley either but he sure looks motivated for this series so I'll give you that one.

The Bulls are not talented. They have a s____ roster with pieces that do not complement each other. People want them to be some sleeping giant to explain this inexplicable start but they are not. They are probably somewhat of a bad fit for the Celtics, but still. The Bulls played 7 guys double figure minutes last night which helps mitigate their s____ roster but isn't a good plan for a team that isn't exactly young.
Haha yup, I love when people try to write off an 82-game sample size because a team played well a couple games in a row.

There are exceptions where teams have coasted and then turned on the switch in the playoffs, but the Bulls ain't it.
 
Enjoying this OKC/Houston game right now.

Also DHam & co playing for a D League conference championship right now on ESPNU.
 
Some people just may not understand the matchups/workings of the NBA. The Bulls may have a crappy roster to some but DW, Rondo, Butler all have playoff experience and regardless of age are capable of putting together a strong string of games. The Bulls are big in comparison to the Celts and when you have 4 guys hitting their shots, all hitting the boards and have a big who is banging the boards with little opposition - lots can happen. Then you have a guy like Portis who all of a sudden comes alive and joins the rest of the team in hitting 75% of his shots. The two teams that Boston matches up the worse with in the East are Miami and Chicago - guess who they draw either Miami or Chicago. The Bulls have had some unbelievably impressive games this year, especially when Rondo plays and is on the same page as DW.
The Celtics, as they stand now, are not a playoff tested team and it shows. They also need a legitimate 5 - if they had that this series would not be close.
In addition - I Thomas is not his usual, for obvious reasons
Brad Stevens has done a great job but he needs a big and to shore up the bench behind Marcus, Terry and Jaylen. Gerald Green was a lights out shooter and then after the All Star game he has gone stone cold. Losing last night spells trouble for their chances of advancing
 
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The Celtics remind me so much of the Thibodeau coached Bulls teams. They scratch and claw all season long, playing their starters big minutes and not taking any nights off. Playing this way they are able to complile a really good regular season record only to have their weaknesses exposed early in the playoffs.
FYI- it started with the Pat Riley Miami Heat Alonzo Mourning years....Max out their talent in the regular season because their great coaches...Problem is the rest of the teams get better in the playoffs because they try a lot more meanwhile Miami or Celtics have been trying hard all year...NBA needs help..
 
I was on the fence about this before, but watching how good the Warriors look, it's clear to me that Durant going there was just flat out bad for the sport. Don't get me wrong, it's cool to watch, and it remains to be seen how things play out, but right now, the optics aren't good. Not for him, not for the league. We're potentially missing out on what could have been two epic re-matches (OKC vs Golden State in the conference finals and then potentially GSW-CLE the rubber match in the finals).

He obviously has his rights and in a weird way I respect him for doing this knowing he was going to get killed for it, but it doesn't seem to be working out for the league from my eyes. You took a league where four or five teams could have won the title - GS, OKC, SA, Cle, maybe LAC or HOU - and reduced it to a product that feels too UConn women's'ish to me.
 
NBA set an attendance record this year. The TV ratings are up also. So somebody is watching the non contenders. The NBA has always been a stars league. Most people enjoyed the Celts/Lakers years even though they knew the rest of the league was on a lower level. Durant was a free agent and went where he thought he had the best chance to win a title. I don't hold that against him. The Warriors are even more fun to watch with him on board. I think the optics for him and the league are fine. Now, the optics of stars sitting out regular season games -- bad for the league.
 
NBA set an attendance record this year. The TV ratings are up also. So somebody is watching the non contenders. The NBA has always been a stars league. Most people enjoyed the Celts/Lakers years even though they knew the rest of the league was on a lower level. Durant was a free agent and went where he thought he had the best chance to win a title. I don't hold that against him. The Warriors are even more fun to watch with him on board. I think the optics for him and the league are fine. Now, the optics of stars sitting out regular season games -- bad for the league.
They need to shorten the season, especially for contenders.

Then, they need to do something to generate end of year excitement. Much as I disagree with most of Bill Simmons, his suggestion of keeping 16 teams in the lottery and having an end of year--pick not at stake--tournament for the last East and West spot would be a huge money maker, and generate all sorts of end of year interest while giving fans reasons to hope all year.
 
They need to shorten the season, especially for contenders.

Then, they need to do something to generate end of year excitement. Much as I disagree with most of Bill Simmons, his suggestion of keeping 16 teams in the lottery and having an end of year--pick not at stake--tournament for the last East and West spot would be a huge money maker, and generate all sorts of end of year interest while giving fans reasons to hope all year.
Was this on Grantland? I haven't read it.
 
I was on the fence about this before, but watching how good the Warriors look, it's clear to me that Durant going there was just flat out bad for the sport. Don't get me wrong, it's cool to watch, and it remains to be seen how things play out, but right now, the optics aren't good. Not for him, not for the league. We're potentially missing out on what could have been two epic re-matches (OKC vs Golden State in the conference finals and then potentially GSW-CLE the rubber match in the finals).

He obviously has his rights and in a weird way I respect him for doing this knowing he was going to get killed for it, but it doesn't seem to be working out for the league from my eyes. You took a league where four or five teams could have won the title - GS, OKC, SA, Cle, maybe LAC or HOU - and reduced it to a product that feels too UConn women's'ish to me.
I think that's right, the NBA regular season was unexpectedly great this year due to the emergence of new superstars (Giannis, Wall & Beal, Isaiah, Hayward) and a few of the very best players taking their games to MVP levels (Russ, Harden, Kawhi) but that obscured the fact that Cavs were likely past peak while Warriors still ascending. This might be a rare case where the regular season is more dramatic than the playoffs.

That said I still think there are going to be lots of good basketball games to watch. FOUR first round series are pretty intriguing so far (Celts-Bulls, Raptors-Bucks, Houston-OKC, Clips-Jazz) and reasonable to expect 3/4 to remain good thru 5-7 games. Likewise the 2nd round will have good matchups and I think for first time in many LeBron years the Eastern finals will be intriguing. So although the final outcome might be a fate compleat, bottom line is we are getting more good basketball games and interesting players to watch. Mostly due to Eastern conference improving while the West slides back down to earth via OKC/Durant loss and Spurs + Clippers aging.

With respect to Bulls-Celts 100% agree with gtcam, I didn't mean I'd trade Rondo for Smart long-term, but for this series Celts guys in general are inexperienced and really playing quite stupidly. Doesn't matter that the Bulls have no chance to make the finals, neither do the Celtics but I'd sure like to watch them play 12+ playoff games vs 4 or 5 and out.
 
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