Maryland’s $157 million counterclaim: ACC recruited B1G schools

[06029]

Were it not for ND's vote, there's a chance the BE football schools would be together today.

This is where we have vastly different opinions. The split was going to happen no matter how ND voted.

The handwriting was on the wall when BC, VT and Miami left. The split should have happened then (or maybe before that). This is where you will go on about BB credits, and owed money, etc., but that was short term blindness that could have been resolved thru negotiation. Uconn was blinded by BB as was Cuse and Pitt. If the FB's split then, they would have had a dominant FB and BB conference and the talk would not be of the P5 but of the P6 with 6, 12 team conferences. When they decided to try and save the past, the demise of the BE was sealed. In my opinion.

ND is ruthless and self serving in every decision as it relates to athletics. I don't think we disagree about that. But the BE as a FB/BB confederation was doomed to failure based on ts origins, leadership and its self-identification as a BB conference that has some FB teams. ND had no role in that.

 

[upstater]

This is where we have vastly different opinions. The split was going to happen no matter how ND voted.

The handwriting was on the wall when BC, VT and Miami left. The split should have happened then (or maybe before that). This is where you will go on about BB credits, and owed money, etc., but that was short term blindness that could have been resolved thru negotiation. Uconn was blinded by BB as was Cuse and Pitt. If the FB's split then, they would have had a dominant FB and BB conference and the talk would not be of the P5 but of the P6 with 6, 12 team conferences. When they decided to try and save the past, the demise of the BE was sealed. In my opinion.

ND is ruthless and self serving in every decision as it relates to athletics. I don't think we disagree about that. But the BE as a FB/BB confederation was doomed to failure based on ts origins, leadership and its self-identification as a BB conference that has some FB teams. ND had no role in that.

UConn, Cuse and Pitt all wanted to split, but ND's vote blocked them. I'm not going on about bball credits or money or anything. I'm talking about the BCS bid that just ended this year. That's 10 years of BCS bids. Without it, you're the Mountain West.

 

[SubbaBub]

W/o ND the BE doesn't invite Butler and Marquette and either invites two other FB schools or breaks away from the BB schools.

It was ND voting with the C7 that prevented more of a focus on FB, which would've been the right move.

Also likely accepts ESPN's initial offer (or the 10 team equivalent) keeps WVU, Pitt, Cuse, UL and RU along with its BCS bid (though I am assuming a FB league starting in 2005 builds enough momentum with that last one)

Don't underestimate the role the FB/BBonly dynamic played in the departures. ND being the 8th BB vote allowed that to happen.

 

[bobbyinaz]

W/o ND the BE doesn't invite Butler and Marquette and either invites two other FB schools or breaks away from the BB schools.

It was ND voting with the C7 that prevented more of a focus on FB, which would've been the right move.

Also likely accepts ESPN's initial offer (or the 10 team equivalent) keeps WVU, Pitt, Cuse, UL and RU along with its BCS bid (though I am assuming a FB league starting in 2005 builds enough momentum with that last one)

Don't underestimate the role the FB/BBonly dynamic played in the departures. ND being the 8th BB vote allowed that to happen.

A perfect example of the power the BBonlys had was the fact that head of the Big East Expansion committee was none other than the ND AD. The fact that this ever was allowed to happen shows there was NEVER any interest from BE leadership in supporting the FB schools

 

[upstater]

By the same reasoning that holds that the New Big East gets $4m a year for bball only while the AAC gets $2m for football and basketball (which is, few crud games, lots of teams drawing interest--apparently), a Big East that consisted solely of Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, Louisville, West Virginia, Cincinnati, Rutgers, USF & maybe a school like Memphis, would have jacked up the basketball side of the ledger considerably and increased that $13 million a year ESPN offer to $16 or $17m (and that's being conservative when you realize that the Catholics got a 100% increase when they left the BE for a new bball contract).

Is $17m a year enough?

 

[bobbyinaz]

By the same reasoning that holds that the New Big East gets $4m a year for bball only while the AAC gets $2m for football and basketball (which is, few crud games, lots of teams drawing interest--apparently), a Big East that consisted solely of Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, Louisville, West Virginia, Cincinnati, Rutgers, USF & maybe a school like Memphis, would have jacked up the basketball side of the ledger considerably and increased that $13 million a year ESPN offer to $16 or $17m (and that's being conservative when you realize that the Catholics got a 100% increase when they left the BE for a new bball contract).

Is $17m a year enough?

It depends on what the other conferences are making.

Forget about the SEC & B1G because their numbers are way out there.

If the Big 12, PAC12 & ACC are all making right around the same or a little bit more (say $20MM which is where they are now) then yes, that is a great conference for keeping local rivalries alive and it provides enough revenue per school to keep everyone happy

 

[UConnJim]

End of the day, ND could have saved BE football by joining the BE as a full member back in the early 2000s when Miami, VT, and BC left. BUT, they didn't want to save BE football. Just like they have no incentive to save ACC football down the road if the ACC is at a crossroad.

If you assumed the basketball and football schools split, the new conference would have been pretty good: ND, VT, Miami, BC, Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, UConn, Rutgers, and they could have added Louisville, Cincinnati, and one other school later, probably Memphis. Maybe Penn St would have been interested.

 

[SouthronCross]

And now FSU is the NC, and chances of a repeat are steady. However ND has the sweetest deal of anyone in the ACC, and that fact should and will eat at the heart of all FSU supporters over time. FSU has been, is, and will be ACC football - and yet ND has a better deal.

Maybe FSU should change their colors to green with envy. Methinks the FSU/Big 12 talk rumours will come again at some point.

I agree that FSU is in a position now that ND wishes it was in. FSU will be in the national playoff hunt most years, because of their coaching, recruiting, and, talent. If you compare the two at present, ND comes up woefully short.

I do not see the FSU-Big 12 talks coming back in earnest, at least not anytime soon. FSU was genuinely worried that being in the ACC would lock them out of any future playoff talk, and, this past season shows that the only thing keeping them out will be their own performance. They can play with anybody, and, their conference affiliation is of no issue. Heck, they showed that when they first joined the ACC. They are set up for some high level long term success with Jimbo Fisher.

 

[SouthronCross]

The ACC's tv money was (is) certainly a problem for UMD, but private fundraising is a big, big problem, too. Maryland is the richest state in America, but its University's alumni just don't give. Part of that has to do with Maryland being an incredibly transient state. Part of it has to do with a very poorly run Terrapin Club. The TC has a new ED and has been re-integrated back into ICA i.e. the TC ED reports to the AD again instead of some random academic like it was under Yow. Maryland may see fruit from those changes, maybe not. But what they will see is more money from the Big Ten than they would've from the ACC. That should help. It also helps that they no longer have a AD that will fund projects that don't have sustainable funding sources or grossly over pay women's basketball and competitive cheerleading coaches. People really don't understand how Yow ran that athletic department into the ground. NC State fans are now seeing it though.

That has always surprised me about UMD. You have a wealthy state, with no other FBS-level competition within the state,and, you have good HSFB and hoops. You all have a set up a lot of other states would be envious of.

About Yow, she really was a horrible AD for you. From afar, she really hurt your athletic department, spending so lavishly. Losing her was a blessing for you. If she had not been the sister of the great Kay Yow...as fine a person and coach as this league has ever seen...she would have never gotten the job at NCSU.

 

[SouthronCross]

I don't think on there own Clemson is that attractive w/o FSU. FSU listening to Clemson sounds like wagging the dog? I know the B1G has little thirst for any but the best combination of athletics/academics/markets out there and honestly Clemson would have problems finding a fit outside the ACC alone w/o an attractive partner IMO. I hope the university administration don't take all their advice from Dabo S?

Clemson is a decent school, academically speaking, and, has a well-run athletic department. They also have a very passionate fanbase. The best in the ACC, IMHO. As for Dabo, you can bet that he did not say anything that the higher-ups at CU did not also believe, and, agree with. And, South Carolina as a state is growing at a quick rate themselves. Its also one of the South's best recruiting grounds. The University of South Carolina is riding a wave of success in FB that they've never seen before, and, might not see again for awhile, once Steve Spurrier retires. Long term, CU would be a good choice for any league planning on expanding.

Are they less attractive on their own, than they would be if they were paired with FSU? Yes, no doubt about it. But, if say Jim Delany wanted to get into the South in a MAJOR way, pairing CU with FSU would be a no-brainer. Both passionate fanbases, and, tough outs in their own arenas for basketball. And, both are well ahead of any B1G team in baseball.

 

[SouthronCross]

ND absolutely has a sweetheart deal with the ACC and ACC fans will find out soon enough. They always find the way to get what they want. They will help destabilize the ACC. How? For example, if schools threatened to leave the ACC unless ND became a full member, they wouldn't become a full member as they really don't care if schools defect because they are only looking for a home for their Olympic sports. An ACC that lost UNC, UVA, FSU, and Clemson replaced by UConn, Cincinnati, USF, and UCF is perfectly fine with ND as they don't care about ACC football.

No ACC team is going to threaten to leave the league based upon whether ND becomes a fulltime member, or, not. Thats crazy talk. If anything, the ACC being more successful on the gridiron would give them a bit of leverage with ND going forward.

UNC and UVA both had the opportunity to jump to the B1G back in 2011, and, both chose to stay. FSU and CU had every chance to push for Big 12 membership, but, chose to stay. ND's status has zero to do with either scenario.

By the way, ND replaced a Big 12 team in the Pinstripe Bowl and did not take a bowl slot from the ACC. The bowl deal with the ACC starts next year. And, ND, almost every time will jump an ACC school for any bowl.

Having access to ACC bowls means the ACC will have major say on where ND goes. Or, doesn't go.

 

[SouthronCross]

By your logic, I'm a terrorist who should be monitored by the CIA. Why? Because you can't find a link to the contrary on the internet.

I get that this is a message board that solely exists for the purpose of inference and conjecture. The reality -- and the point I was making to SouthernCross -- is that not having facts to back something up doesn't mean the inverse is true. It means the original assertion (or anecdote) is merely opinion and shouldn't be passed off as fact.

Others have already responded explaining how stupid it would've been for Loh to offer to pay without an arbitrator or judge making a final ruling, so I won't even get into the rest of your post.

As for your constant pushing of this "desperate" adjective, I can only hope one day to be as "desperate" as you claim Maryland was only to find myself in a significantly better position that I was before like Maryland did. ACC fans won't admit it, but the Big Ten at best is a better, richer, and more prestigious league than the ACC. On its absolute worst day, it's a lateral move.

Again, if a push or a better situation is the result of being desperate, then I hope to be desperate every single day of my life.

But, you miss one important thing about the B1G's money and prestige, vs the ACC's...the B1G has ALWAYS had more money, and prestige. That is nothing new. And, it will most likely always be true.

I have no trouble admitting that about the B1G, but truthfully, my attitude about that is 'So what? Who cares?' The ACC has managed to compete very well with them on the various fields of competition, in spite of their overwhelming financial advantages. Now, I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish Carolina could have a few extra millions coming in annually, but, we do ok with what we have now.

I do not know of any ACC fan who has been all that worried about that financial difference. I am sure our conference ADs are, but, like I said, we do pretty well with what we get already.

 

[UConnJim]

Clemson is a decent school, academically speaking, and, has a well-run athletic department. They also have a very passionate fanbase. The best in the ACC, IMHO. As for Dabo, you can bet that he did not say anything that the higher-ups at CU did not also believe, and, agree with. And, South Carolina as a state is growing at a quick rate themselves. Its also one of the South's best recruiting grounds. The University of South Carolina is riding a wave of success in FB that they've never seen before, and, might not see again for awhile, once Steve Spurrier retires. Long term, CU would be a good choice for any league planning on expanding.

Are they less attractive on their own, than they would be if they were paired with FSU? Yes, no doubt about it. But, if say Jim Delany wanted to get into the South in a MAJOR way, pairing CU with FSU would be a no-brainer. Both passionate fanbases, and, tough outs in their own arenas for basketball. And, both are well ahead of any B1G team in baseball.

Big 10 would not go after Clemson and FSU. UNC and UVA are another matter. I don't see either Clemson or FSU in the SEC either as they already have a strong presence in both states.

What I do see is FSU and Texas in a league together in the future as they are the two best schools outside of the Big 3 conferences of the B10, SEC, and Pac12. It could be in the Big 12 or in a new conference that jettisons the dead weight schools. Texas brings Texas Tech, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma St. FSU brings Clemson, GT, and Miami. The remaining 8 slots would go to UNC, NC St, UVA, VT, WVU, Duke, Kansas, and Kansas St. Great football with FSU, Texas, Oklahoma, VT, ... And great hoops with Kansas, UNC, and Duke. Great geographic footprint for a conference network: Virginia, North Carolina, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, West Virginia.

 

[SouthronCross]

Pretty much. But I think this is fine and is to be expected! Swafford has a league to protect. I wouldn't make it easy on MD either if i were in his position.

You are an ok guy, binge. Many Terp fans would never dare say what you did.

 

[SouthronCross]

Big 10 would not go after Clemson and FSU. UNC and UVA are another matter. I don't see either Clemson or FSU in the SEC either as they already have a strong presence in both states.

What I do see is FSU and Texas in a league together in the future as they are the two best schools outside of the Big 3 conferences of the B10, SEC, and Pac12. It could be in the Big 12 or in a new conference that jettisons the dead weight schools. Texas brings Texas Tech, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma St. FSU brings Clemson, GT, and Miami. The remaining 8 slots would go to UNC, NC St, UVA, VT, WVU, Duke, Kansas, and Kansas St. Great football with FSU, Texas, Oklahoma, VT, ... And great hoops with Kansas, UNC, and Duke. Great geographic footprint for a conference network: Virginia, North Carolina, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, West Virginia.

That'd be a darn good league, for sure. As good as any, and, it covers a large footprint, great for a league network.

But, at least in UNC's and UVA's cases, I am not sure they would leave Wake Forest behind. The NC and VA schools are a tight group, and, I cannot see them voluntarily leaving WFU behind.

And, what of Pitt, Syracuse, and, BC? Reform the old Big East under the AAC banner?

 

[SAMCRO]

Having access to ACC bowls means the ACC will have major say on where ND goes. Or, doesn't go.

SC, give it a few years and I promise you will know what we are talking about. Bowls will want ND over pretty much every ACC school if given the choice. There will be many years when a bowl selects ND over an ACC team with even tho the ACC team has a better record and ranked higher. The ACC doesn't appoint teams to bowls, the bowls select teams from the ACC. ND is still new to the ACC, go talk to some SyraPitt fans. They wanted ND gone from the BE as much as anyone else.

 

[SouthronCross]

SC, give it a few years and I promise you will know what we are talking about. Bowls will want ND over pretty much every ACC school if given the choice. There will be a years when a bowl selects ND over an ACC team with a better record and ranked higher b/c of ND's national fan base. The ACC doesn't appoint teams to bowls, the bowls select teams from the ACC. ND is still new to the ACC, go talk to some SyraPitt fans. They wanted ND gone from the BE as much as anyone else.

I get your point. I really do. But, to say Swofford won't fight them on a choice is wrong. The Chick-fil-A Bowl DID NOT WANT Duke to face Texas A&M. And, publicly said so. Duke went to the CFA Bowl. And, blew a golden opportunity to get a major win for the ACC.

Not that I was disappointed, mind you. I was yelling GIG 'EM AGGIES! all night long.

 

[bingethinker]

You are an ok guy, binge. Many Terp fans would never dare say what you did.

Haha....thanks. I'm a pretty objective guy who happens to run a business. I definitely understand why the ACC and Maryland are doing the dance they're doing. I'm really just ready to put these lawsuits behind and start the process of getting used to seeing a B1G logo on the courts and fields. It'll be weird and I'll certainly miss the ACC circa my first two years of ugrad (UMd, UVa, Duke, Carolina, Wake, State, Clemson, Tech, and FSU), but I've never really felt any connection to the Big East side of the ACC. We had a good thing going pre-2003.

 

[billybud]

That "lack of connection" that you espoused is the same sentiment that is rampant among FSU fans for certain ACC teams.

I think that is difficult to build tradition and history and having a geographically far flung conference makes that even more difficult.

Been playing BC for a decade now and, honestly, the random match up with USF brings much more interest.

 

[SubbaBub]

That "lack of connection" that you espoused is the same sentiment that is rampant among FSU fans for certain ACC teams.

I think that is difficult to build tradition and history and having a geographically far flung conference makes that even more difficult.

Been playing BC for a decade now and, honestly, the random match up with USF brings much more interest.

Which is the best answer for the ACC is and was always a north/south spilt. Image civil war reenactments before the CCG, maybe a few thrown beer bottles, that'd be some good TV right there.

But seriously, the old BE vs old ACC divisions would bring the right amount of hype provided there is enough crossover the allow for balanced recruiting access and cold weather games.

 

[btstimpy]

SC, give it a few years and I promise you will know what we are talking about. Bowls will want ND over pretty much every ACC school if given the choice. There will be many years when a bowl selects ND over an ACC team with even tho the ACC team has a better record and ranked higher. The ACC doesn't appoint teams to bowls, the bowls select teams from the ACC. ND is still new to the ACC, go talk to some SyraPitt fans. They wanted ND gone from the BE as much as anyone else.

This is nothing new. Bowls pick who they think will sell the most tickets and fill the most seats in their stadiums and hotel rooms in their town. That has always been the case. We've dealt with that for years. If it comes down to a bowl picking between UVA and Clemson or UVA and NCState, UVA never gets picked. UVA travels pretty well, but not as well as those others. Happens all the time, and I expect it to happen with Notre Dame. The good news is that half the bowl revenue from Notre Dame's appearance will go to the ACC just like any other ACC school participating in that bowl.

 

[btstimpy]

That "lack of connection" that you espoused is the same sentiment that is rampant among FSU fans for certain ACC teams.

I think that is difficult to build tradition and history and having a geographically far flung conference makes that even more difficult.

Been playing BC for a decade now and, honestly, the random match up with USF brings much more interest.

It doesn't have to be geographical. Heck we've played Maryland in 75 football games and 175 basketball games, and the upcoming visit by Syracuse basketball brings much more interest. Syracuse has never visited Charlottesville in basketball.

 

[btstimpy]

Which is the best answer for the ACC is and was always a north/south spilt. Image civil war reenactments before the CCG, maybe a few thrown beer bottles, that'd be some good TV right there.

But seriously, the old BE vs old ACC divisions would bring the right amount of hype provided there is enough crossover the allow for balanced recruiting access and cold weather games.

I prefer the 4 PODS in a 16 team league where there is much more scheduling flexibility. It would be easier to pair up geographically close rivals with that too. I don't want a North/South split for 7 team divisions.

In order to get what I prefer, the ACC will need to add Notre Dame and one other, or forget Notre Dame and add 2 more. The ACC doesn't seem to want to do either at the moment. But things can change.

 

[NickyNewark]

Clemson is a decent school, academically speaking, and, has a well-run athletic department. They also have a very passionate fanbase. The best in the ACC, IMHO. As for Dabo, you can bet that he did not say anything that the higher-ups at CU did not also believe, and, agree with. And, South Carolina as a state is growing at a quick rate themselves. Its also one of the South's best recruiting grounds. The University of South Carolina is riding a wave of success in FB that they've never seen before, and, might not see again for awhile, once Steve Spurrier retires. Long term, CU would be a good choice for any league planning on expanding.

Are they less attractive on their own, than they would be if they were paired with FSU? Yes, no doubt about it. But, if say Jim Delany wanted to get into the South in a MAJOR way, pairing CU with FSU would be a no-brainer. Both passionate fanbases, and, tough outs in their own arenas for basketball. And, both are well ahead of any B1G team in baseball.

I don't see the major conferences going after the #2 team in any one state? The B1G chasing GT was a smokescreen IMO to create chaos/worry in the ACC IMO and I know that GT gets more interest/attention in the NY/NJ area as an "acceptable" school than Clemson.Also the rural image aspect don't help CU.

 

[btstimpy]

I don't see the major conferences going after the #2 team in any one state? The B1G chasing GT was a smokescreen IMO to create chaos/worry in the ACC IMO and I know that GT gets more interest/attention in the NY/NJ area as an "acceptable" school than Clemson.Also the rural image aspect don't help CU.

Clemson isn't the #2 team in South Carolina. Only recently with Spurrier has South Carolina been able to beat Clemson in football. Clemson has a football national championship. Just won a BCS Bowl this year. South Carolina will never sniff a BCS bowl let alone win one. The stadiums are the same size and full. And Clemson basketball dominates South Carolina basketball.

Now Georgia Tech is #2 in Georgia. Georgia Tech isn't interested in the B1G anyway, and Georgia Tech left the SEC. They aren't going back.

 

[billybud]

"and I know that GT gets more interest/attention in the NY/NJ area as an "acceptable" school than Clemson."

Huh? Of course GT is a top ranked engineering school...

but as a National University, Clemson is ranked in the same general range as UConn by US News & WR (within five places).

But you may be right. Clemson is a football school and is more SEC like then ACC like (as is FSU). Maybe that isn't as "acceptable" in the NY/NJ area.

 

[NickyNewark]

Clemson isn't the #2 team in South Carolina. Only recently with Spurrier has South Carolina been able to beat Clemson in football. Clemson has a football national championship. Just won a BCS Bowl this year. South Carolina will never sniff a BCS bowl let alone win one. The stadiums are the same size and full. And Clemson basketball dominates South Carolina basketball.

Now Georgia Tech is #2 in Georgia. Georgia Tech isn't interested in the B1G anyway, and Georgia Tech left the SEC. They aren't going back.

My niece lives in Columbia,SC and is a Clemson fan and always complains "its tough being a CU fan in SC and elsewhere due to being percieved as the #2 team in SC,,,,,and remember SC is in the SEC whose #1 in every one of the Southern states!! Thats just a fact and like I said I think GT/FSU was a smokescreen or to create instabilitie/unrest in the ACC!?! Just my suspicion.....I don't think the B1G will add in most cases anything but state schools or ND type brands and I don't see Clemson as that?

 

[NickyNewark]

"and I know that GT gets more interest/attention in the NY/NJ area as an "acceptable" school than Clemson."

Huh? Of course GT is a top ranked engineering school...

but as a National University, Clemson is ranked in the same general range as UConn by US News & WR (within five places).

But you may be right. Clemson is a football school and is more SEC like then ACC like (as is FSU). Maybe that isn't as "acceptable" in the NY/NJ area.

Perception.....Clemson is not an FSU type heavyweight outside of SC/ACC....oops WV just scored again.

 

[btstimpy]

My niece lives in Columbia,SC and is a Clemson fan and always complains "its tough being a CU fan in SC and elsewhere due to being percieved as the #2 team in SC,,,,,and remember SC is in the SEC whose #1 in every one of the Southern states!! Thats just a fact and like I said I think GT/FSU was a smokescreen or to create instabilitie/unrest in the ACC!?! Just my suspicion.....I don't think the B1G will add in most cases anything but state schools or ND type brands and I don't see Clemson as that?

It might be tough in Columbia being a Clemson fan. But it isn't tough in Greenville/Spartanburg, Florence, Charleston, or Myrtle Beach being a Clemson fan. I can see Columbia though. Everywhere you look, you'll see Gamecocks. SEC has its fan and places sure. I just lived in Miami for 8 years and hardly heard about SEC in South Florida. I only met 1 Gator fan, and he was visiting from Tampa. I actually met lots of Boston College fans there. The SEC certainly isn't #1 there, and that's about as south as one can get geographically. I did live in Atlanta too for 2 years, and I did hear about SEC there, but also ACC with GT.

 

[btstimpy]

Perception.....Clemson is not an FSU type heavyweight outside of SC/ACC....oops WV just scored again.

You can add Ohio to that mix. They will see Clemson as a heavyweight or certainly should.