Maryland’s $157 million counterclaim: ACC recruited B1G schools

[DarthGrumpy]

I think that the B1G still desire a much larger east coast presence, and, that UMD and RU are a way to sort of get their feet wet. At this point, at least, having a little east coast presence is better than having none at all.

TBT, Delany has multiple ways he can go. He could still try and pry UNC and UVA loose from the ACC, but, thats a longer term proposition now that the ACC has its own GOR. Or, he could go and get Oklahoma and Kansas from the Big 12, which would all but end that league. Or, he could be really bold, and, grab Missouri from the SEC, and, maybe get a single Big 12 team, like OU.

Just thinking aloud...

My greatest wish is in the short-term, the XII releases West Virginia from it's agreement and WV joins the ACC to replace Louisville who leaves for the SEC slot that Missouri opens when they jump for there better cultural match with the B1G who then adds UConn to get to 16. The XII then replaces WVU with BYU and adds USF and UCF (sorry Cincy, nothing personal; but, they do go ACC later). That fixes a lot of problems for everyone. Later, Texas blows up the XII and the B1G adds Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and ND (B1G with teams in NYC, DC, and Texas outweighs disdain for B1G). UConn ends up in a B1G 'East' pod made up of 1) UConn, 2) Rutgers, 3) Maryland, 4) Penn St, 5) Notre Dame.

A few hours later, the alarm goes off, I take a cold shower, and UConn is in the AAC.

 

[bingethinker]

My greatest wish is in the short-term, the XII releases West Virginia from it's agreement and WV joins the ACC to replace Louisville who leaves for the SEC slot that Missouri opens when they jump for there better cultural match with the B1G who then adds UConn to get to 16. The XII then replaces WVU with BYU and adds USF and UCF (sorry Cincy, nothing personal; but, they do go ACC later). That fixes a lot of problems for everyone. Later, Texas blows up the XII and the B1G adds Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and ND (B1G with teams in NYC, DC, and Texas outweighs disdain for B1G). UConn ends up in a B1G 'East' pod made up of 1) UConn, 2) Rutgers, 3) Maryland, 4) Penn St, 5) Notre Dame.

A few hours later, the alarm goes off, I take a cold shower, and UConn is in the AAC.

I don't want Notre Dame anywhere near the Big Ten. Let the ACC have its 5 games.

The ideal group for a 20-member Big Ten Conference is:

B1G East: Connecticut, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, North Carolina, Ohio State, Penn State, Rutgers, Virginia
B1G West: Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Nebraska, Northwestern, Oklahoma, Purdue, Texas, Wisconsin

As wacky as that configuration looks, I'd bet money it'd happen before Notre Dame would join the B1G.

 

[CL82]

I agree with Fishy that it is tough to see a move that makes sense with the pieces that are still on the board. I also know that the conference realignment moves to date have pretty much been unforeseen. That's my (desperate, perhaps unrealistic) hope, that:

1) there is a move coming;
2) it moves Connecticut to the a better conference (hopefully the B1G); and
3) it happens before the Big East money that we are due runs out.

I don't think that it is a particularly realistic hope, but at least it is hope.

 

[btstimpy]

You should add the school who won the field hockey and women's basketball national champs to that list. We can forward inquiries to the appropriate folks.

I'm game. If we can get the football contingent in the league more comfortable with that program, these women's programs are gravy. I'm all about Director's Cup. The UConn Men's basketball isn't #1 at the moment, but it has been there in the past decade. I like the fit.

 

[btstimpy]

Here's the rub for future expansion of any ilk....there aren't enough loose ends left.

If the Big 12 wants to expand, there's Cincinnati and nothing. I doubt they're going to want to go slumming for the fourth or fifth best programs in Florida and Brigham Young is like adding a square peg in a world of round holes.

The ACC wants to expand, there's UConn and nothing. Forget Cincinnati.

If the Big Ten wants to expand, there's UConn and nothing. Missouri would have to be pretty happy with their current digs and everything else is encumbered with a grant of rights.

In the next couple of years, this is true. But if the sport of football continues to drive the support it does in the psyche of the American Public, it will translate into more expansion. A lot depends on how the American Athletic Conference does along with the Mountain West and Conference USA. We're seeing teams enter Conference USA and the Sunbelt that weren't around 5 years ago at FBS level. Twenty years ago I don't think USF or UCF had football teams. We've had Big Ten people talking about SUNY Buffalo on this board and others. Who knows where this will end up. I don't think it is static. As long as there is an appetite for more, there will be more.

 

[Fishy]

Perhaps you're right, stimp, and I sure as hell hope you are.

But here is my worry....

Expansion had a purpose - it was a consolidation of power and money.

The ACC set out to destroy the Big East as a competitor and they did. The Big Ten might have been setting out to destroy the ACC and failed....but in any event, the networks have put away the checkbooks and the P5 conferences have finished erecting their security walls.

The stopping point might be artificial, but it's still real. Those inside on the walls are dealing with $20-30M a year more in television revenue than those outside the walls. They've consolidated bowls and they will move towards nine game schedules. And now they are proposing changing rules to exploit their advantages in exposure and revenue - the idea is to suffocate everything outside the P5.

Schools that were able to rise under the old rules will now find themselves running out of oxygen - and that's the point of all this. Not sure there will be anything left to expand with in ten years.

 

[billybud]

I think that Fishy may be right....

Schools could move up in football and did...there was a stair step...move from non FBS into CUSA, MWC, etc...step up into the Big East.

Then, get snatched out of the Big East by the ACC (who had to be perceived as the next rung on the ladder or teams wouldn't be snatched).

There has been, of late, an FBS proliferation. Teams like UAB, Middle Tennessee, FIU, North Texas, Texas San Antonio, Texas State, South Alabama, Georgia State and others...all moved to FBS.

There came to be a fiction...that all teams in FBS all really played for the same prize and were really in the same league.

It became a league that ranged from the Alabama's and Ohio State's of the football world to the Georgia State's and Middle Tennessee's.

It became an unwieldy fiction. Matches between the Alabama's and Ohio State's vs Texas State or Middle Tennessee drew little public interest, and less media dollars. And, while there could be a rare good game out of these matches, the non BCS teams, over the BCS era, lost 81% of their games with BCS teams.

There is now a movement to draw back in as the P5 and maybe break away... as Fishy has pointed out, to maximize resources. The poker players at the big table will have most of the chips and there will be fewer paths to move up to the Big Table.

While I think that Fishy is right in the short term, in the very long run, there will be some movement up.

As teams and demographics change slowly over time, there will be emerging powerhouses and submerging former P5 teams. And there will be demand for the play of the emergents.

 

[Sea Goat]

Any process that resulted in WVU, Rutgers, Syra...., Maryland, Pitt and Louisville ending up safely ensconced in P-5 conferences and UConn left out is a bull$h!t process.
Please no more paternalistic about how UConn and the AAC has to mind their Ps and Qs and perform well to have any chance in the next beauty contest. Re: CR, the ACC has sold its soul (and academic standards) and gave in to the pathetic, revengeful lot trolling around Chestnut Hill. Long term, it will harm you - ACC. We'll get out of this purgatory sometime (an appropriate reference to satisfy the two-faced padres AT Bf...ingC). In another tip of the cap to the high and mighty hypocrites, I PRAY it's the B1G.

 

[billybud]

A lot of emotion laden posts on the subject because fandom can be a painful experience

Yes UConn was left out....the "process" was not a meritocracy.

There were multiple factors that interplayed.

One might, while railing, wonder why the Big Ten took Maryland and Rutgers over UConn. Better football? basketball? branding? markets? There is no single thing that I could put my finger on as an uninformed fan.

 

[billybud]

Several Big Ten AD's have been on the record about the Maryland/Rutgers move as a Penn State "stabilizer".

The latest was Ohio State's AD...

Q: When you look at Rutgers and Maryland, they haven’t set the world afire and Rutgers has had its issues with coaches and its AD. Do you still feel those are good additions?

A: I do. We could have gone a number of ways. I think it was great for the league and really good for Penn State. People haven’t focused on that enough. Penn State was sitting out there like an appendage. Anybody could have plucked them. The ACC could have plucked them.

 

[Sea Goat]

A lot of emotion laden posts on the subject because fandom can be a painful experience

Yes UConn was left out....the "process" was not a meritocracy.

There were multiple factors that interplayed.

One might, while railing, wonder why the Big Ten took Maryland and Rutgers over UConn. Better football? basketball? branding? markets? There is no single thing that I could put my finger on as an uninformed fan.

Emotion laden posts? More paternalism? No thanks.

Maryland and Rutgers... Better football? BB? Branding? Markets? Doubt it - maybe it was AAU afterall...

Getting back to your bailiwick - the ACC, no question a ton of resentment and revenge involved. Add to that the ACC selling out academically, it was curtains for UConn.

 

[specialisthusky]

A lot of emotion laden posts on the subject because fandom can be a painful experience

Yes UConn was left out....the "process" was not a meritocracy.

There were multiple factors that interplayed.

One might, while railing, wonder why the Big Ten took Maryland and Rutgers over UConn. Better football? basketball? branding? markets? There is no single thing that I could put my finger on as an uninformed fan.

AAU

 

[billybud]

Emotion laden posts? More paternalism? No thanks.

yeah...anything I post will be labeled. I know.

But the posts do display a lot of emotion....it is not just a cerebral exercise to a fan.

Please, if my posts offend you, scroll on by. It is not intentional.

 

[Sea Goat]

Several Big Ten AD's have been on the record about the Maryland/Rutgers move as a Penn State "stabilizer".

The latest was Ohio State's AD...

Q: When you look at Rutgers and Maryland, they haven’t set the world afire and Rutgers has had its issues with coaches and its AD. Do you still feel those are good additions?

A: I do. We could have gone a number of ways. I think it was great for the league and really good for Penn State. People haven’t focused on that enough. Penn State was sitting out there like an appendage. Anybody could have plucked them. The ACC could have plucked them.

Didn't Maryland jump from the ACC to the B1G? Who ended up getting plucked? The ACC?
(And I really don't give a pluck because UConn was left out!)

 

[billybud]

The question was..."why not UConn"...not where did the chosen teams come from.

The Big Ten had their reasons...just as the ACC had their reasons..

 

[SubbaBub]

Several Big Ten AD's have been on the record about the Maryland/Rutgers move as a Penn State "stabilizer".

The latest was Ohio State's AD...

Q: When you look at Rutgers and Maryland, they haven’t set the world afire and Rutgers has had its issues with coaches and its AD. Do you still feel those are good additions?

A: I do. We could have gone a number of ways. I think it was great for the league and really good for Penn State. People haven’t focused on that enough. Penn State was sitting out there like an appendage. Anybody could have plucked them. The ACC could have plucked them.

This is rear view BS. PSU is or isn't staying in the B1G because RU and MD are coming to Happy Valley every few years.

It has been and will continue to be about revenue and how to make sure you have more than the other conferences to protect your league.

Each conference answered that question differently. ACC needed FB teams, the B12 needed warm bodies to get back to 10 teams, the B1G needed TV markets and the SEC needed entry into TX.

In each case, UConn was not the best answer to the specific question being asked. ACC's poor judgement is included.

 

[SAMCRO]

One might, while railing, wonder why the Big Ten took Maryland and Rutgers over UConn. Better football? basketball? branding? markets? There is no single thing that I could put my finger on as an uninformed fan.

1. Markets (NYC and Balt/DC)
2. they had AAU status at time of invite (as did Nebraska)
neither was a national brand in any major sport (unlike the Nebraska move), this was primarily driven by # of cable subscribers. Not necessarily eyeballs tuning in to watch, but homes with cable boxes/dish's

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Perhaps you're right, stimp, and I sure as hell hope you are.

But here is my worry....

Expansion had a purpose - it was a consolidation of power and money.

The ACC set out to destroy the Big East as a competitor and they did. The Big Ten might have been setting out to destroy the ACC and failed....but in any event, the networks have put away the checkbooks and the P5 conferences have finished erecting their security walls.

The stopping point might be artificial, but it's still real. Those inside on the walls are dealing with $20-30M a year more in television revenue than those outside the walls. They've consolidated bowls and they will move towards nine game schedules. And now they are proposing changing rules to exploit their advantages in exposure and revenue - the idea is to suffocate everything outside the P5.

Schools that were able to rise under the old rules will now find themselves running out of oxygen - and that's the point of all this. Not sure there will be anything left to expand with in ten years.

I completely understand your position. I certainly hope you are wrong.
But it wouldn't be the first time greed has led to a bad end.
The long term implications of that scenario will lead to the ultimate destruction of football.
Expansion occurs as a result of inclusion not exclusion. Kids will sacrifice their bodies to improve their economic future. They have for years even before the NFL.
The point was to use football to better yourself.
The fertile grounds of football talent ( high school football will dry up with limited opportunity for players to advance). If 60 colleges are playing a sport is that really a viable sport.Football is already under scrutiny at that level. That's 600 scholarship opportunities yearly. That's a sport that just marginalized itself.
The P5 run the risk of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Some other sport will probably fill the vacuum. or if the NFL wants to remain viable they create their own alternative to the current model.

 

[pj]

I think that Fishy may be right....

There has been, of late, an FBS proliferation. Teams like UAB, Middle Tennessee, FIU, North Texas, Texas San Antonio, Texas State, South Alabama, Georgia State and others...all moved to FBS.

There came to be a fiction...that all teams in FBS all really played for the same prize and were really in the same league.

It became a league that ranged from the Alabama's and Ohio State's of the football world to the Georgia State's and Middle Tennessee's.

It became an unwieldy fiction. Matches between the Alabama's and Ohio State's vs Texas State or Middle Tennessee drew little public interest, and less media dollars. And, while there could be a rare good game out of these matches, the non BCS teams, over the BCS era, lost 81% of their games with BCS teams.

There is now a movement to draw back in as the P5 and maybe break away... as Fishy has pointed out, to maximize resources. The poker players at the big table will have most of the chips and there will be fewer paths to move up to the Big Table.

If this is the dynamic, then UConn will be fine. It has a large audience and market, dominating the state of Connecticut and gathering significant interest from New York and the rest of New England. Thanks to Connecticut fan support, it will have resources to compete -- not necessarily equal resources to the P5 schools, but competitive resources. And if UConn can capture a larger share of the Connecticut-New England-New York fan interest, then that financial gap will close.

Acquiring UConn media rights added about $24 million annually to SNY's revenue. UConn if it marketed its own rights intelligently could get $10 mn per year for them, even in the AAC.

But assigning all the rights to the AAC and having them market the league's rights ends up averaging revenue with East Carolina, Tulsa, etc, and reducing media income to a paltry sum. UConn is going to have to start thinking of itself as the equivalent of an independent, like BYU or Notre Dame, and developing those marketing skills. Even though we will be in the AAC, which is actually not a bad conference in terms of football or men's basketball level of competition, we have to recover our media rights from the league and learn how to market them.

The AAC is a decent football and basketball league that UConn has the potential to dominate; and with financial independence, UConn can be financially competitive with P5 conferences. That is what it has to aim for. If the Huskies succeed at that, sooner or later a P5 conference will want to bring UConn in. Probably sooner, as there will be pressure to sabotage the AAC in the same way the Big East was sabotaged, and it will be easy to make the case that a UConn which can generate $10 mn+ in media rights in the AAC could generate $25-30 mn for the ACC or B1G.

 

[btstimpy]

AAU

The Big Ten schools were already in the AAU with Maryland and Rutgers. They could collaberate as much as they want through the AAU in Research. Why subject all of their sports fans to boring football games and basketball games in the case of Rutgers over AAU? In the case of Maryland, the Big Ten threw a lot of money at them and sold them on the overall scheme and the projection of the money it would generate. Maryland is in financial trouble with its athletics department, and the decision maker has no Maryland culture or history to draw upon or even athletics acumen, and he ignored everyone else's around him. In fact one of his quotes is "I don't know much about athletics. I know they play games, but that's about it" - Dr. Wallace Loh, Maryland President.

AAU was an excuse. It was not the reason. The Big Ten Network thinks it can fleece the Cable Subscribers in New Jersey and Maryland to create revenue. The Big Ten did not think that the odds of this working were good enough to make that move at the time they added Nebraska. But when Notre Dame joined the ACC, the Big Ten got nervous and made this move over fear of losing Penn State. The odds of this working are no better now than when the Big Ten added Nebraska, but they have now rolled the dice on it. They may hope that the odds might be better because Fox bought YES. We'll see. But we are still talking about putting Rutgers basketball and football teams on television hoping millions will watch or at least hundreds of thousands. The Maryland case will be interesting to watch play out as well. They drive more interest in basketball, but it will be interesting to watch if they continue to in the Big Ten.

 

[btstimpy]

I think that Fishy may be right....

Schools could move up in football and did...there was a stair step...move from non FBS into CUSA, MWC, etc...step up into the Big East.

Then, get snatched out of the Big East by the ACC (who had to be perceived as the next rung on the ladder or teams wouldn't be snatched).

There has been, of late, an FBS proliferation. Teams like UAB, Middle Tennessee, FIU, North Texas, Texas San Antonio, Texas State, South Alabama, Georgia State and others...all moved to FBS.

There came to be a fiction...that all teams in FBS all really played for the same prize and were really in the same league.

It became a league that ranged from the Alabama's and Ohio State's of the football world to the Georgia State's and Middle Tennessee's.

It became an unwieldy fiction. Matches between the Alabama's and Ohio State's vs Texas State or Middle Tennessee drew little public interest, and less media dollars. And, while there could be a rare good game out of these matches, the non BCS teams, over the BCS era, lost 81% of their games with BCS teams.

There is now a movement to draw back in as the P5 and maybe break away... as Fishy has pointed out, to maximize resources. The poker players at the big table will have most of the chips and there will be fewer paths to move up to the Big Table.

While I think that Fishy is right in the short term, in the very long run, there will be some movement up.

As teams and demographics change slowly over time, there will be emerging powerhouses and submerging former P5 teams. And there will be demand for the play of the emergents.

Short Term the P5 want to consolidate and leverage their position to make it difficult for others to catch up or break through. It will work short term.

But if the public appetite continues to grow for college football, in the long term there will be more supply to fill the demand. I even watched MACtion on Tuesday and Wednesday nights last November. I'd have never thought to watch MAC conference games 10 years ago. With Fox adding 2 sports networks, CBS adding one, and NBC adding one, these 4 other networks are going to want football games to show all week. Schools, some I've never heard of, are rushing into the Sunbelt and C-USA. The WAC might even return.

I just see the sport growing. I don't see it consolidating as much as the P5 want it to. That's going to continue to create opportunity for schools especially ones like UConn who does well across the entire Athletic Department portfolio beyond football. The legal battles around concussions and safety might be an obstacle, but there may be enough money to blow right by that obstacle too.

 

[SubbaBub]

The AAU is a club, not a SAT score. We have better credentials than a good chunk of AAU members. Like in athletics, we only require an invitation.

 

[bobbyinaz]

If this is the dynamic, then UConn will be fine. It has a large audience and market, dominating the state of Connecticut and gathering significant interest from New York and the rest of New England. Thanks to Connecticut fan support, it will have resources to compete -- not necessarily equal resources to the P5 schools, but competitive resources. And if UConn can capture a larger share of the Connecticut-New England-New York fan interest, then that financial gap will close.

Acquiring UConn media rights added about $24 million annually to SNY's revenue. UConn if it marketed its own rights intelligently could get $10 mn per year for them, even in the AAC.

But assigning all the rights to the AAC and having them market the league's rights ends up averaging revenue with East Carolina, Tulsa, etc, and reducing media income to a paltry sum. UConn is going to have to start thinking of itself as the equivalent of an independent, like BYU or Notre Dame, and developing those marketing skills. Even though we will be in the AAC, which is actually not a bad conference in terms of football or men's basketball level of competition, we have to recover our media rights from the league and learn how to market them.

The AAC is a decent football and basketball league that UConn has the potential to dominate; and with financial independence, UConn can be financially competitive with P5 conferences. That is what it has to aim for. If the Huskies succeed at that, sooner or later a P5 conference will want to bring UConn in. Probably sooner, as there will be pressure to sabotage the AAC in the same way the Big East was sabotaged, and it will be easy to make the case that a UConn which can generate $10 mn+ in media rights in the AAC could generate $25-30 mn for the ACC or B1G.

Can we please stop with the fantasy that the AAC, or any other conference, is going to let UConn compete as a member but let it sell its' media rights on an independent basis. IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

 

[Husky68]

Can we please stop with the fantasy that the AAC, or any other conference, is going to let UConn compete as a member but let it sell its' media rights on an independent basis. IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

Yeah, even Boise State knows that!

 

[btstimpy]

Several Big Ten AD's have been on the record about the Maryland/Rutgers move as a Penn State "stabilizer".

The latest was Ohio State's AD...

Q: When you look at Rutgers and Maryland, they haven’t set the world afire and Rutgers has had its issues with coaches and its AD. Do you still feel those are good additions?

A: I do. We could have gone a number of ways. I think it was great for the league and really good for Penn State. People haven’t focused on that enough. Penn State was sitting out there like an appendage. Anybody could have plucked them. The ACC could have plucked them.

The rest of that answer was more interesting to me. Barry Alvarez already explained the fear of losing Penn State last year.

A: "The other one was the lock up a little bit of the East Coast with television. We’re doing that. We’re going to Navy next year. We’re playing in the Ravens stadium.
Yes, we’re still happy with (having added them). Do we need to help Maryland and Rutgers get better? No doubt. In football, obviously. Their Olympic sports are phenomenal. We have to help them with football and basketball."

This is one hell of a project to ask the other members of the Big Ten to take on. How does he propose to accomplish this? Perfect opportunity for the reporter to ask a follow up. Obviously Gene Smith knows that the league has added bottom feeders. Anyway, these are the interesting comments.

For UConn fans, where basketball "Help" isn't required, why take Rutgers over UConn again?

 

[billybud]

This is from an FSU "insider" who has shown that he has close ties to the program/ACC..,He has had some good info in the past

Take this for whatever you think that it is worth....I don't know how a GOR would play into this...

"... from recent meetings on Tobacco Road.

ACC Stuff
Expect ND full time by 2017, with the NBC contract with ND still in place. They would not be fully supplemented by the ACC media deal, till the NBC deal is done. For instance, if they get the estimated ~12M from NBC, and ABC is paying ~24M per school, ND would only get ~12M of that, or the difference.


ND wants a game in Florida every year, which means FSU and Miami would be two nearly certain conference games. It's also possible that an ACC team might play them on a neutral field in Florida. This is one of the reasons for the proposed reshuffling of the conference, and who plays in the ACCCG.


Big question is who the 16th ACC team will be. No one seems to lead this race.


ACC Bowl payouts are changing as well, but nothing is finalized yet.

FSU obviously has the most juice in the conference right now.

National Stuff


The B1G, PAC-12, SEC, ACC, Big 12 Conferences are maneuvering for the Super 5 for the playoffs, and if you're not in one of those, you're on the outside looking in.


There will be a pot of cash that the top five will draw from, which will bring the payouts to within 15% or so of each other."

 

[The Viking]

we are not getting into the ACC. The fact there is no clear leader for the 16th spot tells us all we need to know (if this guy is to be believed)

The question is who outside of UConn gets in. Cincinnati?

 

[billybud]

I, for one, have a difficult time believing that ND would join a conference...

Maybe, just maybe...if the P5 can lock out non members from the playoff...they might though.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I, for one, have a difficult time believing that ND would join a conference...

Maybe, just maybe...if the P5 can lock out non members from the playoff...they might though.

I tend to think that's the only way that ND
joins a conference.

The question then becomes why haven't the P5 exerted their influence over ND? I understand an individual conference bending over for them as it benefits the league, but the 4 other leagues? No idea.

Assumming this is true ( obviously who knows) and their is an open spot at 16, I think it comes down to UConn, Cincinnati, UCF (though I think FSU/Miami would potentially veto that).

Essentially whoever emerges as the best AAC Football program over the next few years has an advantage, basketball, academics and markets be damned.

 

[billybud]

There will be only four open playoff spots for five P5 Champions... one, at the least, will not play.

I wonder how the the P5 conferences will feel if an independent takes another of the playoff slots .

Without a CCG,and playing one less game, Notre Dame might need an undefeated season to get a slot.