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LOL Pats Fans - it never ends

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Deepster said:
Again. They cheated. Got caught. Got punished. Is it really more complex than that?
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that's called begging the question, a very common argumentative fallacy, especially on the WWW
 
So, this morning, I just learned that Gostkowski was also investigated. Apparently there were complaints about deflated kicking balls both in the Ravens game and in the Colts game. Colts also claimed there were deflated balls in the season game at Indy. The ghost of Jim McNally must have done that. When Wells investigated, it found the kicking balls are treated differently, unpacked by the refs, new balls, and held by an NFL employee the whole time. So Gostkowski wasn't dinged.

But, here's the kicker. Gostkowski refused to give over his cell phone as well. And he received no punishment.

This puts the lie to the idea that Brady's punishment has something to do with compliance. It's all about the deflation of the balls at the AFCCG. The Wells people absolute lied that the balls were tampered with. Out and out lies. Only Peter King and Mike Florio have picked up on this so far.
 
Question. Deflated footballs might be easier to throw and catch but how about kick offs and field goals ?
 
John Teti said:
The league is intent to argue that Deflategate, our collective descent into sports-chatter hell, was borne from principled respect for the rules and isn’t about the ruination of a proven winner. But if you’re going to take that view, then you have to explain why a similar stink wasn’t raised, for instance, when both the Minnesota Vikings and Carolina Panthers were found to be heating their balls on the sidelines during a chilly game they played against each other last November. While almost everyone enjoys warm balls, this sort of equipment manipulation is against NFL rules, which raises the question: Why do the Vikings and Panthers have such a deep-seated disregard for fair play? Are they nihilists? They’re probably nihilists.

It’s also hard to figure—as far as integrity is concerned—why a multi-million-dollar investigation didn’t spring from the godhead of NFL commissioner Roger Goodell after the San Diego Chargers were caught applying a sticky, grip-enhancing substance to towels in 2012. Can you imagine befouling a league-approved towel in this manner? It’s almost as if the Chargers don’t even believe in society! When officials noticed the infraction, the San Diego staff tried to conceal their sticky towels, and for this the NFL fined the team $20,000, because Goodell wanted to get a real close look at the Chargers’ sticky towels.

Aside from the fine for hiding their shame, though, there wasn’t any punishment for the Chargers, nor for the Vikings and Panthers. (ESPN’s superb Patriots beat reporter, Mike Reiss, raised this in a Sunday column.) Unlike the Patriots, those teams’ infractions were not construed to threaten the fabric of our nation’s value system. Roger’s crew just told the rule-bending knuckleheads to cut it out already, you scamps! “What a bunch of dirty tricksters!” the nation agreed. Yet when the Patriots got caught deflating their balls, that was one masturbation metaphor too many. “Cheating is cheating!” the partisans cried, knowing that this particular tautology granted them sports-debate superpowers. (Try it yourself!)

What’s the difference between the Vikings/Panthers/Chargers and the Patriots? The Patriots have won a Super Bowl, and also, their name has three syllables. Now, it could be that the NFL has it out for teams with three syllables—they’re so much harder to pronounce. But I think this is more about the Super Bowls: four of them, won by New England, all recently. It isn’t a principled stand about the sanctity of the rules, nor is it even about the Patriots specifically. It’s about any single team winning a lot, which is a continued irritation for the majority of fans—not to mention the majority of the league’s owners.
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This article gets to the heart of why I think this whole thing is a joke. It felt manufactured back before the Super Bowl, and it especially so with the suspension of Brady. There's no way he gets 4 games after the appeal.

Feels like a way to grab headlines in the off season.
 
jibsey said:
Question. Deflated footballs might be easier to throw and catch but how about kick offs and field goals ?
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It all depends on the QB. Easier to catch yes, but not to throw. Aaron Rodgers prefers to throw overinflated. Sports Science on ESPN did a test and it found that underinflated balls dont travel as far and also they don't move as fast. So Rodgers has the advantage of throwing balls that travel further and faster.

Here's the thing though. The difference between a 10 PSI ball and a 15 PSI ball is about an inch over 50 yards, and a couple milliseconds over that distance. I'm sure it's easier to catch a slightly deflated ball. But then again, when you play in cold weather, no matter what, your ball is always going to be deflated. And there's absolutely nothing that the NFL can do about it.
 
tzznandrew said:
This article gets to the heart of why I think this whole thing is a joke. It felt manufactured back before the Super Bowl, and it especially so with the suspension of Brady. There's no way he gets 4 games after the appeal.

Feels like a way to grab headlines in the off season.
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I tend to think this is just Goodell in hot water for botching another investigation. This was a sting that went awry because the brainiacs in the NFLs security team picked up a ball that measured 11.75 (the intercepted ball) and thought it had been deflated. They had no idea about the science. So the whole sting operation turned into a debacle and made major news around the world.

That's the reason Goodell had to come down hard. His job depended on it. This is usually the reason people do things. The guy makes $40m a year.
 
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Bottom line:

-Pats had an equipment manager known as the 'deflator'.
-Brady lied by saying he didn't know who the equipment managers were when it's clear they interact with him.
-Brady refused to cooperate with the investigation.

That's enough to suspend him 2 games in my eyes (which is what I suspect the suspension will be after appeal) They probably suspended him 4 games knowing it would be appealed and reduced.

The rest is just bullshit, honestly. Patriot fans are unbelievably dense.
 
jibsey said:
Question. Deflated footballs might be easier to throw and catch but how about kick offs and field goals ?
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I have not kicked to many footballs, just soccer balls; but, based on that experience I would think kickers want the ball to be inflated on the higher side as it provides a firmer surface to drive against and better aerodynamics (kicked balls go a lot higher-up than passes). I mean in rec soccer with the little kids, we deflate the balls a bit to prevent injury to the kicker and the (usually) unintended target. Only exception is in very cold air when kicking a full inflated leather ball of any type feels like kicking a cement block.
 
upstater said:
Except for the fact that the balls weren't tampered with, you're right.
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Agree to disagree. I don't buy the weather excuse....and neither did the NFL. Tom and The Deflator didn't get away with this one.
 
UChusky916 said:
Bottom line:

-Pats had an equipment manager known as the 'deflator'.
-Brady lied by saying he didn't know who the equipment managers were when it's clear they interact with him.
-Brady refused to cooperate with the investigation.

That's enough to suspend him 2 games in my eyes (which is what I suspect the suspension will be after appeal) They probably suspended him 4 games knowing it would be appealed and reduced.

The rest is just bull , honestly. Patriot fans are unbelievably dense.
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After the texts came out, I feel that the NFL was going to hit Brady for lying any maybe suspend him for a pre-season game. As the Pats equipment folks clearly were playing with the balls, I knew they would get a fine. A 4 game suspension for doing something that most other QB's do along with the loss of two draft picks feel excessive, even for a me, a rabid anti-Kraft guy. Maybe this is make-up for prior transgressions? I just can't see who/why the Pats penalize a player a team for these shenanigans more than they suspend players for domestic violence and a lot more serious crimes.
 
UChusky916 said:
Bottom line:

-Pats had an equipment manager known as the 'deflator'.
-Brady lied by saying he didn't know who the equipment managers were when it's clear they interact with him.
-Brady refused to cooperate with the investigation.

That's enough to suspend him 2 games in my eyes (which is what I suspect the suspension will be after appeal) They probably suspended him 4 games knowing it would be appealed and reduced.

The rest is just bull , honestly. Patriot fans are unbelievably dense.
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All your points are actually wrong. The deflator thing happened in texts from May. And it was the NFL assigned ball guy, not Patriots equipment guy. Brady did not say he didn't know the equipment managers. He knows Jastremski well. He was asked about James McNally, and he said he didn't know who that was. Brady has known the guy for 15 years. He sees him 8 times a year at home games. Brady knew the guy as Bird. Everyone knows him as Bird. Tedy Bruschi and several others said the same thing Brady did. And, Brady didn't hand over his personal cell phone. He otherwise cooperated entirely. The NFLPA is adamant that cell phones should not be handed over. Gostkowski also didn't hand over his cell phone. In fact, no one handed over their personal cell phone. The texts in question came off of Patriots cell phones. Given the way the NFL and the Wells people leak personal info (as they did in the Incognito case and also in this case with Jastremski, info unrelated to the investigation, it is no wonder that a high profile person like Brady didn't give them his cell phone. Regardless, Brady's texts to Jastremski would have appeared on Jastremski's phone. The forensics team, by the way, recovered all these erased texts from the phone.
 
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Deepster said:
Agree to disagree. I don't buy the weather excuse....and neither did the NFL. Tom and The Deflator didn't get away with this one.
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Here's what you don't get. The Wells team lied. They doubted to ref that told them he used the logo'd gauge. He told them his best recollection is that he used it. They twisted it and said, no he was mistaken, he used the higher gauge. That's how they concluded the numbers didn't comport.
 
Mr. Conehead said:
I have not kicked to many footballs, just soccer balls; but, based on that experience I would think kickers want the ball to be inflated on the higher side as it provides a firmer surface to drive against and better aerodynamics (kicked balls go a lot higher-up than passes). I mean in rec soccer with the little kids, we deflate the balls a bit to prevent injury to the kicker and the (usually) unintended target. Only exception is in very cold air when kicking a full inflated leather ball of any type feels like kicking a cement block.
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There are separate balls for the kickers.
 
upstater said:
Here's what you don't get. The Wells team lied. They doubted to ref that told them he used the logo'd gauge. He told them his best recollection is that he used it. They twisted it and said, no he was mistaken, he used the higher gauge. That's how they concluded the numbers didn't comport.
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I get that you can't just cheat and get away with it every time. You videotape practices. You deflate footballs. Sometimes you pay the price for that. Oh well.
 
the deflator was a name one gave another after Brady complained the balls were over inflated in an October game vs the Jets

and according to the Wells report, officials put air in the balls just before the game and they were over inflated

so when Brady complained after the game, the ball boys started joking about it afterwards

and this somehow becomes proof of some conspiracy, I can only smirk while slowly shaking my head
 
Mr. Conehead said:
A 4 game suspension for doing something that most other QB's do along with the loss of two draft picks feel excessive, even for a me, a rabid anti-Kraft guy. Maybe this is make-up for prior transgressions? I just can't see who/why the Pats penalize a player a team for these shenanigans more than they suspend players for domestic violence and a lot more serious crimes.
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1) As it's been stated in this thread many other times, other QBs admit they have ball preferences and say they like their footballs a certain way, but the officials still approve the balls prior to the game. The Patriots went out of the way to circumvent the rules by modifying the balls AFTER the officials inspected the ball. There's a clear difference there.

2) NFL said that it was excessive with the punishment because it viewed Patriots as repeat offenders... as they should have since the same ownership/coach is in place.

3) Serious crimes that happen off the field do not interfere with the outcome or integrity of the game. Deflating balls is a clear attempt to gain a competitive advantage in the game itself. That counts for something compared to what happens OFF the field from 1 players mistake. Granted, I can see what you're saying here, and as I stated above, I expect the suspension to be reduced to 2 games after appeal.
 
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johnhuskies95 said:
Obviously. But it's not a strong defense for Patriots fans. The guys behind the report would have to be idiots to use any kind of certainty in their language, even if they were 99.99999% sure.
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Nope. They used hedging language because they had very, very little. The whole case comes down to ambiguous texts between two idiots. If this issue were decided in front of anyone but Goodell (i.e., a court, and arbitrator, etc.) there are no sanctions.
 
I gave my thoughts on the investigation in the Guess Brady's Suspension thread. As if it matters to anyone (Patriot Haters still going to hate. Patriot Homers still going to defend. In the interest of full disclosure, I follow the Patriots, but I'm primarily a Redskins fan), here it is:

Husky25 said:
It doesn't surprise me. After 2 days of listening to Boston, CT, and NYC sports radio it finally dawned on my that the Wells report is a prosecutorial strategy being used as a judgment. Who paid the bills for the report? The NFL. Independent? I think not. The intent of the report is to, "Protect the Shield." How? Place blame on anyone other than the NFL. It is quite obvious that the Wells report cherry picked what "evidence" they chose to include in the report and it seems to me that more than a few assumptions contradict each other. It should be presented to the NFL, but now, I think Brady should be able to conduct their own investigation as a defense.

The whole thing is ridiculous as it is, but the NFL allowed it to spin out of control. They brought it upon themselves and they should be responsible to see it to its logical conclusion. That won't happen, of course, but it should.
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There are so many other stupid theories flying around in this thread, I'm surprised that the possibility hasn't been raised that the NFL clause of compelling franchises and (particularly) players to cooperate with league sponsored investigations is a violation of their Constitutional rights.

In my opinion, this is 100% on the NFL and it could have been defused with one statement. Instead there is this huge charade, where they didn't even punish Brady for the rule infraction. According to Vincent's statement, "Quarterback Tom Brady will be suspended without pay for the first four games of the 2015 regular season for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the NFL." To me, that means not contributing to the façade of an independent investigation and turning over personal text messages and risk potential leaks from one of the best players in the history of the game.

Roger Goodell is detrimental to the integrity of the league. I'm so disgusted with myself for being an NFL fan...Still I'll probably sit on my for 11 hours each Sunday this fall and given my indirect support of this a-hat.
 
CL82 said:
Nope. They used hedging language because they had very, very little. The whole case comes down to ambiguous texts between two idiots. If this issue were decided in front of anyone but Goodell (i.e., a court, and arbitrator, etc.) their are no sanctions.
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Everyone and their brother thinks that Brady is going to "win" the appeal. If the suspension is reduced to two games even down to one), he does not win. The only way Brady wins, is if the suspension is completely reversed.
 
Apologies if this has already been covered in the prior 19 pages, but I'm struggling to understand how this is materially different from what happened to the Saints with Bountygate.

There, as here, the defenders of the accused claimed: (1) Everybody does it (with citation to specific quotes and examples from other teams and players); (2) The written correspondence was taken out of context and was intended as a joke; (3) There was no "proof" that anyone ever acted on the suggestions, or that they ever affected the outcome of any games or the safety of any players; (4) The investigation was targeted and flawed, and intended merely to scapegoat the Saints and make an example of them; and (5) The punishment was excessive in light of all the above.

The appeals were taken, some of the punishments were reversed, and everyone has moved on.

I don't see how this is any different, or how it is going to end any differently. Except that now it's the Pats (again) with the persecution complex, and this time they are repeat offenders.
 
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8893 said:
Apologies if this has already been covered in the prior 19 pages, but I'm struggling to understand how this is materially different from what happened to the Saints with Bountygate.

There, as here, the defenders of the accused claimed: (1) Everybody does it (with citation to specific quotes and examples from other teams and players); (2) The written correspondence was taken out of context and was intended as a joke; (3) There was no "proof" that anyone ever acted on the suggestions, or that they ever affected the outcome of any games or the safety of any players; (4) The investigation was targeted and flawed, and intended merely to scapegoat the Saints and make an example of them; and (5) The punishment was excessive in light of all the above.

The appeals were taken, some of the punishments were reversed, and everyone has moved on.

I don't see how this is any different, or how it is going to end any differently. Except that now it's the Pats (again) with the persecution complex, and this time they are repeat offenders.
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Wow, all those arguements sound so weak...oh wait, they are.

How about these:

1. The report shows no evidence of tampering.
2. The purported reduction in the air pressure is slightly less than the reports experts would be caused by the weather conditions.
3. The refs did not collect the starting air pressure, so really no determination can be made of the loss of pressure.
4. The Colts balls also lost pressure, but they aren't being sanctioned.
5. Sample size different between Pats balls and Colts balls render comparisions in effective.
6. Variation between gauges could have caused air pressure changes. There was no standardization of guages.
7. Repeated measuring causes air loss.
8. Texts between the ball boys is entirely consistent with bring balls to minimum allowable air pressure before NFL pre game check.
9. Reports text says that there was insufficient evidence to show tampering but that invesigator thinks that Brady may have been generally aware of it, if it existed. That is incredibly vague language.

Tough to santion anyone over that.
 
Brady lied he laughed in the face of everyone and thought he would get away with it because he's Tom Brady. Now I don't expect him to tell reporters what happened and not talking about it while the playoffs are going on is understandable but he covered it up to the NFL after the season. Goodell had to protect the shield, after not doing enough with the Rice, Hardy case until PR pressure forced him to react, he most likely said to himself its better to overreact to this then not doing enough and facing more bad PR. If Brady was handed 2 games it most likely gets appealed with no suspension, but 4 games I say it gets appealed to 2 games at the most the whole point is Brady is getting punished for messing with the shield.
 
Husky25 said:
What's funny is that if the suspension is upheld, the Patriots make out in the deal. Brady makes about $8 million/season, so the unpaid suspension docks him $2M. The Patriots' fine is $1M. They just made $1M on the deal.

The money doesn't matter. The stigma is all that matters.
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They said on Mike and Mike that the Patriots save 900k to be exact, so essentially they are only paying a 100k fine.
 
Scoe said:
They said on Mike and Mike that the Patriots save 900k to be exact, so essentially they are only paying a 100k fine.
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Trying to keep the numbers round for simplicity's sake.
 
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