Knicks let Lin go to the Rockets

[8893]

You keep saying that but it has been denied by Jeremy Lin.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/nba/07/18/jeremy-lin-exclusive/index.html

"A backloaded first offer, as widely reported, came to him at four years -- with the fourth as a team option -- and $28.8 million. As news of the offer broke (and Lin's camp says they did not communicate anything to the Knicks before an offer sheet was actually signed), Woodson publicly declared that Lin would "absolutely" be back. But not long after that, the Rockets came back with a revised offer: three years for $25.1 million.

By this point, Lin had no real idea what the Knicks would do. But there also wasn't much choice: He had all of one offer sheet in front of him to consider."

Yes, I read that earlier today. I read it very carefully, in fact, looking particularly for Lin's description of the way the second offer sheet came about, and for any denial that "Lin and his agent went back to Houston and pushed for a higher guarantee in the third year, which they apparently had hoped for from the start." I didn't see it then, and I don't see it now. What I did find interesting was that he denied going back to the Knicks before an offer sheet was signed, but he didn't deny going back to the Rockets to push for a higher guarantee (which ended up being the deal-breaker for the Knicks). I found it curious by omission.

I've agreed that, "by then, Houston had lost both Lowry and Dragic, so they were also willing to up the ante," and I understand that Lin was well within his rights to push for the best deal he could get, and he did. But I don't get where people are coming up with the notion that he was some innocent, helpless in all of this.

One other thing I don't hear being discussed by those who blame the Knicks for not locking up Lin beforehand is the Knicks' limited ability to do that under the CBA rules, and the fact that they couldn't even have offered him what Houston originally offered unless Houston (or some other team) made the offer first and they matched it. If Lin wasn't satisfied with Houston's first offer, and the Knicks could not have offered the same out of the gates, what makes people think he would have accepted less from the Knicks before testing the market?

I like Lin. I wish he stayed. I think he is better than either Kidd (at this point) or Felton. I think Dolan is an idiot who handled this poorly, to put it mildly. But I don't think it is as black-and-white as many people want to make it. I think that ignores the dynamic of a fluid situation involving three parties who each had a part in making it come about, and I don't think it was an easy decision for any one of them. I couldn't care less if people hate on Dolan; he's earned it. I just don't like tidy, convenient and intellectually lazy characterizations that over-simplify the realities of a complex situation like this one.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Yes, I read that earlier today. I read it very carefully, in fact, looking particularly for Lin's description of the way the second offer sheet came about, and for any denial that "Lin and his agent went back to Houston and pushed for a higher guarantee in the third year, which they apparently had hoped for from the start." I didn't see it then, and I don't see it now. What I did find interesting was that he denied going back to the Knicks before an offer sheet was signed, but he didn't deny going back to the Rockets to push for a higher guarantee (which ended up being the deal-breaker for the Knicks). I found it curious by omission.

I've agreed that, "by then, Houston had lost both Lowry and Dragic, so they were also willing to up the ante," and I understand that Lin was well within his rights to push for the best deal he could get, and he did. But I don't get where people are coming up with the notion that he was some innocent, helpless in all of this.

One other thing I don't hear being discussed by those who blame the Knicks for not locking up Lin beforehand is the Knicks' limited ability to do that under the CBA rules, and the fact that they couldn't even have offered him what Houston originally offered unless Houston (or some other team) made the offer first and they matched it. If Lin wasn't satisfied with Houston's first offer, and the Knicks could not have offered the same out of the gates, what makes people think he would have accepted less from the Knicks before testing the market?

I like Lin. I wish he stayed. I think he is better than either Kidd (at this point) or Felton. I think Dolan is an idiot who handled this poorly, to put it mildly. But I don't think it is as black-and-white as many people want to make it. I think that ignores the dynamic of a fluid situation involving three parties who each had a part in making it come about, and I don't think it was an easy decision for any one of them. I couldn't care less if people hate on Dolan; he's earned it. I just don't like tidy, convenient and intellectually lazy characterizations that over-simplify the realities of a complex situation like this one.

It is funny you keep blaming Lin for this. Lin had one offer in front of him. Let me say it again, Lin had one offer in front of him. Knicks never communicated with him during the process. Knicks spoke to him once during the entire free agency period? Knicks never made one single formal offer to Lin and his agents. Lin wants to play basketball and Houston was the once one who gave him the contract. Houston really needs a PG and they went all out to get Lin.

From Lin's perspective, he will be paid $8M per year which is pretty average salary for a NBA starting guard. Houston let Dragic go and his body of work isn't better than Lin's. Dragic got $8.5M per year over 4 years. Reality is that's the market value for a PG and Lin got paid accordingly.

As for luxury tax, that's not Lin's issue. Why blame the tax on Lin alone? Why not blame it on STAT, Melo, Chandler or any other Knick? All of their salaries are part of that luxury tax problem. Even if Knicks matched Lin offer, they could have let Lin play 2 years and do something to offload some salaries before year 3 to minimize the luxury tax hit. They could have moved STAT or someone for expiring contracts or whatever. There are other ways to solve the problem before year 3.

In the end, Houston wanted Lin much more than NY. Houston got their PG and rest is history. Oh yeah, saying Lin is average is super ignorant as well. Lin has all the tools to be a super star in this league. He is smart with the basketball, he is one of the quickest PGs out there and he really can attack the basket. You just watch, he will prove doubters like you wrong yet again in Houston. In 2 years, Lin will be a huge star in Houston and Knicks will be kicking themselves before they messed up yet again.

 

[8893]

Wow. I give up. I should have known better.

 

[StoweD210]

You guys should really all be sports writers

What, and sell out? Write what the Man tells us to write?

No way. Boneyard 4ever, baby.

 

[UConn990411]

So much discussion over such a mediocre player.

 

[Kitaman]

So much discussion over such a mediocre player.

Think Johnnie Selvie ......................................... again his fault.

 

[businesslawyer]

Wow. I give up. I should have known better.

It must be hard being the only one in the world who "gets" something and being unable to convince the world that you are right and they are wrong. Have a scotch.

 

[8893]

It must be hard being the only one in the world who "gets" something and being unable to convince the world that you are right and they are wrong. Have a scotch.

Not by a long shot. 29 of 30 NBA franchises apparently don't need to be convinced. One was desperate enough to take a leap of faith. I can live knowing that some folks on a college hoops message board don't get it. The only thing that annoyed me was the lack of reading comprehension, and that's what I should have known better than to expect here. I never blamed Lin, and I'm not among his doubters. I'm just taking a sober look at a situation that many non-basketball people here are judging with emotion instead.

 

[businesslawyer]

Not by a long shot. 29 of 30 NBA franchises apparently don't need to be convinced. One was desperate enough to take a leap of faith. I can live knowing that some folks on a college hoops message board don't get it. The only thing that annoyed me was the lack of reading comprehension, and that's what I should have known better than to expect here. I never blamed Lin, and I'm not among his doubters. I'm just taking a sober look at a situation that many non-basketball people here are judging with emotion instead.

Good grief. The fact that everyone posting on this thread thinks you have gone off the deep end has nothing to do with whether Lin is worth that kind of money. Reasonable minds can differ on that. If that is all you think you've said ....

 

[8893]

Good grief. The fact that everyone posting on this thread thinks you have gone off the deep end has nothing to do with whether Lin is worth that kind of money. Reasonable minds can differ on that. If that is all you think you've said ....

Ha! You, Waqy, WCH and Deadrody are "everyone." Enjoy your company my friend. Yep, that's a quality crew you got there!

 

[nomar]

8893 has been posting on the Yard since the get-go and of all the people who tend to go off the deep end (several of whom are commenting in this thread), he ain't one of them.

 

[8893]

8893 has been posting on the Yard since the get-go and of all the people who tend to go off the deep end (several of whom are commenting in this thread), he ain't one of them.

Thanks, nomar. Hey, how could I not "like" that post?

Seriously though, it seems the dividing line between sane and "off the deep end," at least as far as BL is concerned, is whether you believe that Lin and his agents played any part in re-doing the offer and stacking the third year to the limit, which was too far for New York to go. I believe they did. And anyone who has been following the progress of this situation since at least June should see that, too, imo. Back then--even before the arbitration decision--Lin and his agents (he was being repped by both Roger Montgomery and Williams & Connolly) made clear that they wanted test the market and try to get another team to back load the new contract to the max in the third year. They knew the only way to do that was to get another team involved, and they also openly acknowledged that that would make it less predictable whether he would end up with the Knicks, precisely because of the difficulty they would have in the third year under the luxury tax rules. When Houston's initial offer didn't max the third year, New York was openly relieved and pledged to match it.

In BL's world view, Houston unilaterally withdrew that offer and surprised Lin with a restructured offer, which he had no choice but to accept. I don't see it that way. I think Houston and Lin were both motivated to stack that third year, each for a different reason. As I've said, it took two to tango. To portray Lin as a wide-eyed innocent who was hostage to the process overlooks the facts of how it came about.

 

[Waquoit]

Ha! You, Waqy, WCH and Deadrody are "everyone." Enjoy your company my friend. Yep, that's a quality crew you got there!

I was think the same thing! Quality! I'm honored!

 

[businesslawyer]

Thanks, nomar. Hey, how could I not "like" that post?

Seriously though, it seems the dividing line between sane and "off the deep end," at least as far as BL is concerned, is whether you believe that Lin and his agents played any part in re-doing the offer and stacking the third year to the limit, which was too far for New York to go. I believe they did. And anyone who has been following the progress of this situation since at least June should see that, too, imo. Back then--even before the arbitration decision--Lin and his agents (he was being repped by both Roger Montgomery and Williams & Connolly) made clear that they wanted test the market and try to get another team to back load the new contract to the max in the third year. They knew the only way to do that was to get another team involved, and they also openly acknowledged that that would make it less predictable whether he would end up with the Knicks, precisely because of the difficulty they would have in the third year under the luxury tax rules. When Houston's initial offer didn't max the third year, New York was openly relieved and pledged to match it.

In BL's world view, Houston unilaterally withdrew that offer and surprised Lin with a restructured offer, which he had no choice but to accept. I don't see it that way. I think Houston and Lin were both motivated to stack that third year, each for a different reason. As I've said, it took two to tango. To portray Lin as a wide-eyed innocent who was hostage to the process overlooks the facts of how it came about.

Two points, and then I will try much, much harder to walk away from this thread.

1. There is no way under the CBA to "stack" the contract except by increasing the third year. Houston offered Lin the max it was allowed to in years 1 and 2. So you are saying Lin allowed the contract to be "stacked" when a far better use of the English language would be that Lin allowed Houston to offer him more money. Wow -- what a . Imagine him wanting a bigger contract as opposed to a smaller contract.

2. Similarly, Lin is not being disloyal because he allowed Houston to offer him more money. He is acting in the only manner that would make him less than totally insane. (I will not say Linsane just because.) To argue "disloyalty," you have to show that Lin could have gotten as good a contract in a way that was easier for the Knicks to match. But you can't do that. Years 1 and 2 were maxed out -- if there was to be more guaranteed money, it had to be in Year 3.

 

[Waquoit]

What I'm really enjoying in this thread from our Knick-fan friends is the way they are killing Lin on his way out of town. Calling him overrated, disloyal, he wouldn't play hurt... This is a guy who saved your season! He got Melo to step his game and in return Melo stabbed him in the back. Just like the fans are doing now. The Knicks are actually acting just like the way the Sox get accused of acting. And the fans are running with it! I know there is a great deal of Knick-Yank fan overlap. That level of compartmentalizing is truly a skill.

 

[8893]

Two points, and then I will try much, much harder to walk away from this thread.

1. There is no way under the CBA to "stack" the contract except by increasing the third year. Houston offered Lin the max it was allowed to in years 1 and 2. So you are saying Lin allowed the contract to be "stacked" when a far better use of the English language would be that Lin allowed Houston to offer him more money. Wow -- what a ****. Imagine him wanting a bigger contract as opposed to a smaller contract.

2. Similarly, Lin is not being disloyal because he allowed Houston to offer him more money. He is acting in the only manner that would make him less than totally insane. (I will not say Linsane just because.) To argue "disloyalty," you have to show that Lin could have gotten as good a contract in a way that was easier for the Knicks to match. But you can't do that. Years 1 and 2 were maxed out -- if there was to be more guaranteed money, it had to be in Year 3.

What I'm really enjoying in this thread from our Knick-fan friends is the way they are killing Lin on his way out of town. Calling him overrated, disloyal, he wouldn't play hurt... This is a guy who saved your season! He got Melo to step his game and in return Melo stabbed him in the back. Just like the fans are doing now. The Knicks are actually acting just like the way the Sox get accused of acting. And the fans are running with it! I know there is a great deal of Knick-Yank fan overlap. That level of compartmentalizing is truly a skill.

I never said Lin was disloyal, and I'm not killing him on his way out of town. I said I thought he did what he needed to do to maximize his payday, and that I could see how Dolan could feel that Lin and Houston gamed the Knicks by re-doing the offer. I've also said that the Knicks are the ones to blame for putting themselves in position to be gamed. I have no problem with Lin wanting the biggest payday he could get. The only point I've been trying to make all along on this is that Lin and his agents knew fully well, long beforehand, that if they were able to get a max offer with a max third year, the Knicks were less likely to match--and that was part of their plan nonetheless. When the first offer did not maximize the third year, they still pushed for it, and they knew (or should have known) the potential consequences. So...if anyone believes that Lin wanted to stay in New York but he had no choice, they are ignoring that he was an active and willing participant in re-doing the offer to make it less likely that the Knicks would match. You say he "allowed Houston to offer him more money," when a better and more accurate use of the English language would be to recognize the fact that he pushed for more money, knowing fully well that it made him less likely to end up in New York. Is that a crime? No. Was it a good business move? Probably. Did it also seal his fate in New York? Yes. Is it the best end result for Lin? Time will tell, but I think it probably is. And the most telling and accurate thing Lin has revealed about the whole deal is that he is relieved with the way it turned out.

You guys want an easy story with villains and heroes (i.e., Melo called the shots and wanted him gone) and there is less proof of that (referring specifically to this situation; there is a lot of proof that Melo and Dolan are bad news for the Knicks generally) than anything that has been floated in this thread. There is ample evidence--including direct quotes from Lin's agents dating back to June--that this is what Lin's representation was trying to accomplish all along.

BTW, I'm a Mets fan, so there goes that theory gang.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

So much discussion over such a mediocre player.

Do you watch basketball? Apparently not. If you don't think Lin had an impact on the Knicks, I don't know what to tell you. Read this article below. It has actual numbers to back it up vs. clueless opinions like the ones from Stephen A. Smith.

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/john_schuhmann/07/19/knicks-amare-carmelo/?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Lin on/off floorMINPaceOffRtgDefRtgNetRtg+/-
Lin on floor94197.5102.896.7+6.1+141
Lin off floor2,19994.9100.699.0+1.7+68
Total3,14095.7101.398.3+3.0+209
Pace = Possessions per 48 minutes
OffRtg = Points scored per 100 possessions
DefRtg = Points allowed per 100 possessions
NetRtg = Point differential per 100 possessions

 

[UConn990411]

Blah blah blah.

I like Lin - he is a good player. But there's a reason the Warriors and Rockets didn't even give him a shot (well, the Warriors are a terrible organization, so bad example), and that his only success came under D'Antoni and without Melo. And those reasons probably start with the fact that he's a defensive liability and had the worst turnover rate in the NBA last season...two things that inexplicably don't get brought up.

Newsflash: Lin is not as good as he showed during those fews weeks, nor is he a nothing like the Rockets and Warriors thought he was. Most likely, he's somewhere in between, which is a borderline starter/excellent bench player. That's a valuable thing to have, no doubt, but it doesn't warrant a 10-age (and counting) thread.

 

[8893]

Blah blah blah.

I like Lin - he is a good player. But there's a reason the Warriors and Rockets didn't even give him a shot (well, the Warriors are a terrible organization, so bad example), and that his only success came under D'Antoni and without Melo. And those reasons probably start with the fact that he's a defensive liability and had the worst turnover rate in the NBA last season...two things that inexplicably don't get brought up.

Newsflash: Lin is not as good as he showed during those fews weeks, nor is he a nothing like the Rockets and Warriors thought he was. Most likely, he's somewhere in between, which is a borderline starter/excellent bench player. That's a valuable thing to have, no doubt, but it doesn't warrant a 10-age (and counting) thread.

But...but...but...we liked him! He made us feel good! Dolan and Melo make us angry and frustrated! Waaaaaaaaaaaaa!

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Blah blah blah.

I like Lin - he is a good player. But there's a reason the Warriors and Rockets didn't even give him a shot (well, the Warriors are a terrible organization, so bad example), and that his only success came under D'Antoni and without Melo. And those reasons probably start with the fact that he's a defensive liability and had the worst turnover rate in the NBA last season...two things that inexplicably don't get brought up.

Newsflash: Lin is not as good as he showed during those fews weeks, nor is he a nothing like the Rockets and Warriors thought he was. Most likely, he's somewhere in between, which is a borderline starter/excellent bench player. That's a valuable thing to have, no doubt, but it doesn't warrant a 10-age (and counting) thread.

Oh really? Worst? Lin averaged 3.6 turnovers last year. Look at some others:

Steve Nash: 3.7
Russell Westbrook 3.6
Rondo 3.6
John Wall 3.9
Deron Williams 4.0

Guess what? PGs that touch the ball A LOT have turnovers. Are you saying all those guys suck at PG?

One of the key stats in the NBA is the PER ranking. It measures all impacts a player has on the game. Of all the PGs in the league last year, Lin is ranked 10th with PER of 19.97. His replacement? Raymond Felton is ranked 43rd among PGs at 13.46. Jason Kidd is ranked 47th at 13.11. That's out of 67 players that played PG in the NBA last season. That's all you need to know.

Do some research next time before you post.

 

[Waquoit]

Remember Lin's play also broke the MSG/Time Warner Cable impasse. That made many extra millions for Dolan. Makes his balking at the price tag even lamer. At least has the money to bring back Isiah.

 

[UConn990411]

Oh really? Worst? Lin averaged 3.6 turnovers last year. Look at some others:

Steve Nash: 3.7
Russell Westbrook 3.6
Rondo 3.6
John Wall 3.9
Deron Williams 4.0

This post is sooo 1999.

What's the difference between Lin and those other guys? They all averaged well over 30 mpg, whereas Lin averaged just 26.9.

Let's look at turnovers per 36 minutes:
Lin: 4.8
Nash: 4.2
Westbrook: 3.7
Rondo: 3.6
Wall: 3.8
Williams: 3.9

So, yeah.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

This post is sooo 1999.

What's the difference between Lin and those other guys? They all averaged well over 30 mpg, whereas Lin averaged just 26.9.

Let's look at turnovers per 36 minutes:
Lin: 4.8
Nash: 4.2
Westbrook: 3.7
Rondo: 3.6
Wall: 3.8
Williams: 3.9

So, yeah.

LOL.. get real dude. Did you pay any attention to PER rankings? It takes everything into account when the player is on the floor. Yeah it is funny guys like you would pick one stat out of many and try to make a point.

 

[UConn990411]

Um, I was responding to YOUR post, when you tried to argue that Lin wasn't the most turnover-prone point guard in the league.

You're acting like I said Lin is garbage, which I didn't. In fact, I said "I like Lin - he is a good player." I just don't think (a) he's as good as the hype, and/or (b) we have any clue how good he really is yet (Since he's played, well, 30 games. That's the definition of a small sample size.)

It's getting a little weird how vehemently you are defending Lin. Are you two banging?

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Um, I was responding to YOUR post, when you tried to argue that Lin wasn't the most turnover-prone point guard in the league.

You're acting like I said Lin is garbage, which I didn't. In fact, I said "I like Lin - he is a good player." I just don't think (a) he's as good as the hype, and/or (b) we have any clue how good he really is yet (Since he's played, well, 30 games. That's the definition of a small sample size.)

It's getting a little weird how vehemently you are defending Lin. Are you two banging?

Yeah I would say it is getting weird arguing with an idiot who is arguing for the sake of arguing. On top of it, you are a childish dick as well.

I will say this though, no one knows what is Lin's ceiling. Rockets GM Morey is a lot smarter about basketball than people like you or me and he decided Lin is worth $25M. We will all find out soon if that money is worth it. To me, it is money much better spent than paying whatever they are paying Melo or Stat.