Knicks let Lin go to the Rockets

[willinphilly]

That's a great card.

And Lin needs to stop talking about it. Either the CCT article is poorly written or he is starting to contradict himself (and his agents) more and more. He is a good kid and good story, but this pollyanna stuff is start to get a bit annoying.

As I've said, if he wanted to stay in New York (which is now less clear than ever), he should have told his agents that was a priority. As it turns out, he didn't need to go back to Houston to ask for a max contract that would send him away from New York; his agents had already asked for exactly that in the first instance, and had told any team who listened that the Knicks were unlikely to match a max third year. It was only when the Rockets got desperate that they decided to take the chance.

I don't think Lin has said anything until that article. What would you do in his situation? Tell your agent "hey structure a contract for me that involves less money from the Rockets so that Knicks would pay less penalty tax?" Do you think Morey is a moron? Why would Morey ever do something like that? The Rockets made an offer that Lin had to sign (since it was his only offer), other teams were scared off because the Knicks said they'd match up to a "billion." and bottom line the Rockets really believe in him. Omer Asik is getting the same salary as Lin; which I found surprising. Morey might know something that others don't

If he didn't sign the contract, he'd be completely at the Knicks mercy. Now I'm a big Jeremy Lin fan, but also a bigger Knicks fan. It's so beyond dumb of Dolan not to resign him. To get nothing for a promising PG and then go out and sign a fat-ass 29 year old who will not get any better...ugh. I'd rather see Pablo at the point than Felton. People in Portland HATE the guy.

Bottom line, Knicks didn't want him back because (1) Dolan irrationally feels betratyed and (2) he's just not a good fit with Melo + Amare. Look, Melo should get the ball but I think Lin would have figured out how to play with him. Woodson doesn't like vets (didn't like Landry, etc), Melo probably was jealous of the situation. All these things add up to a very very stupid decision.

 

[8893]

I don't think Lin has said anything until that article. What would you do in his situation? Tell your agent "hey structure a contract for me that involves less money from the Rockets so that Knicks would pay less penalty tax?" Do you think Morey is a moron? Why would Morey ever do something like that? The Rockets made an offer that Lin had to sign (since it was his only offer), other teams were scared off because the Knicks said they'd match up to a "billion." and bottom line the Rockets really believe in him. Omer Asik is getting the same salary as Lin; which I found surprising. Morey might know something that others don't

If he didn't sign the contract, he'd be completely at the Knicks mercy. Now I'm a big Jeremy Lin fan, but also a bigger Knicks fan. It's so beyond dumb of Dolan not to resign him. To get nothing for a promising PG and then go out and sign a fat-ass 29 year old who will not get any better...ugh. I'd rather see Pablo at the point than Felton. People in Portland HATE the guy.

Bottom line, Knicks didn't want him back because (1) Dolan irrationally feels betratyed and (2) he's just not a good fit with Melo + Amare. Look, Melo should get the ball but I think Lin would have figured out how to play with him. Woodson doesn't like vets (didn't like Landry, etc), Melo probably was jealous of the situation. All these things add up to a very very stupid decision.

He did an extended interview with someone the next day, SI I think. And he obviously spoke at the press conference, as well as his tweets.

If I was in his situation I would have sought the most guaranteed money and signed with the Rockets. I've said I think it's better for him. My point all along is that he's playing both sides of the street if he says he wished he stayed in New York. That would not have been my choice, but if you assume he is being truthful when he says it was his, he should have let his agents know that, period. If that was the case, I suspect their dealings with the Knicks would have gone much differently.

From what I read (esp. part 1 of ESPN's six-part series iirc), his agents knew from their very first dealing with the Knicks--on July 1--that the Knicks were concerned about the luxury tax implications of a max contract in the third year. The Knicks expressly suggested a structure that would avoid that. Lin's agents were put off that the Knicks did not offer the max that they could offer right out of the gates (4 years for $24M+), but they admit openly that the could not say whether Lin would have accepted it then--they just wanted it to use to shop to other teams. Let me ask you this: Why in the world would the Knicks do that, without a guarantee that Lin would take it? The only thing they would be doing otherwise would be to set the floor for other teams to bid against, and guarantee they'd have to pay more than that to keep him. People are overlooking that these were negotiations. Lin (through his agents) had a voice in the process. True, the Knicks didn't make a formal offer, but I haven't seen either Lin or his agents say that they told the Knicks that Lin would accept the max the Knicks could offer before they tested the market with other teams. Instead, they pursued the max contract they could get on the open market and aggressively informed other teams that the Knicks would not match a max contract.

Bottom line: If Lin wanted to stay in New York, there was nothing stopping his agents from telling the Knicks that he would stay for the max the Knicks could offer and would not test the market. I have not seen any source that says they did that. I know everyone wants to bury the Knicks for the way they handled this, but without any statement from Lin that he would have accepted their lower max, I don't know what their options were. They said they would match Houston's first offer. If you think they should have matched Houston's second offer, I disagree.

 

[willinphilly]

He did an extended interview with someone the next day, SI I think. And he obviously spoke at the press conference, as well as his tweets.

If I was in his situation I would have sought the most guaranteed money and signed with the Rockets. I've said I think it's better for him. My point all along is that he's playing both sides of the street if he says he wished he stayed in New York. That would not have been my choice, but if you assume he is being truthful when he says it was his, he should have let his agents know that, period. If that was the case, I suspect their dealings with the Knicks would have gone much differently.

From what I read (esp. part 1 of ESPN's six-part series iirc), his agents knew from their very first dealing with the Knicks--on July 1--that the Knicks were concerned about the luxury tax implications of a max contract in the third year. The Knicks expressly suggested a structure that would avoid that. Lin's agents were put off that the Knicks did not offer the max that they could offer right out of the gates (4 years for $24M+), but they admit openly that the could not say whether Lin would have accepted it then--they just wanted it to use to shop to other teams. Let me ask you this: Why in the world would the Knicks do that, without a guarantee that Lin would take it? The only thing they would be doing otherwise would be to set the floor for other teams to bid against, and guarantee they'd have to pay more than that to keep him. People are overlooking that these were negotiations. Lin (through his agents) had a voice in the process. True, the Knicks didn't make a formal offer, but I haven't seen either Lin or his agents say that they told the Knicks that Lin would accept the max the Knicks could offer before they tested the market with other teams. Instead, they pursued the max contract they could get on the open market and aggressively informed other teams that the Knicks would not match a max contract.

Bottom line: If Lin wanted to stay in New York, there was nothing stopping his agents from telling the Knicks that he would stay for the max the Knicks could offer and would not test the market. I have not seen any source that says they did that. I know everyone wants to bury the Knicks for the way they handled this, but without any statement from Lin that he would have accepted their lower max, I don't know what their options were. They said they would match Houston's first offer. If you think they should have matched Houston's second offer, I disagree.

But the bottom line is that the Knicks didn't offer him a contract. If the offered 4/24 and Lin chose to sign the Rockets contract, you're right. We don't know what his agents and the Knicks said. We only know that the Knicks told him to go test the market and then the Knicks started going after Nash, Kidd and Felton. I just don't think the Knicks (shocking that Dolan still relies on Isaiah's opinion) really wanted him back. Keep in mind a front-loaded contract is not possible under the CBA - $5MM/yr in the first two years was the max any team could offer.

 

[8893]

But the bottom line is that the Knicks didn't offer him a contract. If the offered 4/24 and Lin chose to sign the Rockets contract, you're right. We don't know what his agents and the Knicks said. We only know that the Knicks told him to go test the market and then the Knicks started going after Nash, Kidd and Felton. I just don't think the Knicks (shocking that Dolan still relies on Isaiah's opinion) really wanted him back. Keep in mind a front-loaded contract is not possible under the CBA - $5MM/yr in the first two years was the max any team could offer.

But why does everyone overlook that Lin presented the same value enigma to the Knicks as he did to everyone else? Their strategy almost worked. If Houston didn't lose both Dragic and Lowry in the interim, the Knicks would have paid $19.8M to keep him,which would have saved them $5M off the max they could have offered him without matching. Notice that other teams were not knocking down the door to enter the bidding, even after Lin's agents aggressively told them all that the Knicks would not match a max offer. There is no dispute that the Knicks told Lin's agents that a max third year was a luxury tax problem for them before the process even started; unlike others I'm not assuming that changed along the way.

Whether they kept Lin or not they needed another PG. Of course they were pursuing the best ones available. Why wouldn't they? They only pursued Felton once Houston upped the ante to where the Knicks would not go.

 

[willinphilly]

But why does everyone overlook that Lin presented the same value enigma to the Knicks as he did to everyone else? Their strategy almost worked. If Houston didn't lose both Dragic and Lowry in the interim, the Knicks would have paid $19.8M to keep him,which would have saved them $5M off the max they could have offered him without matching. Notice that other teams were not knocking down the door to enter the bidding, even after Lin's agents aggressively told them all that the Knicks would not match a max offer. There is no dispute that the Knicks told Lin's agents that a max third year was a luxury tax problem for them before the process even started; unlike others I'm not assuming that changed along the way.

Whether they kept Lin or not they needed another PG. Of course they were pursuing the best ones available. Why wouldn't they? They only pursued Felton once Houston upped the ante to where the Knicks would not go.

This is not a financial decision. Dolan does not think about value. Plus, other teams really thought the Knicks would match. Morey was surprised they didn't but was willing to take the chance.

 

[8893]

This is not a financial decision. Dolan does not think about value. Plus, other teams really thought the Knicks would match. Morey was surprised they didn't but was willing to take the chance.

Your're disregarding the timing. Before the Knicks opened their mouths, Lin's agents told everyone that the Knicks had said they could not do a max third year. If other teams thought he was worth it, they had nothing to lose. I think the fact that Lin s agents admit that the Knicks told them about the max third year concern beforehand lends more support to the notion that this was a financial decision, at least in part. At least it is consistent with what they said from the start.

 

[willinphilly]

Your're disregarding the timing. Before the Knicks opened their mouths, Lin's agents told everyone that the Knicks had said they could not do a max third year. If other teams thought he was worth it, they had nothing to lose. I think the fact that Lin s agents admit that the Knicks told them about the max third year concern beforehand lends more support to the notion that this was a financial decision, at least in part. At least it is consistent with what they said from the start.

where did you read that?

 

[bellairehusky]

Not sure if this was mentioned previously (I did not wade through all fourteen pages) but I recall after the Harvard/UConn game that Calhoun said something to the effect that he always thought Lin was underrated and he was quite adamant that Lin would be a starter on any of his teams. Calhoun also stated that Lin will be a good player at the NBA level, IIRC. I think Calhoun knows what he is/was talking about...very prescient.

 

[8893]

where did you read that?

Part 6 of the ESPN series:

But instead of making an offer, the Knicks spoke in terms of concepts rather than numbers, a source said. And their concept, according to the source, was for Lin to sign a front-loaded contract that actually decreased in the third year of the deal, with no mention of a fourth year. Considering that the most Lin could get in the first year of the deal was $5.3 million, it seemed to Lin's representatives that the Knicks were asking him to settle for $4 million or even less in the third year. Sources close to the Knicks would not confirm that the figures discussed were front-loaded or less than the maximum possible offer.
The Knicks' motivation for a front-loaded deal was to avoid a harsh penalty when the new luxury tax rules kick in for the 2014-15 season, the third year on a new Lin contract. The Knicks' apprehension about paying a steep tax later in the deal gave the Lin camp pause and led it to conclude for the first time that if Lin got a lucrative offer elsewhere, the Knicks probably would not match it.

While it may not seem like a big deal, Lin's camp felt the Knicks' nonchalant approach was a show of disrespect and took it as a sign that the Knicks might play hardball. When the parties did speak, their feelings were confirmed.
At that point, Lin's representatives began going on the offensive, telling clubs that were interested in Lin, most notably the Toronto Raptors, that the Knicks were not likely to match a lucrative offer. But most teams, still convinced the Knicks wouldn't let Lin go, didn't believe them.
Then along came the Houston Rockets. The Rockets had not called Lin at 12:01 on July 1, and had not been aggressively recruiting him. But when they finally reached out, the two sides agreed to meet in Houston on July 4. Lin met with Rockets coach Kevin McHale, who told him how well he'd fit into Houston's up-tempo, pick-and-roll offense.

 

[willinphilly]

Part 6 of the ESPN series:

Ok. Well that's not a financial situation. You don't just make an absurd offer like $5/$5/then $4! and say, oh well, the guy didn't accept so it must be a financial decision. Clearly they didn't want Lin back. As for the other teams, maybe they just didn't believe it. Who knows what really happened. Dolan's hatchet job on Lin (via SAS and Isola) is disgraceful though.

 

[8893]

Ok. Well that's not a financial situation. You don't just make an absurd offer like $5/$5/then $4! and say, oh well, the guy didn't accept so it must be a financial decision. Clearly they didn't want Lin back. As for the other teams, maybe they just didn't believe it. Who knows what really happened. Dolan's hatchet job on Lin (via SAS and Isola) is disgraceful though.

Well that's not exactly what they said. They said beforehand that they were concerned about a max third year because of luxury tax implications, and they suggested a construct that was lower than the max they could have offered without a competing offer to match. In your view they apparently should have offered him the max off the bat. I think that's poor negotiating strategy unless you are absolutely sure you want the guy at that price. Don't forget, the Knicks were still hopeful on Nash at that point, so they had to be concerned about their own flexibility. In any event, they didn't stop the bidding there and say that's it; they said they would match the first offer. In retrospect, that was really stupid to announce, but there is no reason not to believe that they would have matched that, and that was obviously a healthier offer than their own initial suggestion, but it was still less than the 4 for $24.2M max non-matching offer that Lin's agents were hoping for (but never said they would accept).

So, the Knicks said a max third year was a concern from the start, and Lin's agents believed that the Knicks were serious enough about that to be convinced that the Knicks would not match a max third year offer from another team. When the Knicks failed to match Houston's final offer containing a max third year, that was consistent with what they said beforehand, and I don't think Lin's agents were surprised in the least, because that's exactly what they thought would happen. If Lin was surprised, he should have had better communication with his agents throughout the process.

 

[aceboon]

Are you going to be around if he blows up?

A quarter into the season I think is fair to acknowledge that he's been a disappointment, especially with this ridiculous contract(c)Melo. Getting benched down the stretch of games for Toney Douglas isn't a good look, when he gets voted to start the All Star game its gonna be an embarrasment for the league. His play pretty much validates what most sane basketball minds already knew, D'Antoni's offense made him look alot better than he is. Alot of guys in this league can get numbers if you put the ball in their hands and let them go for 40 minutes a game.

Don't hide...

 

[caw]

A quarter into the season I think is fair to acknowledge that he's been a disappointment, especially with this ridiculous contract(c)Melo. Getting benched down the stretch of games for Toney Douglas isn't a good look, when he gets voted to start the All Star game its gonna be an embarrasment for the league. His play pretty much validates what most sane basketball minds already knew, D'Antoni's offense made him look alot better than he is. Alot of guys in this league can get numbers if you put the ball in their hands and let them go for 40 minutes a game.

He's not been good, let along great, but he hasn't be horrid either. The contract isn't bad for Houston. It's really not bad for anyone but the Knicks, because of their other salary (cap).

His A/TO has improved, but his shooting has gone downhill a ton. He was much better with a legit finisher as his screener off of PnR's, Chandler may be the best in the league (or one of them).

 

[aceboon]

Yikes

Good one, 8893. The old, "I'm getting tired of you defending Lin so I'm going to accuse you two of being in a sexual relationship" retort. I don't think I've heard that one since the eigth grade, thanks for bringing back the memories.

Anyway, getting rid of Lin would have been less laughable if the Knicks had not shelled out the same amount of combined money to Raymond Felton and Jason Kidd. Not only was Raymond Felton absolutely terrible last year, but he was 20 pounds overweight and the absolute furthest thing from a professional. Jason Kidd is older than a lot of posters on this message board and coming off a season where he doublessly looked washed up.

Lin's turnover numbers were so high last season because in the time when Anthony and STAT were out, he used the ball as much as anybody in the NBA, thus leading to more turnovers. His turnover ratio was still around 2:1 in that timeframe which is far from terrible, although you'd like him to be more around 3:1. Basketball wise, there are not really any statistics you can point to if you're defending this decision besides crazy hunches backed in zero evidence like, "Lin needs the ball in his hands at all times", or something along those lines.

This is one of the best articles I've seen on the subject:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...g-new-york-knicks-james-dolan-blundered-again

 

[aceboon]

His play hasn't justified the nuthugging that WCH was doing in this thread.

He's not been good, let along great, but he hasn't be horrid either. The contract isn't bad for Houston. It's really not bad for anyone but the Knicks, because of their other salary (cap).

His A/TO has improved, but his shooting has gone downhill a ton. He was much better with a legit finisher as his screener off of PnR's, Chandler may be the best in the league (or one of them).

 

[benjordan]

Lin's contract is only bad in the last year.. and whoa is it bad if this play continues. But let's not forget this kid has only played 83 games in his career.. and has only gotten a lot of minutes in half of those games so he's still learning. He's still "only" making ~$8 million a year over the length of the contract.

Having said that, I'm happy to have been completely wrong on this whole situation. I, like many other Knick fans, originally cringed at the Felton/Kidd replacement combo for Lin but couldn't be happier so far. Kidd has turned into arguably the third most important player on the Knicks.

Now if I could just figure out that Camby contract...

 

[caw]

Lin's contract is only bad in the last year.. and whoa is it bad if this play continues. But let's not forget this kid has only played 83 games in his career.. and has only gotten a lot of minutes in half of those games so he's still learning. He's still "only" making ~$8 million a year over the length of the contract.

Having said that, I'm happy to have been completely wrong on this whole situation. I, like many other Knick fans, originally cringed at the Felton/Kidd replacement combo for Lin but couldn't be happier so far. Kidd has turned into arguably the third most important player on the Knicks.

Now if I could just figure out that Camby contract...

I think due to the Rockets salary and the way the contract was structured it actually goes on the books as 8 million a year. The Knicks were not in the same situation.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

His play hasn't justified the nuthugging that WCH was doing in this thread.

First, Lin is still getting into rhythm since he has been out of basketball for many months. Anyone who got injuried in the past like that knows it takes a while to get back in shape and rhythm.

If you watched any Rockets game you would realize he has to share ball handling with Harden. Harden is like the other PG now. Lin is playing way more off the ball than before and that's not his strength. Lin's shooting has fell off from last year. Part of it was being out of basketball for so long and part of it is due to the new system he is playing in. He is much more of distributor this year than last year and he has improved his defense greatly. His big men is also no where near as deadly as Tyson at pick and roll so they finish way less than Tyson did at Knicks.

As long as he plays in this system, he won't get huge stats since he is not the main scorer. He has to improve his shooting when he does go for his shots. However, he also needs the green light to go for more of his shots. In other words, he needs the ball in his hand more than now. It is almost better for him to come off the bench and play with the second unit so he can be the guy handling the ball more vs. sharing the ball with Harden.

Houston as a team is still adjusting since everyone is new. They do have a fairly unselfish team so hopefully they can get it figured out soon.

 

[benjordan]

I think due to the Rockets salary and the way the contract was structured it actually goes on the books as 8 million a year. The Knicks were not in the same situation.

I believe they still have to pay $15 million in 2014/2015.. the big difference being they won't be in the luxury tax like the Knicks.

But as of right now they have $45M committed to 3 players in 2014/2015 (Harden, Lin, Asik)

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm

 

[willinphilly]

First, Lin is still getting into rhythm since he has been out of basketball for many months. Anyone who got injuried in the past like that knows it takes a while to get back in shape and rhythm.

If you watched any Rockets game you would realize he has to share ball handling with Harden. Harden is like the other PG now. Lin is playing way more off the ball than before and that's not his strength. Lin's shooting has fell off from last year. Part of it was being out of basketball for so long and part of it is due to the new system he is playing in. He is much more of distributor this year than last year and he has improved his defense greatly. His big men is also no where near as deadly as Tyson at pick and roll so they finish way less than Tyson did at Knicks.

As long as he plays in this system, he won't get huge stats since he is not the main scorer. He has to improve his shooting when he does go for his shots. However, he also needs the green light to go for more of his shots. In other words, he needs the ball in his hand more than now. It is almost better for him to come off the bench and play with the second unit so he can be the guy handling the ball more vs. sharing the ball with Harden.

Houston as a team is still adjusting since everyone is new. They do have a fairly unselfish team so hopefully they can get it figured out soon.

I'm a Knicks fan who was disappointed that they let Lin go. Right now, it definitely looks like the right decision, at least in the short term. Felton is a better point guard for Woodson's system and right now is just a better point guard in general. Lin has been a disappointment thus far, and has not played to expectations. Yes injuries, and yes playing with Harden who is ball-dominant is definitely an issue. But he has not played well despite these issues. But I'm bullish on Lin and think he will figure things out. He still has that explosive first step and once he gets back some his vertical, he should be able to take people to the rack pretty easily. He is clearly suffering from some confidence issues but he's been knocked down so many times in his life that he'll get back up I'm sure. Never seen that many hating on a guy though. He's the humblest dude, yet people want to see him fail so bad. Totally not clear to me why...

 

[nomar]

I'm definitely not always right but I was right about this one. Sometimes refusing to cater to the emotions of your fanbase is the right decision.

 

[mauconnfan]

I'm a Knicks fan who was disappointed that they let Lin go. Right now, it definitely looks like the right decision, at least in the short term. Felton is a better point guard for Woodson's system and right now is just a better point guard in general. Lin has been a disappointment thus far, and has not played to expectations. Yes injuries, and yes playing with Harden who is ball-dominant is definitely an issue. But he has not played well despite these issues. But I'm bullish on Lin and think he will figure things out. He still has that explosive first step and once he gets back some his vertical, he should be able to take people to the rack pretty easily. He is clearly suffering from some confidence issues but he's been knocked down so many times in his life that he'll get back up I'm sure. Never seen that many hating on a guy though. He's the humblest dude, yet people want to see him fail so bad. Totally not clear to me why...

I doubt anyone wants to see him fail, how can you it's a great story. I just think most know he had a "run at the right time" which made him lots of cash!! He's not worth that and probably never will be but good for him, he's set!

 

[WestCoastHusky]

I doubt anyone wants to see him fail, how can you it's a great story. I just think most know he had a "run at the right time" which made him lots of cash!! He's not worth that and probably never will be but good for him, he's set!

True. However, jury is still out on Lin since he is a young player. No one really knows what is his upside at this point so jumping to conclusion now is pointless.

 

[progrocks]

What do you mean he is not worth it? 8 million a year is a rounding error for a team in professional sports right now. The Sox just signed Victorino to a 13 million a year contract for gods sake! If he fails, the Rockets will not even notice that money being lost, not in the slightest.

 

[benjordan]

What do you mean he is not worth it? 8 million a year is a rounding error for a team in professional sports right now. The Sox just signed Victorino to a 13 million a year contract for gods sake! If he fails, the Rockets will not even notice that money being lost, not in the slightest.

Is this sarcastic? There's a salary cap, albeit a soft one.