Knicks let Lin go to the Rockets | Page 5 | The Boneyard

Knicks let Lin go to the Rockets

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nomar

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What I'm really enjoying in this thread from our Knick-fan friends is the way they are killing Lin on his way out of town. Calling him overrated, disloyal, he wouldn't play hurt... This is a guy who saved your season! He got Melo to step his game and in return Melo stabbed him in the back. Just like the fans are doing now. The Knicks are actually acting just like the way the Sox get accused of acting. And the fans are running with it! I know there is a great deal of Knick-Yank fan overlap. That level of compartmentalizing is truly a skill.

Who and what are you talking about? Seriously, I have no idea who is supposedly "killing" Lin. Just because someone thinks the Knicks made the right basketball decision or questions how the negotiations went doesn't go to anywhere near the same stratosphere as stabbing a player in the back. Get some perspective.

Of all the stupid crap people do on sports message boards, calling someone who doesn't agree with your high opinion of a particular player a "HATER" is right up there as one of the most annoying.
 
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But...but...but...we liked him! He made us feel good! Dolan and Melo make us angry and frustrated! Waaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Waaambulance.jpg

Any interest in explaining to the board how the 6 part ESPN article on the whole Lin affair supports your position? Or will you just leave it to the rest of us to understand how wrong you were/are?
 
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Reading Ian O'Connor's story today and ESPN's part 6, it was clear Knicks played games with Jeremy Lin and was never serious about giving him a contract based on market conditions. If they really wanted him, they could have offered him $24.4M for 4 years before he even left for free agency. They played games with Lin while going behind his back to structure deals for other PGs. Dolan could have matched the offer easily but he didn't. We will see if Dolan made the right decision. Houston is very excited about Lin and they got their man. We will find out in a year or so either way.

BTW, it is ridiculous people keep comparing basically Lin's rookie year to people who are veterans and superstars. I don't even know what Lin's real ceiling is. Personally, I think Knicks messed up big time and they will regret this decision a year down the road.
 
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Reading Ian O'Connor's story today and ESPN's part 6, it was clear Knicks played games with Jeremy Lin and was never serious about giving him a contract based on market conditions. If they really wanted him, they could have offered him $24.4M for 4 years before he even left for free agency. They played games with Lin while going behind his back to structure deals for other PGs. Dolan could have matched the offer easily but he didn't. We will see if Dolan made the right decision. Houston is very excited about Lin and they got their man. We will find out in a year or so either way.

BTW, it is ridiculous people keep comparing basically Lin's rookie year to people who are veterans and superstars. I don't even know what Lin's real ceiling is. Personally, I think Knicks messed up big time and they will regret this decision a year down the road.

As a Knick fan, I think I'm unhappy with it, and I think it was a bad decision, but I absolutely see the other side. It's not like it's a sure thing that he will be a star, and it's not a sure thing that his game was going to blend with melo's.

I'm far more concerned with how we can every win when our organization either has turned over control to Worldwide Wes or is just so assinine that they felt the need to blame Lin for what was a combination business and basketball decisions. As for the mouthpices, like Steven A and a few on here who actually want to give credence to anything MSG says -- well, one is born every minute.
 

8893

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Any interest in explaining to the board how the 6 part ESPN article on the whole Lin affair supports your position? Or will you just leave it to the rest of us to understand how wrong you were/are?
Um, I have no clue what you're talking about. But the theory that you and WCH are in a relationship with Jeremy Lin is gaining momentum.

If your handle accurately describes what you do, it astounds me even more that would fail to understand the most basic elements of what a contract is. But it does help explain why you spend so much time on this board.

Please show me the part where Lin's agents: (a) did not realize weeks ago that the Knicks were concerned about back-loading the third year, even though they were expressly told that that was a major concern; and (b) did not continue to push for exactly that nonetheless. They wanted the max deal. They actually wanted a fourth year guaranteed for up to the $40M max--and who wouldn't??? Especially when they are being paid more the higher the contract. Perhaps Lin himself was unaware of the likely consequences of their actions, but I am more convinced than ever that his agents knew all along that this was the likely result if they were successful in maximizing his contract through back-loading it.

You want a simple story line? Here it is: Lin's desire to maximize this contract--which was his right--was fundamentally incompatible with the Knicks' basketball and financial plans, and this was known well beforehand by Lin's agents. IMO it is fair to question the wisdom in either or both, but to be on such a strident crusade as you have been to portray Lin as an innocent victim of Melo and Dolan is, well, odd--to put it mildly. Knock yourself out though. Me, I'm going back to work. And drinking. You might consider cracking the spine of Farnsworth, Corbin, Williston, etc. though.
 

JaYnYcE

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As a Knick fan, I think I'm unhappy with it, and I think it was a bad decision, but I absolutely see the other side. It's not like it's a sure thing that he will be a star, and it's not a sure thing that his game was going to blend with melo's.

I'm far more concerned with how we can every win when our organization either has turned over control to Worldwide Wes or is just so assinine that they felt the need to blame Lin for what was a combination business and basketball decisions. As for the mouthpices, like Steven A and a few on here who actually want to give credence to anything MSG says -- well, one is born every minute.

Good to see BL is a Knick fan. I could sure use your help over on www.homeoftheknicks.com


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Good one, 8893. The old, "I'm getting tired of you defending Lin so I'm going to accuse you two of being in a sexual relationship" retort. I don't think I've heard that one since the eigth grade, thanks for bringing back the memories.

Anyway, getting rid of Lin would have been less laughable if the Knicks had not shelled out the same amount of combined money to Raymond Felton and Jason Kidd. Not only was Raymond Felton absolutely terrible last year, but he was 20 pounds overweight and the absolute furthest thing from a professional. Jason Kidd is older than a lot of posters on this message board and coming off a season where he doublessly looked washed up.

Lin's turnover numbers were so high last season because in the time when Anthony and STAT were out, he used the ball as much as anybody in the NBA, thus leading to more turnovers. His turnover ratio was still around 2:1 in that timeframe which is far from terrible, although you'd like him to be more around 3:1. Basketball wise, there are not really any statistics you can point to if you're defending this decision besides crazy hunches backed in zero evidence like, "Lin needs the ball in his hands at all times", or something along those lines.

This is one of the best articles I've seen on the subject:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...g-new-york-knicks-james-dolan-blundered-again
 

JaYnYcE

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Good one, 8893. The old, "I'm getting tired of you defending Lin so I'm going to accuse you two of being in a sexual relationship" retort. I don't think I've heard that one since the eigth grade, thanks for bringing back the memories.

Anyway, getting rid of Lin would have been less laughable if the Knicks had not shelled out the same amount of combined money to Raymond Felton and Jason Kidd. Not only was Raymond Felton absolutely terrible last year, but he was 20 pounds overweight and the absolute furthest thing from a professional. Jason Kidd is older than a lot of posters on this message board and coming off a season where he doublessly looked washed up.

Lin's turnover numbers were so high last season because in the time when Anthony and STAT were out, he used the ball as much as anybody in the NBA, thus leading to more turnovers. His turnover ratio was still around 2:1 in that timeframe which is far from terrible, although you'd like him to be more around 3:1. Basketball wise, there are not really any statistics you can point to if you're defending this decision besides crazy hunches backed in zero evidence like, "Lin needs the ball in his hands at all times", or something along those lines.

This is one of the best articles I've seen on the subject:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...g-new-york-knicks-james-dolan-blundered-again

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1342817558.089206.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1342817570.350403.jpg


So much for being overweight.


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8893

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Good one, 8893. The old, "I'm getting tired of you defending Lin so I'm going to accuse you two of being in a sexual relationship" retort. I don't think I've heard that one since the eigth grade, thanks for bringing back the memories.

Anyway, getting rid of Lin would have been less laughable if the Knicks had not shelled out the same amount of combined money to Raymond Felton and Jason Kidd. Not only was Raymond Felton absolutely terrible last year, but he was 20 pounds overweight and the absolute furthest thing from a professional. Jason Kidd is older than a lot of posters on this message board and coming off a season where he doublessly looked washed up.

Lin's turnover numbers were so high last season because in the time when Anthony and STAT were out, he used the ball as much as anybody in the NBA, thus leading to more turnovers. His turnover ratio was still around 2:1 in that timeframe which is far from terrible, although you'd like him to be more around 3:1. Basketball wise, there are not really any statistics you can point to if you're defending this decision besides crazy hunches backed in zero evidence like, "Lin needs the ball in his hands at all times", or something along those lines.

This is one of the best articles I've seen on the subject:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...g-new-york-knicks-james-dolan-blundered-again
Sorry for the juvenile attempt at humor; I was picking up on a theme someone posted the other day about Lin and WCH (who, incidentally, had admitted to having an interest in Lin's career, whatever that means). It was a joke, but obviously not meant to be a deflection, as I went on to address the apparently misguided claim directly.

As to your points, first, I want to be clear that I am a Knicks fan, but by no means one who believes they are run soundly either on the court or financially. I've said that repeatedly. But that doesn't mean that everything they do is foolish. Most things, perhaps. But they are still "my" team and I'd like to think about ways they can make things work, rather than obsess about them being the cause of all evil in the world and the villains who killed Jeremy Lin.

I believe Kidd is getting $9M over three years and Felton is getting almost $15M over four. The two of them together will cost the Knicks just shy of $7M per year for the three years at issue. In the NBA, it is the per year cost that matters most. Lin's third year--i.e., the only year that was a problem--would have cost the Knicks $15M. So...you think it's laughable to pay two players combined less than half of what you would have to pay one for the same position? Okay then. I've said all along that I would rather have Lin than either one, but you need more than one. Financially, I understand what the Knicks did and why they did it.

Basketball-wise, I don't know what to tell you, stat-man, except that 29 of 30 NBA GMs don't agree with you. And anyone with even a passing familiarity with statistics appreciates that Lin's numbers are, by definition, a small sample size. No one could argue with a straight face that they are valid for comparison of anything at this point. Again, I would have preferred to keep Lin, but it has become clearer to me that it probably would not have been better for him, or for the Knicks (as presently composed) in the long run. I wish the Knicks were composed differently, and I wish Dolan was not calling the shots. But neither one of those things are going to change any time soon. So, I can either accept what the team is and hope it works it out, or I can be a miserable hater of my own team--in which case I'd rather switch to Brooklyn now. The fact that I am also a Mets fans tells you all you need to know. In other words, I'm not smart enough to do that.

Finally, on the Lin saga. I've come to the conclusion that he, personally, probably did not realize what was going on until it was too late for him to ask some of the questions he probably should have asked if he really wanted to stay in New York. He let his agents handle it, and I am 100% convinced that they knew it all along, and that it ended up pretty much as they wanted it to and hoped it would. It sounds like they did not have the greatest relationship with the Knicks management from the get-go, and things deteriorated from there. They wanted a max deal, period. The Knicks were not willing to do that for Lin, period. As long as they could convince at least one team to offer the max, this was doomed from the start imo ("doomed" meaning that Lin would not end up in New York). As it turns out, it wasn't so much that they convinced Houston that Lin was worth it, but that Houston became desperate enough after losing Dragic and Lowry that they were the only team willing to bite. Houston can say all it wants know about how badly they wanted Lin back, but the facts say otherwise. They did not contact him at the deadline to express interest, and even when they made him an initial offer (the only team to do so), they made one that they knew was likely to be matched by the Knicks, meaning they wouldn't have ended up with him. It was only after they were left without any real possibility of a starting PG that they upped the offer to fend off the Knicks, which just happened to be exactly what Lin's agents had been working for from the start. A perfect storm, as it were, and anything but a simple story.

So, BL, I will admit that I was wrong about two things: (1) My very first reaction that Houston was foolish because the poison pill would hurt them, too, was incorrect. At that time I did not understand that they only get hit with the per-year average, rather than the actual amount paid in the third year. (2) I don't think Lin himself was as much of an active participant in the process that sent him to Houston as I thought originally; but I do believe that his agents were. When someone is acting as your agent, they are acting on your behalf, so their actions are fairly attributable to you. For a smart kid, Lin appears to have been pretty ignorant of the business end of this, and it also appears that his agents kept him in the dark about the fact that he was not likely to return to the Knicks if he signed an offer that had a max third year.
 

8893

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PS: Before anyone asks, I am not related to Dogmania, nor am I in a relationship with him. But I do appear to have been inhabited by his spirit. Sorry.
 
U

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I'm sure everyone's got an opinion one way or the other, and some are very emphatic and vehement about it. FWIW, the guy was with the Knicks for not even a full year. Pretty small sample size. Maybe he's all that, and maybe he's not. If the Rockets are willing to pay a crapload of $ to lure him away, more power to them. I hope he's successful there. It remains to be seen if the guy is worth the money - maybe it will be a bad decision in hindsight (like the sox letting Clemens go), or maybe (like when the sox let Pedro go), it will be seen as a good decision.
 
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for me the most telling thing is this: the guy at all levels has proven people wrong. nocal hs player of the yr (like Kidd). no d1 scholarships bc he didn't look the part. top performer at harvard, huge games against acc and be teams (I first heard of him when he torched us). no one really gave him a chance bc he didn't look the part. waived twice bc he didn't look the part. lights up NBA but ppl like sas just waiting for him to fail bc he doesn't look the part. one thing about this guy - he just continually proves ppl wrong. at some point you just need to stop betting against the guy. and for ppl who continually remark on his subpar athleticism - you're doing it bc of the way he looks. the guy is extremely fast and quick and strong.
 
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for me the most telling thing is this: the guy at all levels has proven people wrong. nocal hs player of the yr (like Kidd). no d1 scholarships bc he didn't look the part. top performer at harvard, huge games against acc and be teams (I first heard of him when he torched us). no one really gave him a chance bc he didn't look the part. waived twice bc he didn't look the part. lights up NBA but ppl like sas just waiting for him to fail bc he doesn't look the part. one thing about this guy - he just continually proves ppl wrong. at some point you just need to stop betting against the guy. and for ppl who continually remark on his subpar athleticism - you're doing it bc of the way he looks. the guy is extremely fast and quick and strong.

Great post. People continue to overlook him because he did not look the part. Here is a shocker, Lin tested faster than Derrick Rose, John Wall and Kyrie Irving during their pre-draft BAM assessment. He is way more athletically than people give him credit for. He does not blow by people in the NBA because he is slow.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/03/life-in-the-fast-lane/comment-page-1/#comment-2118367

BAM gives three numbers: average speed, start speed, and top-end speed. BAM translates this into miles per hour. Average speed is calculated by an algorithm that averages start speed and top speed. Start speed is the first burst of speed, the acceleration phase. Top speed is shifting gears out of the acceleration to one’s peak speed. Here’s how Lin’s BAM numbers compare in the 25 yard sprint.
AVERAGE SPEED
Jeremy Lin: 16.66 mph
Derrick Rose: 16.60 mph
John Wall: 16.48 mph
Kyrie Irving: 15.67 mph
Lin wins this battle.
START SPEED
Lin: 13.93 mph
Wall: 13.25 mph
Irving: 12.64 mph
For Rose, BAM has only average speed data.
Lin wins this battle too.
TOP SPEED
Lin: 18.85 mph
Wall: 19.30 mph
Irving: 18.74 mph
Lin comes in second to Wall.
No one knows what is Jeremy Lin's ceiling. He has holes in his game but last year was really his rookie season. Jeremy Lin himself even said recently he has no clue what his ceiling is either. All I know he has been proving people wrong his entire life and I am 100% convinced he will do it again in Houston. Knicks will regret this day for years to come.
 

Waquoit

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I don't get the big deal about sample size. We all saw what the guy can do against major league competition, I think that's more of a pass/fail thing. If the guy couldn't play he wouldn't have had so many good games. He's better now than Kidd and Felton put together.
 
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Anyone that uses something Stephen A. said as support for their argument loses any and all credibility. He is a massive and racist.
 
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More facts are coming out now. Here is a nice interview with Lin from his hometown paper. He cleared up few more things:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/=/jeremy-lin/ci_21139356/?source=inthenews

"I didn't go back to them and ask for more money," Lin said. "It wasn't like they gave me the choice to sign one of the two and I chose the one that would hurt the Knicks. I had one contract offer. That was it."

Couple more things about Lin:

1. Houston was the one who made the 1st offer. By the time Lin got to Vegas to sign, they changed the offer to 3 years $25M to make it more difficult for Knicks to match. According to other sources, it was Rocket owner's idea to do that to make it very difficult for Knicks to match. Lin had only one offer in front of him so he signed.

2. Lin said if it is all about money, he could have landed endorsement deals well over $100M+ last year. He only picked 3 companies out of the bunch.

3. He said he will always have doubters. His plan to only get better and ignore the doubters.
 

8893

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That's a great card.

And Lin needs to stop talking about it. Either the CCT article is poorly written or he is starting to contradict himself (and his agents) more and more. He is a good kid and good story, but this pollyanna stuff is start to get a bit annoying.

As I've said, if he wanted to stay in New York (which is now less clear than ever), he should have told his agents that was a priority. As it turns out, he didn't need to go back to Houston to ask for a max contract that would send him away from New York; his agents had already asked for exactly that in the first instance, and had told any team who listened that the Knicks were unlikely to match a max third year. It was only when the Rockets got desperate that they decided to take the chance.
 
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All of this is silly, I'm not denying that Lin is a good athlete and gets that part of his makeup questioned because of his race but just watch those guys play, do you really think he is faster than Rose or Irving? This is like people getting gassed off of Harrison Barnes combine numbers and forgetting the fact that all those athletic "gifts" did for him in 2 years at UNC was show that he can take 2 dribbles and then step back for a pull up jumper. When did people stop watching basketball and start letting numbers dictate everything?

Great post. People continue to overlook him because he did not look the part. Here is a shocker, Lin tested faster than Derrick Rose, John Wall and Kyrie Irving during their pre-draft BAM assessment. He is way more athletically than people give him credit for. He does not blow by people in the NBA because he is slow.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/03/life-in-the-fast-lane/comment-page-1/#comment-2118367

BAM gives three numbers: average speed, start speed, and top-end speed. BAM translates this into miles per hour. Average speed is calculated by an algorithm that averages start speed and top speed. Start speed is the first burst of speed, the acceleration phase. Top speed is shifting gears out of the acceleration to one’s peak speed. Here’s how Lin’s BAM numbers compare in the 25 yard sprint.
AVERAGE SPEED
Jeremy Lin: 16.66 mph
Derrick Rose: 16.60 mph
John Wall: 16.48 mph
Kyrie Irving: 15.67 mph
Lin wins this battle.
START SPEED
Lin: 13.93 mph
Wall: 13.25 mph
Irving: 12.64 mph
For Rose, BAM has only average speed data.
Lin wins this battle too.
TOP SPEED
Lin: 18.85 mph
Wall: 19.30 mph
Irving: 18.74 mph
Lin comes in second to Wall.
No one knows what is Jeremy Lin's ceiling. He has holes in his game but last year was really his rookie season. Jeremy Lin himself even said recently he has no clue what his ceiling is either. All I know he has been proving people wrong his entire life and I am 100% convinced he will do it again in Houston. Knicks will regret this day for years to come.
 
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All of this is silly, I'm not denying that Lin is a good athlete and gets that part of his makeup questioned because of his race but just watch those guys play, do you really think he is faster than Rose or Irving? This is like people getting gassed off of Harrison Barnes combine numbers and forgetting the fact that all those athletic "gifts" did for him in 2 years at UNC was show that he can take 2 dribbles and then step back for a pull up jumper. When did people stop watching basketball and start letting numbers dictate everything?

I don't just think, I know. I watched Lin against D Rose and D Rose could not go around him when they were matched 1 on 1. Lin is definitely more athletic than Irving. I also watched Lin blew by multiple NBA players over and over. Those things are not flukes. Lin vs. Rose highlights:



You are right numbers are one thing, but seeing it live against other players is something else. Lin had no problem taking many NBA players off the dribble. Why do you think many NBA teams started to constantly double/trap him on top of the key later on?
 
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yea, your Lin fanboyism is on overload right now. If your boy looks like in Houston you're gonna be on notice.
 
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LOL at Lin being a better athlete than Rose. (He's comparable to Irving, but I'm not comfortable saying who's better until I see a full season of both.)

If you're not related to or sleeping with Lin, then he really needs to take out a restraining order against you. Your obsession has passed over into "creepy" territory.
 
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LOL at Lin being a better athlete than Rose. (He's comparable to Irving, but I'm not comfortable saying who's better until I see a full season of both.)

If you're not related to or sleeping with Lin, then he really needs to take out a restraining order against you. Your obsession has passed over into "creepy" territory.

LOL at your dumba** opinion. At least I brought facts to a debate where you just mouth off like a 10 year little dips*it. What is with your obsession with sleeping with the guy? Are you hiding something we don't know? Why don't you come out of the closet so we don't have to guess?

BTW, learn to read too. I never said he is a better athlete. The numbers don't lie. He is pretty quick but we are splitting hair here. No one is trying to convince you of anything. You believe whatever you want. I am sure you are the same type of the guy who thought earth was a square back in the old days too.

This is a basketball forum. We are in the off season and we are talking basketball. If you can't debate, then STFU.
 
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