Knicks let Lin go to the Rockets

[champs99and04]

Somebody please explain to me why re-signing Lin would be financially crippling to the Knicks? He's at a more than reasonable 5 million per year these next two seasons, and even though the 15 million in year three would come with a huge penalty, Lin will more than make that up. I don't think the Knicks are hurting for money. This seems like a pride thing with Dolan to me.

 

[visitor123]

I can't help you with your reading comprehension, but I will wear your labeling me a class A as a badge of honor in any event.


I get that. How does that translate into neither them nor Lin structuring the contract? That's exactly what they did. More power to them, as it seems that they got exactly what they wanted. And the Knicks' ability to match had nothing to do with them being over the cap; it was solely because they were his existing team, which also significantly limited their ability to offer him anything close without having an offer sheet to match. Houston also had other options, including a fourth year (or more). But in the end they chose the one most effective in terms of getting them what they wanted. Again, kudos to them because it worked.

Every sentence in the OP post was wrong: It was not $8.5M per year to the Knicks; Lin and the Rockets did structure the contract (twice, in fact); being over the cap is not what afforded the Knicks the opportunity to match; the Rockets had other options (although likely less effective for their purposes); and the tax on Kidd and Felton combined is a small fraction of what it would have been on Lin.

No. If you're going to be so sure I'm wrong on everything single thing then have a clue about what you're talking about.

The Knicks can match any amount if they are under the cap with enough space to match. The Knicks have Lin's early bird rights. Bird rights are an exception used for teams to offer their own free agents salaries while being over the cap. The Knicks don't have Lin's full bird rights and therefore cannot offer him any amount. Only up to the MLE in the first 2 years until he gains full bird rights. It has everything to do with being over the cap. Since the Knicks are over the cap, under the old CBA they would have lost Lin to any contract over the MLE like the Cavs lost Boozer and how the Warriors lost Arenas. Under the new CBA the Knicks are able to match with an inflated salary in the 3rd year scraping the standard raises of 4.5% and 7.5%.

 

[8893]

Exactly this. I am still livid and this has killed any of my enthusiasm for the Knicks this upcoming season.

Everyone here saying Lin is average is full of it too. Did anyone actually watch the games? Lin was a hell of a player that had the ability to make all his teammates rise with him.

But of course, he must suck because he had a bad game against the eventual champions with Wade, James and company foaming at the mouth to shut him down. Do people now think James Harden sucks? He had 4 bad games vs. Miami in the Finals and he's been in the league for a few seasons.

That's another thing, how can you possibly judge Lin will be average based on this 25 game run? How many players in the NBA get significantly worse with more court time and experience? Look at the numbers, look at the wins, look at the fandom. I never saw anything like it.

The fact that our piece of owner got caught up in some petty drama is just truly indicative of his embarrassingly poor decision making and how he took a proud franchise and has ran it into the ground.

The Knicks finally got the one lucky break they have needed for years and instead of keeping Lin, they let him walk for nothing. Just so fcking typical.

What's nonsensical is a billionaire owner not resigning the best thing to happen to the franchise in over a decade for all of $5M.

I don't want to hear the luxury tax spin either. That's not specific to Lin, if they didn't want to pay the tax you don't sign Novak, Camby, Kidd and Felton.

You sign the guy that has a chance to be a star and gave the Knicks their best stretch of fun, entertaining and winning basketball since 1999.

Lin doesn't suck. I don't see anyone saying that he does. He is also not a star. I think it is fair to say that his chances of being a star PG in the NBA are about the same of his chances of sucking and being relegated to a backup again. The best bet is that he is a serviceable starter on a non-playoff team. In other words, average. Houston was the only team desperate enough to pay him for the chance that he might be more than that. And that's the same team that cut him last year because they thought Lowry and Dragic were both better (which, from what I have read and heard, most NBA GMs still believe).

There was no greater fan of the story than I was while it lasted. I'm a romantic and I love that type of stuff. But I also realize when it is too good to be true, and that's where I end up on Lin. I think he will be good. I don't think he'll be great. If the Knicks kept him there would have been pressure to play him for non-basketball reasons even if he didn't work in this system and/or deserve it. I think that was a recipe for disaster. Or, continuing disaster in the case of the Knicks.

 

[8893]

No. If you're going to be so sure I'm wrong on everything single thing then have a clue about what you're talking about.

The Knicks can match any amount if they are under the cap with enough space to match. The Knicks have Lin's early bird rights. Bird rights are an exception used for teams to offer their own free agents salaries while being over the cap. The Knicks don't have Lin's full bird rights and therefore cannot offer him any amount. Only up to the MLE in the first 2 years until he gains full bird rights. It has everything to do with being over the cap. Since the Knicks are over the cap, under the old CBA they would have lost Lin to any contract over the MLE like the Cavs lost Boozer and how the Warriors lost Arenas. Under the new CBA the Knicks are able to match with an inflated salary in the 3rd year scraping the standard raises of 4.5% and 7.5%.

In other words, the Knicks had the right to match another team's offer to Lin whether they were over the cap or not. That was my point.

 

[visitor123]

In other words, the Knicks had the right to match another team's offer to Lin whether they were over the cap or not. That was my point.

The Knicks can only match an offer of the MLE in the first two years because the Knicks were 1. over the cap and 2. did not have Lin's full bird rights. Your point was that Lin/Rockets structured the contract in a way to make it difficult for the Knicks to match. It doesn't matter what the Rockets offered. The Knicks can only match 5/5.5/x.

If the Rockets had 10 million under the cap, they can offer Lin up to 30 million for 3 years. If the Knicks want to match it would be 5/5.5/19.5. They don't have to structure the deal in that way, it's the only way the deal can be structured under the rules of the CBA. However it would only cost the Rockets an average of 10 million per year on their salary cap. Lin's deal will cost the Rockets 8.3 million per year on their cap.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Lin doesn't suck. I don't see anyone saying that he does. He is also not a star. I think it is fair to say that his chances of being a star PG in the NBA are about the same of his chances of sucking and being relegated to a backup again. The best bet is that he is a serviceable starter on a non-playoff team. In other words, average. Houston was the only team desperate enough to pay him for the chance that he might be more than that. And that's the same team that cut him last year because they thought Lowry and Dragic were both better (which, from what I have read and heard, most NBA GMs still believe).

There was no greater fan of the story than I was while it lasted. I'm a romantic and I love that type of stuff. But I also realize when it is too good to be true, and that's where I end up on Lin. I think he will be good. I don't think he'll be great. If the Knicks kept him there would have been pressure to play him for non-basketball reasons even if he didn't work in this system and/or deserve it. I think that was a recipe for disaster. Or, continuing disaster in the case of the Knicks.

How can you say he isn't a star? He didn't just have a good couple of games, he put up record breaking numbers to start his career as a starting point guard. Young players get better with age, especially point guards, why are people resigned to think he'll just be average?

Lin had court vision and the special trait to involve everyone and make the game easier for his teammates. The exact opposite of Carmelo and Amare.

He would have been paid $5M, $5M, and then $15M. Even at worst, if he's an average PG, $5M/year is a very fair salary. If he tanks? Then they could have waived him and spread the luxury tax hit over a couple of years.

I'm pissed because this wasn't a basketball decision, this wasn't a salary cap decision, it wasn't even a luxury tax decision

Dolan/Melo blackballed Lin out of town due to their own pettiness and insecurity.

I don't know if Lin will be a Top flight PG, but what after all these years of mediocrity, overspending and general mismanagement of the franchise, how do you not even take the chance!

 

[8893]

I'm not a Dolan fan. I am a Knick fan. I was also a Lin fan, and I'm not rooting against him now that he's gone. But like it or not Dolan writes the checks and calls the shots. I'm sure I'm not as smart as Lin, but even I realize that you don't piss off the guy writing the checks. If that's what Lin did, and if he wanted to stay in New York, he ducked up. Period.

 

[visitor123]

Or maybe you can look at past evidence and realize the guy writing the checks is a unpredictable guy and Lin could have gone out and did exactly what he thought the Knicks wanted him to do (go out and find the best deal for yourself and be matched) and still have 'ducked up'. Blame the NY media for prematurely reporting on the details of a deal that wasn't done. Blame NY for public announcing their intentions before they were presented an offer and giving the Rockets a chance to up their offer after they lost Lowry & Dragic.

 

[8893]

Blame NY for public announcing their intentions before they were presented an offer and giving the Rockets a chance to up their offer after they lost Lowry & Dragic.

I agree fully with this. If the Knicks wanted to keep Lin--and I'm not convinced of that--they ducked up, too.

As for Lin doing what "he thought the Knicks wanted him to do," I find it hard to believe that a guy as bright as he is didn't realize the likely consequences of re-doing the contract the Knicks said they would match to make it between 200% and 400% more expensive for them.

 

[businesslawyer]

I agree fully with this. If the Knicks wanted to keep Lin--and I'm not convinced of that--they ducked up, too.

As for Lin doing what "he thought the Knicks wanted him to do," I find it hard to believe that a guy as bright as he is didn't realize the likely consequences of re-doing the contract the Knicks said they would match to make it between 200% and 400% more expensive for them.

You keep ignoring this but I'll try one more time. Lin and the Rockets reached a verbal agreement, but didn't have a term sheet. the Knicks said they would match. the Rockets then gave Lin a different proposal, which was the only proposal from anyone that Lin had.

The position that LIn did anything to the Knicks has no basis in the facts no matter how many times you walk out on a limb and repeat yourself.

 

[Gurleyman]

I didn't have a dog in the fight, but the reaction to the Heat game was the ultimate example of confirmation bias. People were waiting for the first bad night to say, "ya see - I knew it." It took 10 games to happen, but once it did, the axe went into his back.

I watched the game and Miami double-teamed him - hard - off every screen, didn't let him breathe, and since there was nobody on that version of the Knicks to take any pressure off him, he had a stinker. But he faced the type of defense that the Pistons would throw at Jordan in his prime. Bad games happen to everyone in every sport when new wrinkles get thrown at you - you watch the film, see what went wrong and learn from it.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk

 

[8893]

You keep ignoring this but I'll try one more time. Lin and the Rockets reached a verbal agreement, but didn't have a term sheet. the Knicks said they would match. the Rockets then gave Lin a different proposal, which was the only proposal from anyone that Lin had.

The position that LIn did anything to the Knicks has no basis in the facts no matter how many times you walk out on a limb and repeat yourself.

It has been widely reported--and not denied by Lin or anyone else--that after the Knicks said they would match the first offer Lin and his agent went back to Houston and pushed for a higher guarantee in the third year, which they apparently had hoped for from the start. By then, Houston had lost both Lowry and Dragic, so they were also willing to up the ante.

You seem to be ignoring that Lin had to agree to re-do the offer in order for it to be redone. Do you have a source for your insistence that Houston unilaterally took the first offer off the table? If so, that would be the first I've heard of it.

I'm not blaming Lin. I'm also not absolving him from some responsibility for playing this badly if he wanted to stay in New York.

 

[visitor123]

It has been widely reported--and not denied by Lin or anyone else--that after the Knicks said they would match the first offer Lin and his agent went back to Houston and pushed for a higher guarantee in the third year, which they apparently had hoped for from the start. By then, Houston had lost both Lowry and Dragic, so they were also willing to up the ante.

You keep saying that but it has been denied by Jeremy Lin.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/nba/07/18/jeremy-lin-exclusive/index.html

"A backloaded first offer, as widely reported, came to him at four years -- with the fourth as a team option -- and $28.8 million. As news of the offer broke (and Lin's camp says they did not communicate anything to the Knicks before an offer sheet was actually signed), Woodson publicly declared that Lin would "absolutely" be back. But not long after that, the Rockets came back with a revised offer: three years for $25.1 million.

By this point, Lin had no real idea what the Knicks would do. But there also wasn't much choice: He had all of one offer sheet in front of him to consider."

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

I don't think you have any clue how the NBA salary cap works.

Which makes far more sense for most people than the relative few who care, or are crazy, enough to think they know how the NBA salary cap works.

 

[Waquoit]

"Mutually exclusive" and "not inconsistent" are "mutually exclusive" and "inconsistent."

Not in this context.

 

[8893]

You keep saying that but it has been denied by Jeremy Lin.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/nba/07/18/jeremy-lin-exclusive/index.html

"A backloaded first offer, as widely reported, came to him at four years -- with the fourth as a team option -- and $28.8 million. As news of the offer broke (and Lin's camp says they did not communicate anything to the Knicks before an offer sheet was actually signed), Woodson publicly declared that Lin would "absolutely" be back. But not long after that, the Rockets came back with a revised offer: three years for $25.1 million.

By this point, Lin had no real idea what the Knicks would do. But there also wasn't much choice: He had all of one offer sheet in front of him to consider."

Yes, I read that earlier today. I read it very carefully, in fact, looking particularly for Lin's description of the way the second offer sheet came about, and for any denial that "Lin and his agent went back to Houston and pushed for a higher guarantee in the third year, which they apparently had hoped for from the start." I didn't see it then, and I don't see it now. What I did find interesting was that he denied going back to the Knicks before an offer sheet was signed, but he didn't deny going back to the Rockets to push for a higher guarantee (which ended up being the deal-breaker for the Knicks). I found it curious by omission.

I've agreed that, "by then, Houston had lost both Lowry and Dragic, so they were also willing to up the ante," and I understand that Lin was well within his rights to push for the best deal he could get, and he did. But I don't get where people are coming up with the notion that he was some innocent, helpless in all of this.

One other thing I don't hear being discussed by those who blame the Knicks for not locking up Lin beforehand is the Knicks' limited ability to do that under the CBA rules, and the fact that they couldn't even have offered him what Houston originally offered unless Houston (or some other team) made the offer first and they matched it. If Lin wasn't satisfied with Houston's first offer, and the Knicks could not have offered the same out of the gates, what makes people think he would have accepted less from the Knicks before testing the market?

I like Lin. I wish he stayed. I think he is better than either Kidd (at this point) or Felton. I think Dolan is an idiot who handled this poorly, to put it mildly. But I don't think it is as black-and-white as many people want to make it. I think that ignores the dynamic of a fluid situation involving three parties who each had a part in making it come about, and I don't think it was an easy decision for any one of them. I couldn't care less if people hate on Dolan; he's earned it. I just don't like tidy, convenient and intellectually lazy characterizations that over-simplify the realities of a complex situation like this one.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Yes, I read that earlier today. I read it very carefully, in fact, looking particularly for Lin's description of the way the second offer sheet came about, and for any denial that "Lin and his agent went back to Houston and pushed for a higher guarantee in the third year, which they apparently had hoped for from the start." I didn't see it then, and I don't see it now. What I did find interesting was that he denied going back to the Knicks before an offer sheet was signed, but he didn't deny going back to the Rockets to push for a higher guarantee (which ended up being the deal-breaker for the Knicks). I found it curious by omission.

I've agreed that, "by then, Houston had lost both Lowry and Dragic, so they were also willing to up the ante," and I understand that Lin was well within his rights to push for the best deal he could get, and he did. But I don't get where people are coming up with the notion that he was some innocent, helpless in all of this.

One other thing I don't hear being discussed by those who blame the Knicks for not locking up Lin beforehand is the Knicks' limited ability to do that under the CBA rules, and the fact that they couldn't even have offered him what Houston originally offered unless Houston (or some other team) made the offer first and they matched it. If Lin wasn't satisfied with Houston's first offer, and the Knicks could not have offered the same out of the gates, what makes people think he would have accepted less from the Knicks before testing the market?

I like Lin. I wish he stayed. I think he is better than either Kidd (at this point) or Felton. I think Dolan is an idiot who handled this poorly, to put it mildly. But I don't think it is as black-and-white as many people want to make it. I think that ignores the dynamic of a fluid situation involving three parties who each had a part in making it come about, and I don't think it was an easy decision for any one of them. I couldn't care less if people hate on Dolan; he's earned it. I just don't like tidy, convenient and intellectually lazy characterizations that over-simplify the realities of a complex situation like this one.

It is funny you keep blaming Lin for this. Lin had one offer in front of him. Let me say it again, Lin had one offer in front of him. Knicks never communicated with him during the process. Knicks spoke to him once during the entire free agency period? Knicks never made one single formal offer to Lin and his agents. Lin wants to play basketball and Houston was the once one who gave him the contract. Houston really needs a PG and they went all out to get Lin.

From Lin's perspective, he will be paid $8M per year which is pretty average salary for a NBA starting guard. Houston let Dragic go and his body of work isn't better than Lin's. Dragic got $8.5M per year over 4 years. Reality is that's the market value for a PG and Lin got paid accordingly.

As for luxury tax, that's not Lin's issue. Why blame the tax on Lin alone? Why not blame it on STAT, Melo, Chandler or any other Knick? All of their salaries are part of that luxury tax problem. Even if Knicks matched Lin offer, they could have let Lin play 2 years and do something to offload some salaries before year 3 to minimize the luxury tax hit. They could have moved STAT or someone for expiring contracts or whatever. There are other ways to solve the problem before year 3.

In the end, Houston wanted Lin much more than NY. Houston got their PG and rest is history. Oh yeah, saying Lin is average is super ignorant as well. Lin has all the tools to be a super star in this league. He is smart with the basketball, he is one of the quickest PGs out there and he really can attack the basket. You just watch, he will prove doubters like you wrong yet again in Houston. In 2 years, Lin will be a huge star in Houston and Knicks will be kicking themselves before they messed up yet again.

 

[8893]

Wow. I give up. I should have known better.

 

[StoweD210]

You guys should really all be sports writers

What, and sell out? Write what the Man tells us to write?

No way. Boneyard 4ever, baby.

 

[UConn990411]

So much discussion over such a mediocre player.

 

[Kitaman]

So much discussion over such a mediocre player.

Think Johnnie Selvie ......................................... again his fault.

 

[businesslawyer]

Wow. I give up. I should have known better.

It must be hard being the only one in the world who "gets" something and being unable to convince the world that you are right and they are wrong. Have a scotch.

 

[8893]

It must be hard being the only one in the world who "gets" something and being unable to convince the world that you are right and they are wrong. Have a scotch.

Not by a long shot. 29 of 30 NBA franchises apparently don't need to be convinced. One was desperate enough to take a leap of faith. I can live knowing that some folks on a college hoops message board don't get it. The only thing that annoyed me was the lack of reading comprehension, and that's what I should have known better than to expect here. I never blamed Lin, and I'm not among his doubters. I'm just taking a sober look at a situation that many non-basketball people here are judging with emotion instead.

 

[businesslawyer]

Not by a long shot. 29 of 30 NBA franchises apparently don't need to be convinced. One was desperate enough to take a leap of faith. I can live knowing that some folks on a college hoops message board don't get it. The only thing that annoyed me was the lack of reading comprehension, and that's what I should have known better than to expect here. I never blamed Lin, and I'm not among his doubters. I'm just taking a sober look at a situation that many non-basketball people here are judging with emotion instead.

Good grief. The fact that everyone posting on this thread thinks you have gone off the deep end has nothing to do with whether Lin is worth that kind of money. Reasonable minds can differ on that. If that is all you think you've said ....

 

[8893]

Good grief. The fact that everyone posting on this thread thinks you have gone off the deep end has nothing to do with whether Lin is worth that kind of money. Reasonable minds can differ on that. If that is all you think you've said ....

Ha! You, Waqy, WCH and Deadrody are "everyone." Enjoy your company my friend. Yep, that's a quality crew you got there!

 

[nomar]

8893 has been posting on the Yard since the get-go and of all the people who tend to go off the deep end (several of whom are commenting in this thread), he ain't one of them.

 

[8893]

8893 has been posting on the Yard since the get-go and of all the people who tend to go off the deep end (several of whom are commenting in this thread), he ain't one of them.

Thanks, nomar. Hey, how could I not "like" that post?

Seriously though, it seems the dividing line between sane and "off the deep end," at least as far as BL is concerned, is whether you believe that Lin and his agents played any part in re-doing the offer and stacking the third year to the limit, which was too far for New York to go. I believe they did. And anyone who has been following the progress of this situation since at least June should see that, too, imo. Back then--even before the arbitration decision--Lin and his agents (he was being repped by both Roger Montgomery and Williams & Connolly) made clear that they wanted test the market and try to get another team to back load the new contract to the max in the third year. They knew the only way to do that was to get another team involved, and they also openly acknowledged that that would make it less predictable whether he would end up with the Knicks, precisely because of the difficulty they would have in the third year under the luxury tax rules. When Houston's initial offer didn't max the third year, New York was openly relieved and pledged to match it.

In BL's world view, Houston unilaterally withdrew that offer and surprised Lin with a restructured offer, which he had no choice but to accept. I don't see it that way. I think Houston and Lin were both motivated to stack that third year, each for a different reason. As I've said, it took two to tango. To portray Lin as a wide-eyed innocent who was hostage to the process overlooks the facts of how it came about.

 

[Waquoit]

Ha! You, Waqy, WCH and Deadrody are "everyone." Enjoy your company my friend. Yep, that's a quality crew you got there!

I was think the same thing! Quality! I'm honored!

 

[businesslawyer]

Thanks, nomar. Hey, how could I not "like" that post?

Seriously though, it seems the dividing line between sane and "off the deep end," at least as far as BL is concerned, is whether you believe that Lin and his agents played any part in re-doing the offer and stacking the third year to the limit, which was too far for New York to go. I believe they did. And anyone who has been following the progress of this situation since at least June should see that, too, imo. Back then--even before the arbitration decision--Lin and his agents (he was being repped by both Roger Montgomery and Williams & Connolly) made clear that they wanted test the market and try to get another team to back load the new contract to the max in the third year. They knew the only way to do that was to get another team involved, and they also openly acknowledged that that would make it less predictable whether he would end up with the Knicks, precisely because of the difficulty they would have in the third year under the luxury tax rules. When Houston's initial offer didn't max the third year, New York was openly relieved and pledged to match it.

In BL's world view, Houston unilaterally withdrew that offer and surprised Lin with a restructured offer, which he had no choice but to accept. I don't see it that way. I think Houston and Lin were both motivated to stack that third year, each for a different reason. As I've said, it took two to tango. To portray Lin as a wide-eyed innocent who was hostage to the process overlooks the facts of how it came about.

Two points, and then I will try much, much harder to walk away from this thread.

1. There is no way under the CBA to "stack" the contract except by increasing the third year. Houston offered Lin the max it was allowed to in years 1 and 2. So you are saying Lin allowed the contract to be "stacked" when a far better use of the English language would be that Lin allowed Houston to offer him more money. Wow -- what a shit. Imagine him wanting a bigger contract as opposed to a smaller contract.

2. Similarly, Lin is not being disloyal because he allowed Houston to offer him more money. He is acting in the only manner that would make him less than totally insane. (I will not say Linsane just because.) To argue "disloyalty," you have to show that Lin could have gotten as good a contract in a way that was easier for the Knicks to match. But you can't do that. Years 1 and 2 were maxed out -- if there was to be more guaranteed money, it had to be in Year 3.

 

[Waquoit]

What I'm really enjoying in this thread from our Knick-fan friends is the way they are killing Lin on his way out of town. Calling him overrated, disloyal, he wouldn't play hurt... This is a guy who saved your season! He got Melo to step his game and in return Melo stabbed him in the back. Just like the fans are doing now. The Knicks are actually acting just like the way the Sox get accused of acting. And the fans are running with it! I know there is a great deal of Knick-Yank fan overlap. That level of compartmentalizing is truly a skill.