It's come down to this for the Lady Vols

[HuskyNan]

2nd time in a WEEK that I have heard that phrase (never before in my nearly 50 yrs of life)... learn something new every day. I had to look up its origin (still found nothing concrete, Tonto?)

My husband's family says it all the time and has since I first met him. Just and old saying, I guess.

 

[HuskyNan]

OK, one more time. It is wrong to conflate the piss-ant penny ante "37 theses" or however many actual formal charges were filed; Kibs' sign, ESPNgate, etc., which did not really amount to much, with the real outrage, which was the innuendo that Geno had somehow committed some recruiting crime that was simply too dark and dastardly for decent people to even mention, especially an innocent lady like PHS, and was so nefarious that it left her no choice but to cancel the series. It was this latter that was inexcusable, and has led to all of the outrageous speculation among LV fans as to just what that outrage might have been. Pink elephants, outright bribery, town houses, etc. ad nauseum. She would not say what the misbehavior was; "Geno knows what he did", nor would she admit that what he actually did was nothing.

That said, I think that Jerlis may be right about the role of the oncoming mental problem in the whole thing. But maybe not. PHS said something off the top of her head about what should be done to coaches who break the rules, probably thinking about the situation that was roiling UT at the time, and when she realized that her statement sounded disloyal to her own school, and deeply resenting Geno's having signed Maya, she spun what she had said into an accusation against UConn. When she was pressed for details, she could not, of course, supply them because there weren't any. But she could not face the embarrassment of saying so, so she had to go on with the innuendo of unspecified dark doings, and she did. There is no way to know whether she was totally herself when this happened, and it really doesn't matter, because the entire UT structure bought into the innuendo, making all of them accessories. No one had the temerity to say what they probably knew; that the whole thing was a PHS screw-up. Which is what it actually was. And it has come to pass that UT is the one who has suffered, not UConn. UConn is doing just fine, and UT is now one with LaTech and Old Dominion.

Thus, Summitt's comment last week -- which, frankly, really surprised many people because she had steadfastly avoided the topic -- has riled up UConn fans. They feel that if Summitt has actual evidence of Auriemma and his program breaking recruiting rules -- beyond that realistically inconsequential secondary violation -- then she needs to explain what that is.

Saying, "There's a reason we don't play them," in the context of a discussion about recruiting integrity is a direct but utterly vague accusation. By leaving it so open-ended, it allows people to assume -- or at least consider -- the worst. That's not fair to Auriemma, his program or the university.

Pat Summitt's words fuel fire, ESPN

For me, personally, the worst actions were those that directly affected human beings, not programs or institutions. Poor Kibitzer, an elderly combat veteran, was raked over the coals for handing a freaking cardboard sign to Ernie DelleDonne - from his wheelchair. I will NEVER forgive that. Sue and Diana's reputations were impugned but it was Maya and her mom who were called vile names by the Tin Foil Hat Brigade and that was most unforgivable.

I wrote a lot more but deleted it. While it's good to bring out the smelly laundry once in a while to air it out, I'd rather not leave it on display permanently. This topic remains open, but for me, I'm done.

 

[Zorro]

So are the LV!

 

[Bestiarius]

Goodness, we've all but forgiven (at least made our peace) with the holocaust; certainly (most) don't blame the current crop of Germans for that, even the majority of Jews

The difference here is that Germany and the German people have apologized and made reparations for Third Reich war crimes. The current crop of Tennessee administrators and fans have not made amends, and worse, continue to perpetuate the unsubstantiated innuendos.

 

[bags27]

The difference here is that Germany and the German people have apologized and made reparations for Third Reich war crimes. The current crop of Tennessee administrators and fans have not made amends, and worse, continue to perpetuate the unsubstantiated innuendos.

wow...I have made a lot of inappropriate comparisons in my life, Bestiarius, so I fully appreciate how that happens.....

 

[Bayareahusky]

The difference here is that Germany and the German people have apologized and made reparations for Third Reich war crimes. The current crop of Tennessee administrators and fans have not made amends, and worse, continue to perpetuate the unsubstantiated innuendos.

Ya not to expand on a subject that many avoid.,.... but having been to Germany several times in the last few years, I admire the way they have acknowledged and apologized profusely for atrocities that are in no way defendable..... at least the country has done that

as opposed to a country in Asia in same war that to this day still denies much of what happened as to their chronology and related aggression

and of course ..... as opposed to the deafening silence from down south regarding ANYTHING substantive regarding what happened 10 years ago..... Rumors and innuendo, yes, but nothing but speculative noise and amplified crosstalk

 

[connboy77]

I use to be a Tennessee hater, but not now; it is extremely difficult to hate a 12 and 8 team!

 

[CL82]

My husband's family says it all the time and has since I first met him. Just and old saying, I guess.

Yeah, I've heard it just a bit differently: "Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" Must be a regional difference, I guess.

 

[EricSD]

I use to be a Tennessee hater, but not now; it is extremely difficult to hate a 12 and 8 team!

Not for me...

 

[JoePgh]

If Holly resigns or is fired after this season, and a new head coach is hired who was nowhere near Knoxville or even the SEC at the time that these events occurred, would that be enough for you hardliners to bury the hatchet?

At some point, shouldn't the interests of current fans and (completely innocent) players on both teams in seeing or playing a good game of basketball take precedence over the pursuit of these hoary feuds?

While the University of Tennessee did have a role in what happened, I get the sense from the tone and content of many hardliner posts that a major part of the impetus for their position is the behavior of fans on message boards rather than the behavior of the University itself. In my opinion, that should be completely irrelevant, not to mention insignificant.

 

[Uhuru]

I have no tremendous animosity for Tennessee women's basketball. I don't keep current on what they say or how they do. I only follow the top flight collegiate programs.

 

[Zorro]

I must admit to not being around when all this happened
And it sounds pretty terrible.
But we have forgiven Japan for Pearl Harbor.
Twenty years ago, there were fears that the US was to become an economic colony of theirs.
I remember a much celebrated piece in the Times by James Reston
About our war aims in WWII ending with how (ultimately) we had lost.

Goodness, we've all but forgiven (at least made our peace) with the holocaust; certainly (most) don't blame the current crop of Germans for that, even the majority of Jews, I know my parent's gen had big problems with that.

It's time for the grownups and intelligentsia on the various boards (and the intellectual level here is immense) to suck it up, understand that forgiveness is a very positive emotion, good for one's soul and to drop this hatred from a bygone era. No matter how dastardly their actions, we prevailed, they are on the verge of losing everything, It is time to forgive and move on.

In the business world, these things happen all the time...happened to me....at a major, major foundation meeting one of the finest most, respected instrumentalists in the city gave (behind closed doors) a 15-minute diatribe, dedicated to my evils and untrustfulness. It went a long way towards torpedoing my career in town. It came from nowhere, was for the most part completely untrue, did incalculable harm. Why did it so unexpectedly occur?...Because, despite his wonderful playing, we had discovered an even greater artist for the position he held, and had started the process whereby he would be ultimately replaced. Now, decades later, the anger and frustration which he had carried inside for years finally had a forum to express itself in torpedoing my organization (unsuccessful), and me personally (did better at that).

At the time, I was shocked, dismayed. After I left the organization (hardly voluntarily), that I founded and single-handidly made into one of the finest of its type in town, I went on with my life, prospered in new challenges, and can say with great honesty that I have no malice towards him, no regrets for the disruption it caused, respect his wonderful playing, and if I were to be given the opportunity to engage the young artist who replaced him and went on to be one of the 3 or 4 Maya Moore types around whom you build a team, I would do it again. Even knowing the consequences.

And most importantly, for many years I have been able to greed this gentleman amicably, without rancor. It's over it happened, move on.

In the case of UConn, Geno and Maya prevailed, the team never skipped a beat...oh, we may have missed out on a recruit or two for a season or two, didn't win every single championship (would have if EDD would have stayed) but Pat's slander was of no consequence. did as much harm to her as us. UConn is yet, more dominant than it was.

it is really past due to bury the hatchet on this one and give those guys a break....For our own sakes if not theirs.

Excellent sentiments, Michael, and, as always, very well written. The problem, however, is that this particular calumny is NOT a thing of the past; it has proved to have tremendous legs with the LV faithful. Again, I am not talking about the actual charges, which, I agree with Nan were nefarious, mean-spirited and vile, but which damaged the reputation of UT rather than that of Geno and UConn, because all knowledgeable people recognized them for what they were, but rather the unspecified Dark Deeds of Geno, which still continue to bubble up. They take various guises, but the common theme is; "Geno must be a sleazebag, because Pat said he was a sleazebag and Pat would not lie. He must have done something so bad that a Southern Lady like Pat could not even publicly state what it was." And neither Holly nor anyone else in the UT organization has shown any inclination to identify these libels as being baseless.

And besides, as Roddick once said when asked about his "rivalry" with Federer; "I really don't think you can call it a rivalry until or unless I actually win a few." What kind of rivalry would it be if every year Uconn kicked the LV butts by 30-50 points?

 

[Wiltonian]

The difference here is that Germany and the German people have apologized and made reparations for Third Reich war crimes. The current crop of Tennessee administrators and fans have not made amends, and worse, continue to perpetuate the unsubstantiated innuendos.

Is this the reason why Japanese Companies favor Tennessee?

FOREIGN INVESTMENT IN TENNESSEE
• 1. Japan, $15.7 billion and 41,262 employees

• 2. Germany, $3.4 billion and 14,933 employees

• 3. Canada, $1.8 billion and 9,795 employees

• 4. United Kingdom, $1.4 billion and 12,987 employees

• 5. Korea, $913 million and 1,270 employees

Source: Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...ompanies-lead-investment-in-tennessee/132141/

 

[CocoHusky]

I have been following women's college basketball since 1990 and I always thought Pat Summit was a great coach and a coach with integrity. Has anyone considered the possibility that her accusations against UConn were a result of paranoia associated with Alzheimer's disease, It is not uncommon with the disease. Also, at the time those accusations were made she was still pretty much all powerful at the U of Tenn and a force within the SEC. It hardly seems strange then that the University and the conference followed through with a formal complaint. I for one don't believe there was any actual malice on Pat's part. It was the disease speaking but at the time no one knew that.

Yes this (Pat's paranoia associated with Alzheimer's disease) has been considered and discussed here many times. As with most things on the Boneyard there is a variety of opinions. If you go back and look at the list of false accusations lodged against UCONN so much of it was easily verifiable (Sue & DT out the country) and trivial ( Kib's sign) that IMO paranoia played a major part. Then there was Pat's "they know what they did" accusation which was almost certainly paranoia.

 

[j66kicker]

If Holly resigns or is fired after this season, and a new head coach is hired who was nowhere near Knoxville or even the SEC at the time that these events occurred, would that be enough for you hardliners to bury the hatchet? Nope - not for me.

At some point, shouldn't the interests of current fans and (completely innocent) players on both teams in seeing or playing a good game of basketball take precedence over the pursuit of these hoary feuds? The players are "guilty" for choosing to go there as far as I'm concerned - no sympathy at all.

While the University of Tennessee did have a role in what happened and they can burn in hell (sports-wise, anyway)

 

[CocoHusky]

I must admit to not being around when all this happened
And it sounds pretty terrible.
But we have forgiven Japan for Pearl Harbor.
Twenty years ago, there were fears that the US was to become an economic colony of theirs.
I remember a much celebrated piece in the Times by James Reston
About our war aims in WWII ending with how (ultimately) we had lost.

Goodness, we've all but forgiven (at least made our peace) with the holocaust; certainly (most) don't blame the current crop of Germans for that, even the majority of Jews, I know my parent's gen had big problems with that.

It's time for the grownups and intelligentsia on the various boards (and the intellectual level here is immense) to suck it up, understand that forgiveness is a very positive emotion, good for one's soul and to drop this hatred from a bygone era. No matter how dastardly their actions, we prevailed, they are on the verge of losing everything, It is time to forgive and move on.

In the business world, these things happen all the time...happened to me....at a major, major foundation meeting one of the finest most, respected instrumentalists in the city gave (behind closed doors) a 15-minute diatribe, dedicated to my evils and untrustfulness. It went a long way towards torpedoing my career in town. It came from nowhere, was for the most part completely untrue, did incalculable harm. Why did it so unexpectedly occur?...Because, despite his wonderful playing, we had discovered an even greater artist for the position he held, and had started the process whereby he would be ultimately replaced. Now, decades later, the anger and frustration which he had carried inside for years finally had a forum to express itself in torpedoing my organization (unsuccessful), and me personally (did better at that).

At the time, I was shocked, dismayed. After I left the organization (hardly voluntarily), that I founded and single-handidly made into one of the finest of its type in town, I went on with my life, prospered in new challenges, and can say with great honesty that I have no malice towards him, no regrets for the disruption it caused, respect his wonderful playing, and if I were to be given the opportunity to engage the young artist who replaced him and went on to be one of the 3 or 4 Maya Moore types around whom you build a team, I would do it again. Even knowing the consequences.

And most importantly, for many years I have been able to greed this gentleman amicably, without rancor. It's over it happened, move on.

In the case of UConn, Geno and Maya prevailed, the team never skipped a beat...oh, we may have missed out on a recruit or two for a season or two, didn't win every single championship (would have if EDD would have stayed) but Pat's slander was of no consequence. did as much harm to her as us. UConn is yet, more dominant than it was.

it is really past due to bury the hatchet on this one and give those guys a break....For our own sakes if not theirs.

There are still active cases of Nazis being hunted as there should be. It is up to the people who suffered for the TN lies and attempted destruction of the program to decided if they want to "suck things up" and move on. Outsider like you and I SHOULD NOT be telling them when it is time or what to do.

 

[Adesmar123]

Yes this (Pat's paranoia associated with Alzheimer's disease) has been considered and discussed here many times. As with most things on the Boneyard there is a variety of opinions. If you go back and look at the list of false accusations lodged against UCONN so much of it was easily verifiable (Sue & DT out the country) and trivial ( Kib's sign) that IMO paranoia played a major part. Then there was Pat's "they know what they did" accusation which was almost certainly paranoia.

I'd also like to remember the "I saved my dog from the racoon" escapade resulting in a broken shoulder. Also the year of "getting men out of my life" except of course for Travis. I just don't believe the former was the real story and the latter sounds like paranoia.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Oh sorry my friend.... no insinuation..... i could cite recent examples verbatim, but this forum does not allow it..... apparently though you are a Vols fan you do not visit the forums.....

Apparently Nan was right and we are talking by each other. I do visit Volnation for amusement and now that I understand your curiously phrased point, through Nan the Interpreter, I agree; they slander directly and by innuendo with gusto. Vols fan hardly. Rocky does not allude to Rockytop, but the Rockies outside my window here in Montana.

 

[pacific 44]

I would bet that 90%of Uconn fans dislike the voles for the same reason i have disliked the Lakers for 60 years.They were the Celtics main rival in the 60's and i grew up in New England. Allegiances very often remain for life and teams have disrupted our comfort zone annoy us.When we have les than wonderful things to say about Tennessee it is because of their past relevancy and our hope that they never again reach that status.We also have equal opportunity schadenfreude for Ms.Muffet and her little tuffits.For most of us it isn't a forgiveness issue,it's just an "i don't like your team and i hope you never win another game" issue.

 

[CocoHusky]

If Holly resigns or is fired after this season, and a new head coach is hired who was nowhere near Knoxville or even the SEC at the time that these events occurred, would that be enough for you hardliners to bury the hatchet?

At some point, shouldn't the interests of current fans and (completely innocent) players on both teams in seeing or playing a good game of basketball take precedence over the pursuit of these hoary feuds?

While the University of Tennessee did have a role in what happened, I get the sense from the tone and content of many hardliner posts that a major part of the impetus for their position is the behavior of fans on message boards rather than the behavior of the University itself. In my opinion, that should be completely irrelevant, not to mention insignificant.

The TN fans on a message should have no more say over administration actions than the Boneyard has over UCONN's actions. Then and now the UT administration remains silent that 37 pages of allegations resulted in a few secondary violations. The UT administration also refuses to acknowledge that many people had their lives destroyed by false allegations. Then is was because Pat essentially hand no boss at UT. Now is because the administration at TN refuses to believe that Pat did anything wrong. Neither is acceptable.

 

[pinotbear]

And besides, as Roddick once said when asked about his "rivalry" with Federer; "I really don't think you can call it a rivalry until or unless I actually win a few." What kind of rivalry would it be if every year Uconn kicked the LV butts by 30-50 points?

.. intensely satisfying...

 

[pinotbear]

Is this the reason why Japanese Companies favor Tennessee?

FOREIGN INVESTMENT IN TENNESSEE
• 1. Japan, $15.7 billion and 41,262 employees

• 2. Germany, $3.4 billion and 14,933 employees

• 3. Canada, $1.8 billion and 9,795 employees

• 4. United Kingdom, $1.4 billion and 12,987 employees

• 5. Korea, $913 million and 1,270 employees

Source: Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...ompanies-lead-investment-in-tennessee/132141/

It's because they can't pronounce "Chevrolet" either...

 

[TroyHouse66]

Zorro-
<<What kind of rivalry would it be if every year Uconn kicked the LV butts by 30-50 points?>>

I, personally, believe that UConn, ethically, must display NO FAVORITISM what-so-ever in organizing its schedule.
Tennessee should be required to stand in line... like everybody else.. to get their butts kicked by 30-50 points!!

 

[Gus Mahler]

The UT administration also refuses to acknowledge that many people had their lives destroyed by false allegations.

Coco: I've not heard this part. Would you please elaborate?

 

[Baroloboy]

Guys/gals. GET OVER IT. If you shoot at the king you better kill him. Pat/Tenn shot at Geno and missed. Geno is still king and Tenn is history--an also ran.

 

[trb123]

The TN fans on a message should have no more say over administration actions than the Boneyard has over UCONN's actions. Then and now the UT administration remains silent that 37 pages of allegations resulted in a few secondary violations. The UT administration also refuses to acknowledge that many people had their lives destroyed by false allegations. Then is was because Pat essentially hand no boss at UT. Now is because the administration at TN refuses to believe that Pat did anything wrong. Neither is acceptable.

It is highly likely that the allegations involving Boneyard were brought to the attention of the Tennessee administration by Lady Vol fans (possibly Maria Cornelius). It would be interesting to know if the fans took the initiative or were asked to do so by the athletics dept.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I would bet that 90%of Uconn fans dislike the voles for the same reason i have disliked the Lakers for 60 years.They were the Celtics main rival in the 60's and i grew up in New England. Allegiances very often remain for life and teams have disrupted our comfort zone annoy us.When we have les than wonderful things to say about Tennessee it is because of their past relevancy and our hope that they never again reach that status.We also have equal opportunity schadenfreude for Ms.Muffet and her little tuffits.For most of us it isn't a forgiveness issue,it's just an "i don't like your team and i hope you never win another game" issue.

I don't think you speak for most of us. While there was always a healthy rivalry, the abiding fan dislike of UTenn didn't happen until Saint Pat made her silly ass accusations. Her "ask Geno . . . " bullcrap showed exactly what sort of person she was. You cannot make those sort of public charges against someone and then be too much of a coward to back them up.

In civil relationships forgiveness usually follows an apology. Since that doesn't seem to be forthcoming screw them - them being the UTenn wcbb program and the sleazy fans that stirred the pot. I don't think there is a single poster on the BY that bears any animosity against the players. It's not about them.

 

[vtcwbuff]

It is highly likely that the allegations involving Boneyard were brought to the attention of the Tennessee administration by Lady Vol fans (possibly Maria Cornelius). It would be interesting to know if the fans took the initiative or were asked to do so by the athletics dept.

I think that MMC considered herself part of the inner circle of the OGC that ran women's sports at UTenn. I also believe that she actively encouraged all the malicious crap that infected the Summitt at the time. I know that she threatened to sic her FBI brother on a BY member. Kinda' like a 3rd grader threatening to have their father whup your father.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Apparently Nan was right and we are talking by each other. I do visit Volnation for amusement and now that I understand your curiously phrased point, through Nan the Interpreter, I agree; they slander directly and by innuendo with gusto. Vols fan hardly. Rocky does not allude to Rockytop, but the Rockies outside my window here in Montana.

Ya RMT no harm no foul..... i never get offended ..... like the exchange and opinions of all..... and in this case for a while i did not know i had phrased things a bit funny...... be well

 

[Kibitzer]

It is highly likely that the allegations involving Boneyard were brought to the attention of the Tennessee administration by Lady Vol fans (possibly Maria Cornelius).

Ms Cornelius is the moderator of The Summitt message board. For years she boasted of her "insider" relationship with Pat, attendance at practices, etc. She often shook down Summitteers for donations to defray her travel expenses to away games -- until she instituted a membership fee to posters and lurkers alike.

More to the point, she never curtailed the continuous stream of vile and repulsive posts, especially about Geno and Diana. I will go to my grave believing that MC was the author of the 37-page diatribe. If Tennessee is The Evil Empire, Ms Cornelius is The Princess of Darkness.