He ain't heavy, he's my brother

[The Yakk]

I'm a Sox fan and I'm not sure where this is coming from. Varitek was a good catcher who was a good hitter for the position but I don't think any Sox fans think he was great. Certainly not Hall of Fame caliber or anything close.

I'm a Sox fan too and I would say that most of us think Varitek was overpaid by the team--especially in the later years--but we didn't give a hoot because it was not our money and we were happy to have him around.

Well then, how about Rivera?

He wouldn't have recorded so many saves if he'd been on a less winning team all those years, right?
;^)

Rivera was legit underrated, my sphincter tightened up every time he came in the game against us. We got him a few times, but that doesn't change anything.

The team was riding Rivera's coattails, not the other way around. It's no coincidence that the NYY outperformed their Pythagorean wins estimate every year Rivera was there, or that they haven't won squat since he left.

I was at Rivera's Fenway Park farewell ceremony in 2013. Also happened to be the last game of the season. The love and respect for Rivera from everyone was kind of amazing.

I don't think we even bothered giving Jeter a day.

 

[Waquoit]

Fisk was a great player for a catcher but he did play a very long time, which helped him compile stats. The Sox should have never let him or Fred Lynn go.

Remember how Fisk was able to leave? The Sox forgot to tender an offer before the deadline. Like JI Randy Smith used to say, it wasn't a curse, it was bad management.

 

[navery12]

I don't think we even bothered giving Jeter a day.

Boston greats honor Jeter in final MLB game

With a soldout Fenway Park packed with New York Yankees fans chanting Derek Jeter's name, the Boston Red Sox honored the retiring New York captain.

es.pn

 

[Tenspro2002]

I'll just leave this here ...

View attachment 102784

Pretty sure a combined OPS of 1.371 over 3 WS - that only includes 3 HR - is not at all shabby.

With the Red Sox, his OPS by playoff series was:

.317 (awful against Oakland in 2003, but an enormous double in Game 4 to save the season)
.905
1.688 (including series-winning walkoff homer against the Angels in 2004 ALDS)
1.199 (numerous heroic moments against the Yankees in 2004 ALCS, walk-offs in Games 4 and 5, and really under-discussed home run to take the lead in the 1st in Game 7)
1.086
1.083
2.418 (murdered the Angels in 2007)
.966
.945
.644
.697
.167 (pretty mediocre in 2008-2009 overall, including in the playoffs)
1.479 (basically won Game 2 against TB in 2013 all by himself, dominated David Price)
.427 (awful against the Tigers, but mostly forgotten because of the iconic Game 2 homer that saved the season)
1.948 (annihilated St. Louis in the 2013 World Series)
.472 (everyone sucked against Cleveland in 2016)

That's 10 of 16 series above .900, 7 above 1.000, and 4 above 1.400. Insane.

 

[Mr. French]

How did Favre get a mention in that group?

One of my favorite thrills as a Jets fan was watching the spurned and cast aside Chad Pennington rip out and stomp the hearts of the Favre-led Jets causing them to miss the playoffs.

I like the Rizzuto pick, but since the worst part of living in Pittsburgh is Steeler fans, I'm gonna go with... let's see, many to choose from, but I'll say Lynn Swann.

Brett Favre is so overrated it’s hilarious.

Come to think of it, the other fraud that went GB to NYJ is on the same list.

 

[Chin Diesel]

When people castrate Derek Jeter as “overrated” yes it’s a bad thread. Mind-boggling dumb take.

The overrated part would be he's a legit HoF, but in spite of his percentage of votes for HoF being top 5 all-time, no one ranks him as the best SS of all-time and, I'd wager he wouldn't crack top-25 players of all-time on most lists by baseball historians (And I realize that can't be proven or disproven). Zero MVP's and a total of 3 times being in Top-5 of MVP voting (One 2nd and two 3rds).

I'd even say his post-season performance has as much to do with his "legendary" status as much as playing for the Yanks did. Being a top level post season player who was on the Yankees is a multiplier effect but everyone has to also acknowledge there are plenty of top level players who puckered up under the spotlight of NY and the post season. In other words, it's not a given a top level performer for the Yanks performs well in the post season. Credit due for that.

I also realize percentage of votes in HoF for decades was more about the wackiness of BWAA than it was player accomplishments.

 

[CTBasketball]

The overrated part would be he's a legit HoF, but in spite of his percentage of votes for HoF being top 5 all-time, no one ranks him as the best SS of all-time and, I'd wager he wouldn't crack top-25 players of all-time on most lists by baseball historians (And I realize that can't be proven or disproven). Zero MVP's and a total of 3 times being in Top-5 of MVP voting (One 2nd and two 3rds).

I'd even say his post-season performance has as much to do with his "legendary" status as much as playing for the Yanks did. Being a top level post season player who was on the Yankees is a multiplier effect but everyone has to also acknowledge there are plenty of top level players who puckered up under the spotlight of NY and the post season. In other words, it's not a given a top level performer for the Yanks performs well in the post season. Credit due for that.

I also realize percentage of votes in HoF for decades was more about the wackiness of BWAA than it was player accomplishments.

I wouldn’t take Cal Ripken Jr over Derek Jeter, I’d take Jeter any day of the week. Rodriguez and Ernie Banks I can see but they switched positions halfway thru their careers.

 

[Kolumbo]

Let's not forget: "Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical." That gave Jeter an edge. Jeter's got an Edge.

 

[Scoe]

The overrated part would be he's a legit HoF, but in spite of his percentage of votes for HoF being top 5 all-time, no one ranks him as the best SS of all-time and, I'd wager he wouldn't crack top-25 players of all-time on most lists by baseball historians (And I realize that can't be proven or disproven). Zero MVP's and a total of 3 times being in Top-5 of MVP voting (One 2nd and two 3rds).

I'd even say his post-season performance has as much to do with his "legendary" status as much as playing for the Yanks did. Being a top level post season player who was on the Yankees is a multiplier effect but everyone has to also acknowledge there are plenty of top level players who puckered up under the spotlight of NY and the post season. In other words, it's not a given a top level performer for the Yanks performs well in the post season. Credit due for that.

I also realize percentage of votes in HoF for decades was more about the wackiness of BWAA than it was player accomplishments.

Jeter has been called overrated his entire career so that word "overrated" loses its luster after awhile. I say he was overhyped by the NY media, the national media always called him overrated.

There was poll from 2005 calling him the most overrated player and he played the best baseball of his career after that. Probably should've won the mvp in 2006 in a year he batted .343, in 2009 Jeter batted .334 in that year a catcher was batting .380 so sometimes is a bit about luck as Pedroia was an mvp batting .280. I agree he never should've won the 5 gold gloves.

 

[Icculus]

Sure, the estimation of Jeter's individual career stats/accomplishments might be slightly over-fluffed, but that's probably true of all championship-winning players from big markets. I'd think that it would be crazy to single him for being overrated, but, being from Fairfield County, I keep on forgetting that there's a lot of UConn/Red Sox fans up in the northern reaches of the state.

 

[nomar]

Is there any name that comes to mind faster than Jeter?

Came to my mind first, before I read your post

(post/handle)

 

[Kolumbo]

Mike Mussina
I actually don't think Mike belongs on this list but his name came to mind because there was so much HOF discussion before he was voted in. I don't think Mike is overrated. He was a top pitcher for the Orioles and for the Yankees during a great run. Every player is going to be elevated if he is on a great team. Playing for the Yankees certainly helped his HOF numbers.

 

[nomar]

Eli Manning. Justin Tuck should have won one of the SB MVPs as it is. But had Assante Samuel not dropped a pick, and had Welker not dropped a catchable ball, Eli would have been a goat, not a hero. And had Gronk not gotten a high ankle sprain in the AFC Championship game, that SB likely would have turned out diffeeently as well. I believe both Giants teams were 9-7 wild cards that were both a hair away from not making the playoffs.

Don’t agree with this. Eli Manning is a slightly-above-average quarterback who might get into the HOF only because of the things HE DID in the clutch. No football player does everything by himself but Eli played his best football when it mattered the most. That’s elevated his reputation, which is how it usually works. Nobody’s going around saying he was the best QB in the league.

 

[nomar]

Yeah, how was Marino a bad person? Did he kick small dogs? Did he litter? Commit eugenics experiments on cats? I don't know what "bad person" means in this context

Sorry but anybody who gives his offensive line Isotoner gloves can’t be a bad person

 

[nomar]

If he stayed with the Twins, you’d never know who Big Papi was. He couldn’t crack the lineup over Doug Mientkiewicz for like 5 years then went to the Sox and “weirdly” became Superman.

A part of Jeter that gets ignored constantly is that he played his entire career in a place where there is a long, long list of good players who folded like card tables under the pressure to win every year. He succeeded and did it with class.

Players get better over time, you know. The Twins made a gigantic blunder, period.

Ortiz also succeeded under pressure and did so with class.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

Players get better over time, you know. The Twins made a gigantic blunder, period.

Ortiz also succeeded under pressure and did so with class.

Only other guy who put up similar numbers after age 35 was (drumroll)…Barry Bonds.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Only other guy who put up similar numbers after age 35 was (drumroll)…Barry Bonds.

The Ortiz example holds up as without being on a team that makes and wins multiple world series he never has the chance to be so clutch.

So... why do people need the steroid crap, Mitchell report, etc.. no one gives a rats ass about steriods anymore and they don't provide a mental edge that would enable the stats Ortiz put up in multiple postseasons. Its gotta be just very old Yankees distraught over the Red Sox titles and Big Papi seizing the Mr. October crown from Reggie with as mentioned 10 incredible post-season series performances and multiple massive hits in the biggest game situations. I was there for many of them, the HR vs the Tigers was the best non-Husky sports moment I've ever witnessed. Try as you might you can't take the championships and big hits off the board.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Brett Favre is so overrated it’s hilarious.

Come to think of it, the other fraud that went GB to NYJ is on the same list.

Hmmmm, i think you must be messing with me but .. Here's Favre: I feel kinda silly even having to post these stats here:

4th on all time yards, 4th all time touchdowns, 3 mvps, most consecutive games,
11 probowls, 2nd in all time wins
3rd all time in completions, a superbowl ring, top 10 in playoff wins
(Rodgers also is top ten in all the above categories and has 4mvps, not overrated either)

Favre is 1st all time in interceptions, we all know that, but if you have anything else as to why he's not only overrated but "hilariously overrated"
you have the floor

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Hmmmm.. Here's Favre:
4th on all time yards, 4th all time touchdowns, 3 mvps, most consecutive games,
11 probowls, 2nd in all time wins
3rd all time in completions, a superbowl ring, top 10 in playoff wins

He is 1st all time in interceptions, we all know that, but if you have anything else as to why he's not only overrated but "hilariously overrated" you have the floor sir.
I can't wait for this

Back end of his career he had a lot of sub par years. He’s overrated, probably not hilariously overrated though.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

I'm a Sox fan too and I would say that most of us think Varitek was overpaid by the team--especially in the later years--but we didn't give a hoot because it was not our money and we were happy to have him around.

Rivera was legit underrated, my sphincter tightened up every time he came in the game against us. We got him a few times, but that doesn't change anything.

The team was riding Rivera's coattails, not the other way around. It's no coincidence that the NYY outperformed their Pythagorean wins estimate every year Rivera was there, or that they haven't won squat since he left.

I was at Rivera's Fenway Park farewell ceremony in 2013. Also happened to be the last game of the season. The love and respect for Rivera from everyone was kind of amazing.

I don't think we even bothered giving Jeter a day.

My Rivera comment was total joking. I was a Red Sox fan from the summer before I went to my first basketball game in the Field House to see Toby Kimball et al 60+ years ago. Semi-regrettably, I'd had my heart broken so many times that I'd pretty much given up following baseball by the time 2004 rolled around. So great was my loss aversion that I watched none of the ALCS 4 consecutive wins against the Yankees in real time. Doh. But honestly only sort of. The trauma was real, and times, people, and priorities change.

But as to Rivera, I was shocked whenever he didn't close things out successfully. I regarded his saves as forgone conclusions like nobody else ever. While I didn't pay enough attention to test my opinion, he always struck me as a really good guy too.

 

[Scoe]

Emmitt Smith on the Cowboys.

 

[superjohn]

So... why do people need the steroid crap, Mitchell report, etc.. no one gives a rats ass about steriods anymore and they don't provide a mental edge that would enable the stats Ortiz put up in multiple postseasons.

What? Nobody gives a rats ass about steroids anymore? Some of the very best players in the history of baseball are seemingly forever banned from the Hall of Fame because people care about steroids.

Steroids make you much better at everything, it's why good players turned into great players and great players turned superhuman.

 

[nomar]

Only other guy who put up similar numbers after age 35 was (drumroll)…Barry Bonds.

Ortiz was tested over and over while he was putting up big stats later in his career. Either he was the greatest cheat in the history of professional sports or he was just a great hitter. Agree to disagree on which is more likely, I guess.

 

[nomar]

Emmitt Smith on the Cowboys.

Imagine Barry Sanders on those Cowboy teams with that line.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Back end of his career he had a lot of sub par years. He’s overrated, probably not hilariously overrated though.

sub par for him maybe in those years but not in comparison to the rest of the qbs.
2007, his last year in GB he was top 5 in most qb categories.
His year with jets, his worst, he was top 10 in all categories and was 8-3 until he tore his bicep
Then made the NFC championship in 2009 after retiring.

He had 1 average year.

He is justly rated: nobody calls him the GOAT. That is usually reserved for Brady, Manning, Mahomes, Montana (for big wins)
Favre comes in as top 5-10 qbs ever in conversation and that's exactly where he belongs.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Emmitt Smith on the Cowboys.

Probably a lot of NFL RBs you can make a case for. There are very few positions in sports that are more dependent on the folks around them than RB. Outside of some truly elite backs, hard to really do a great compare of individual ability.

 

[UCsports]

Steph Curry might not have even played in the NBA if he was born in a different era. I love him as a player, but his basketball career would have been totally different if he played in an era prior to the 3 point line, when defenses could play physical and pack the paint, and moving screens weren't allowed. Also, his ankle issues may have kept him from playing, but the modern ankle braces and sports science have helped him tremendously in his career.

 

[Waquoit]

Let's not forget: "Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical." That gave Jeter an edge. Jeter's got an Edge.

I think the other version is funnier "90% of baseball is half mental." That's the one I remember and the one they used in 61*.

 

[TheHorde]

Don’t agree with this. Eli Manning is a slightly-above-average quarterback who might get into the HOF only because of the things HE DID in the clutch. No football player does everything by himself but Eli played his best football when it mattered the most. That’s elevated his reputation, which is how it usually works. Nobody’s going around saying he was the best QB in the league.

He played really well in one of the two SBs, but not as much in the other. And had he not gotten bailed out by a dropped interception and a helmet catch, his legacy would look much different.

 

[nomar]

He played really well in one of the two SBs, but not as much in the other. And had he not gotten bailed out by a dropped interception and a helmet catch, his legacy would look much different.

Sure. Every player is a beneficiary or a victim of multiple events outside their control. But the helmet catch isn't the best example because Tyree doesn't get a chance to catch it but for an incredible play by Eli. The escape was phenomenal and he put the ball in the only place Tyeee could catch it. Eli also made an incredible throw to Manningham in SB XCVI.