ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[BleedHuskyBlu]

Ginobili missed 1, and then LeBron hit a 3 to bring it to 1. Kawhi hit both and then Ray scored. I just watched it.

Lebron haters crack me up. Ray hits a clutch shot but its not like Lebron didnt put the team on his back up to that point even during that game

 

[superjohn]

Ginobili missed 1, and then LeBron hit a 3 to bring it to 1. Kawhi hit both and then Ray scored. I just watched it.

Nope, Lebron went 1-4 with a couple turnovers and 2 airballs in the final minute but one of the those aiballs was recovered and passed to Lebron for a made 3. Spurs were up 2 with 19 seconds left, Kawhi had a chance to ice it and missed 1 of 2 ft's. Lebron missed another 3, Bosh got the rebound and passed to Ray for the 3 to tie it.

 

[tzznandrew]

Nope, Lebron went 1-4 with a couple turnovers and 2 airballs in the final minute but one of the those aiballs was recovered and passed to Lebron for a made 3. Spurs were up 2 with 19 seconds left, Kawhi had a chance to ice it and missed 1 of 2 ft's. Lebron missed another 3, Bosh got the rebound and passed to Ray for the 3 to tie it.

Yeah. **** Both Kawhi and Ginobili went 1-of-2 in the final minute.

 

[tzznandrew]

Lebron haters crack me up. Ray hits a clutch shot but its not like Lebron didnt put the team on his back up to that point even during that game

Well, I was wrong on this one. But also, LeBron was terrible in the last 4+ minutes of that game.

 

[tzznandrew]

Nope, Lebron went 1-4 with a couple turnovers and 2 airballs in the final minute but one of the those aiballs was recovered and passed to Lebron for a made 3. Spurs were up 2 with 19 seconds left, Kawhi had a chance to ice it and missed 1 of 2 ft's. Lebron missed another 3, Bosh got the rebound and passed to Ray for the 3 to tie it.

To be fair, he went 1-5 and only had 1 airball.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Lebron was pretty much nonexistent in that Dallas finals. It was all a really bad look and stain on his legacy from how he performed to him making fun of Dirk for having a 102 temperature.

Game 2 Heat were up at home by 15 points with 6 minutes left and Mavericks basically bageled the Heat for the rest of the game to tie the series 1-1. Game 4 after Lebron and Wade made fun of Dirk for having a 102 temperature the Heat were in total control again up huge in the 4th quarter about to make the series 3-1 for Miami and Lebron was nowhere to be found again while Dirk willed his team to victory where they never looked back.

Wade was way better than Lebron in that finals.

No one is arguing that point. But sure. I have always said that Finals is as big as stain as carrying the 07 team was a gold star.

But the finals against Dallas brings up another interesting point. His disappearance was 90% his fault, but does the coach deserve some blame? He watched the opposing coach against his strategy and did nothing to counter. There is no Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, or Pop in his past. He has taken every coach in his career to the Finals except Coach Silas and Walton (who was only with him the season he got hurt). Four of those coaches were first time coaches. Two lost their jobs once he left and are yet to get another job.

Everyone to whom he is compared played for a HOF coach.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Well, I was wrong on this one. But also, LeBron was terrible in the last 4+ minutes of that game.

Go back and watch the overtime of that game. Then look at his impact on the entire series.

 

[tzznandrew]

Go back and watch the overtime of that game. Then look at his impact on the entire series.

I mean, read what I wrote. Throughout the thread.

His excellence in getting them the lead and in winning in OT is a fact.

Also, he was abominable for the last 4:30 of regulation.

Those two things can be true. And if Ray Allen misses, nobody is remembering that he scored 16 points in the 4th quarter on 7-11 shooting. They're rightly remembering that all those misses and two TOs came as they blew a lead with under 3 minutes left at home and lost a series.

 

[Lefty2one]

It is truly one of the most absurd common thoughts in sports. Followed closely by "Kyrie saved him". Yes, in a game scored over 40 points, in a series he dominated, Kyrie "saved" him. FOH. People forget the game was tied and had he missed, it wasn't over.

All true. The biggest storyline in that series though, besides Dray being a moron and getting suspended, was Kyrie outplaying Steph by a pretty comfortable margin. LeBron played out of his mind that series but Kyrie wasn't far behind.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I mean, read what I wrote. Throughout the thread.

His excellence in getting them the lead and in winning in OT is a fact.

Also, he was abominable for the last 4:30 of regulation.

Those two things can be true. And if Ray Allen misses, nobody is remembering that he scored 16 points in the 4th quarter on 7-11 shooting. They're rightly remembering that all those misses and two TOs came as they blew a lead with under 3 minutes left at home and lost a series.

And he had a triple double and kept his team in the whole game.

 

[tzznandrew]

And he had a triple double and kept his team in the whole game.

And, for the last 4:30 sucked. I don't see how these things are incompatible. His team had the lead, then they didn't, and if Ray Allen didn't hit a 3 they lose.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

And, for the last 4:30 sucked. I don't see how these things are incompatible. His team had the lead, then they didn't, and if Ray Allen didn't hit a 3 they lose.

And for about 90% of the game he was amazing. Why nitpick a miraculous performance in a back against the wall game?

 

[Kenny11]

different era arguments can go forever but imagine Jordan in today’s nba with the spacing he would have to work with on offense. No he wouldn’t average 45. That’s nuts. But he would certainly be way over 30 ppg and probably so many more assists with actual shooters around him. The triangle sucks now.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

All true. The biggest storyline in that series though, besides Dray being a moron and getting suspended, was Kyrie outplaying Steph by a pretty comfortable margin. LeBron played out of his mind that series but Kyrie wasn't far behind.

Kyrie didn't really show up until game three, as usual. And I believe the biggest storyline was coming back from being down 3-1.

Another point I find fascinating. The Myth of Kyrie. Take out his years riding Lebron's coattails and tell me what he has accomplished.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I mean, read what I wrote. Throughout the thread.

His excellence in getting them the lead and in winning in OT is a fact.

Also, he was abominable for the last 4:30 of regulation.

Those two things can be true. And if Ray Allen misses, nobody is remembering that he scored 16 points in the 4th quarter on 7-11 shooting. They're rightly remembering that all those misses and two TOs came as they blew a lead with under 3 minutes left at home and lost a series.

In a series where he was clearly the best player on either side, you pick a 4 minute stretch to say he got lucky. Ok.

 

[Burnsbros23]

Nope, Lebron went 1-4 with a couple turnovers and 2 airballs in the final minute but one of the those aiballs was recovered and passed to Lebron for a made 3. Spurs were up 2 with 19 seconds left, Kawhi had a chance to ice it and missed 1 of 2 ft's. Lebron missed another 3, Bosh got the rebound and passed to Ray for the 3 to tie it.

didn’t he score 16 in the fourth quarter that game?

 

[Burnsbros23]

The second 3 finals he played in Jordan wasnt nearly as dominant. First three his numbers are insane. You can’t cherry pick moments from lebrons Career and say well if ray misses that shot or this.

That cavs team with Mo williams Shaq and Antwan Jamison was terrible. Jamison a hall of famer? That’s insane.

even the heat team wasn’t all it was hyped it to be either. Who’s better Pippen or Wade? Rodman and horace Grant vs Bosh?

And with all that said I take Jordan pretty clearly, but lack of appreciation for LeBron by some is odd.

 

[zepfan]

The real farce is that LeBron isn't ranked #1 AND #2. He's that great that he deserves the top two slots.

Flopping disqualifies LJ from any discussion of best ever. The mere thought of it would have disgusted the players of the 80s and 90s. You need to deceive the referee to get the better of your opponent??? If LJ flopped on Jordan or Bird they would each get into his head and make sure he knew he was inferior to them. Wilt, Kareem, Bill Russell, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley would just laugh at him. LJ has been coddled by a much more offense friendly league. Jordan got physically assaulted by the Pistons and just got more determined - never thinking how can I "play dead" to trick the referees. The mental toughness of Jordan, Magic, and Bird would see the flopping and quickly recognize that he has a weakness. Jordan and Bird were pure, cold blooded assassins compared to LJ. Lebron is one of the greatest but not better than Jordan. Arguably better than Bird due to his extraordinary physical abilities. JMHO

 

[tzznandrew]

In a series where he was clearly the best player on either side, you pick a 4 minute stretch to say he got lucky. Ok.

Again, that's not what I wrote.

He had a great series. But his team also blew a late lead and if it weren't for Allen they would hav lost, and James played terrible in that stretch.

Players have great series all the time and people don't remember it when their team loses. I don't see why this is hard. Donyell Marshall spent a whole year averaging 25 and 9 on 52% shooting and 25 years later people almost solely bring up the missed FTs. That's the reality.

 

[tzznandrew]

That cavs team with Mo williams Shaq and Antwan Jamison was terrible. Jamison a hall of famer? That’s insane.

That team won 61 games. They were good, and were expected to go to the Finals.

There are 50 players who have 20K points . Here's the list of players in that list who aren't in the Hall of Fame (or who aren't definitely going to make it): Tom Chambers. That's it. I think there's a decent chance Jamison makes it, even if I don't think he deserves it.

even the heat team wasn’t all it was hyped it to be either. Who’s better Pippen or Wade? Rodman and horace Grant vs Bosh?

I take Bosh over both Rodman and Horace Grant easily. Especially Grant, but Rodman gives you very good rebounding and defense and no offense. You get way more offense from Bosh and also very good defense. Peak Bosh is getting you 22 and 10 with strong defense.

Wade and Pippen is a toss up. Wade was the alpha on a title team, a great scorer, and at his peak an All-NBA Defensive player (3x). Pippen is obviously the greatest perimeter defender ever. By Win Shares and VORP, they're roughly equal. By Box P/M Wade is +5 and Pippen +4. By PER Wade by a lot.

Those Heat teams were loaded at the top. Frankly, the depth of those Bulls teams beyond Jordan and Pippen was pretty bleak, particularly in that second three peat.

 

[Chin Diesel]

That team won 61 games. They were good, and were expected to go to the Finals.

There are 50 players who have 20K points and aren't in the HOF. Here's the list of players in that list who aren't in the Hall of Fame (or who aren't definitely) going to make it: Tom Chambers. That's it. I think there's a decent chance Jamison makes it, even if I don't think they're great.



I take Bosh over both Rodman and Horace Grant easily. Especially Grant, but Rodman gives you very good rebounding and defense and no offense. You get way more offense from Bosh and also very good defense. Peak Bosh is getting you 22 and 10 with strong defense.

Wade and Pippen is a toss up. Wade was the alpha on a title team, a great scorer, and at his peak an All-NBA Defensive player (3x). Pippen is obviously the greatest perimeter defender ever. By Win Shares and VORP, they're roughly equal. By Box P/M Wade is +5 and Pippen +4. By PER Wade by a lot.

Those Heat teams were loaded at the top. Frankly, the depth of those Bulls teams beyond Jordan and Pippen was pretty bleak, particularly in that second three peat.

Agree on peak Wade over peak Pippen. Wade led a team to a championship as the alpha and clearly had confidence of everyone he could be the man.

Disagree on Bosh over Rodman. In a vacuum, yes, Bosh is better. But on these superstar type teams where points aren't an issue, Rodman has the two skills that every great team needs- defense and rebounding.

 

[Lefty2one]

Kyrie didn't really show up until game three, as usual.

He was unreal though. Games 3-7:

30.8 / 4.4 / 4.2 plus 1.8 steals on an insane .508 / .467 / .952 split.

For the series Steph was 22.6 / 4.9 / 3.7 (with a brutal 4.3 TOV/g). Shot .403 / .400 / .929

 

[Lefty2one]

I take Bosh over both Rodman and Horace Grant easily. Especially Grant, but Rodman gives you very good rebounding and defense and no offense. You get way more offense from Bosh and also very good defense. Peak Bosh is getting you 22 and 10 with strong defense.

Wade and Pippen is a toss up. Wade was the alpha on a title team, a great scorer, and at his peak an All-NBA Defensive player (3x). Pippen is obviously the greatest perimeter defender ever. By Win Shares and VORP, they're roughly equal. By Box P/M Wade is +5 and Pippen +4. By PER Wade by a lot.

Those Heat teams were loaded at the top. Frankly, the depth of those Bulls teams beyond Jordan and Pippen was pretty bleak, particularly in that second three peat.

It's pretty funny. Bosh was an 11x All Star. He was a much better player than Horace Grant (even if Grant is a bit underappreciated in terms of the Bulls dynasty).

Peak Wade was ridiculous. It's one of my hotter takes but I don't think there's a huge gap between peak Wade and peak Kobe. Peak Wade was as good as any player in the league.

LeBron's supporting casts of Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and AD is ridiculous. The guy didn't have much help during his initial stint in CLE but since then he's played with a ton of talent. Those core of guys has made x16 All-NBA teams and 42 All-Star teams.

 

[superjohn]

The second 3 finals he played in Jordan wasnt nearly as dominant. First three his numbers are insane. You can’t cherry pick moments from lebrons Career and say well if ray misses that shot or this.

That cavs team with Mo williams Shaq and Antwan Jamison was terrible. Jamison a hall of famer? That’s insane.

even the heat team wasn’t all it was hyped it to be either. Who’s better Pippen or Wade? Rodman and horace Grant vs Bosh?

And with all that said I take Jordan pretty clearly, but lack of appreciation for LeBron by some is odd.

Wade is better than Pippen and I don't consider it close. Pippen was a great player but that espn list is a joke. They have Pippen ranked way ahead of Drexler, ahead of Barkley, Wade, Elgin Baylor, David Robinson etc.

Rodman and Bosh are so hard to compare. Rodman was an amazing rebounder and defender, Bosh an offensive force. Bosh was way better than Horace Grant.

 

[methodology]

In a series where he was clearly the best player on either side, you pick a 4 minute stretch to say he got lucky. Ok.

That's not what he said. Being the best player doesn't equal they should have won the series.

He's pointing out when it was crunch time with game on the line... if Ray doesn't hit that 3 the narrative would have been Lebron choked. The Ray 3 saved his bum

 

[Dean Wormer]

Magic Johnson pretty much sums it up in eight words: "There's Michael, then there's the rest of us."

This is my take on it too. Fans can go back and forth all they want, but when I hear a Larry Bird saying Steph Curry is the best shooter he’s ever seen, or dozens of players, going back to Bill Russell, the Logo, etc. all agreeing that Jordan’s the GOAT, that’s when it means something.
LBJ has earned the right to have the question asked, but Michael Jordan is the GOAT. And he didn’t have to run to a stacked team full of his buddies to win a ring, either. Imagine if Magic and Bird had plotted to bring MJ to a team so they could play together? Nobody would beat that team. Nobody. And I’m sure they wouldn’t lose in the playoffs either.

 

[superjohn]

Game tying or go ahead baskets in playoff games under 24 seconds of regulation or overtime- Jordan 50%, Lebron 36%, Kobe 28%.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Game tying or go ahead baskets in playoff games under 24 seconds of regulation or overtime- Jordan 50%, Lebron 36%, Kobe 28%.

 

[superjohn]

View attachment 54449

First reply, lol...

 

[CardiacAndre7]

First reply, lol...
View attachment 54450

I’m not saying one or the other is the GOAT, just giving a response statistic. The notion that LeBron isn’t clutch is outdated and misinformed. Not saying you said that, just that a lot of people have/do.