ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[MilliniumPrince]

Nope.

Jordan career 3P% - 32.7% Playoffs - 33.2%
James career 3P% - 34.4% Playoffs - 33.2%

Jordan 3 P% .327
Lebron 3P% 344

LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan Comparison

Head-to-head comparison between the NBA stars Michael Jordan and LeBron James that includes championships won, honors and awards obtained, regular season and playoffs stats and other data put side by side.

www.landofbasketball.com

 

[navery12]

If you argument is that LeBron is the best because nobody was better at making his teammates better and I can point out reasons why that isn't even remotely true, it undercuts his points without reference to Jordan.

The Jordan vs. LeBron debate there gets complicated. Certainly LeBron is a better passer, but it's impossible to quantify what having someone like Jordan does for everyone. We know that about Curry, for instance. You can't leave the guy alone and, regardless of how good a passer he is, everyone on the court is better because of him. Steve Kerr got wide open shots because of Jordan and, later, Duncan. Both of those guys were made Kerr way better.

I'm not even saying LeBron is better than MJ. I won't even try to delve into who made their teammates better between the 2 because I couldn't tell you anything about anyone Jordan played with outside of about 3 players

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

Lebron is great he will always have an argument to be a Top 2,3 whatever. But he would've easily been the games biggest whiner (may be anyway) ever had he played back when Michael played that's a no brainer. The more I have a chance to watch the '84 Celts stuff, the Pistons stuff and Michaels stuff because there's nothing on I can't believe how hard and physical they played in comparison to todays game. Watching a C's game vs the Hawks and Kevin Willis guarding McHale and Wilkins guarding Larry as they are both backing people in and getting physically hammered while doing so, it was crazy tough basketball in those days. No reviews for hard fouls like today with pansy crap it as basketball. To win it all you had to be really really tough mentally and physically for 40 minutes a game.

I mean it's Michael as to who #1 is and it's not really close.

Its funny how you think Michael would be able to adjust his 3 pt shooting to fit with this era but no way Lebron would be able to adjust his "whining" or "toughness" playing in that era.

You guys crack me up.

 

[tzznandrew]

Jordan 3 P% .327
Lebron 3P% 344

LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan Comparison

Head-to-head comparison between the NBA stars Michael Jordan and LeBron James that includes championships won, honors and awards obtained, regular season and playoffs stats and other data put side by side.

www.landofbasketball.com

So, they shot roughly the same percentage during the regular season, and exactly the same during the playoffs.

And one guy rarely practiced 3s and the other played over half his career in a league that valued 3s above everything else. I don't get what you think this does to help the LeBron is better argument.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

So, they shot roughly the same percentage during the regular season, and exactly the same during the playoffs.

And one guy rarely practiced 3s and the other played over half his career in a league that valued 3s above everything else. I don't get what you think this does to help the LeBron is better argument.

Well almost 2% is a big difference.

 

[Chin Diesel]

LeBron has one of the best minds ever, but this dude is either trolling really hard or just someone who likes to spout completely unprovable statements.

Well, if you were a sixth grader and had no more school work to do from home today, what would you do?

 

[BlueMAB]

Tristan Thompson aint getting a Max contract playing with Jordan ill tell you that.

1) Thompson didn't get a max contract with Lebron.

2) Thompson's contract had more to do with keeping Lebron happy than Thompson's value as a player. Lebron was publicly pressuring the Cavs to sign him long-term. He was the 4th overall pick, he was improving, and the best player in the world at that time is telling the team to sign him.

Let's get one thing out of the way here first: Thompson is represented by Rich Paul. Rich Paul is also the agent and best friend of James, who doubles as Cleveland's best player and at times seems as though he is also the de facto head coach and general manager. We're providing this information to say that if LeBron wants Thompson retained on a max contract, there's a pretty good chance it will happen. That said, it doesn't seem like there should be much of a market for Thompson at the maximum salary for any team but the Cavaliers. The very specific set of circumstances under which he can succeed offensively—alongside multiple high-usage players who have the ability to create nearly every scoring opportunity for him—doesn't exist on many other teams, and that fact likely outweighs even the value he brings as a defender if we're talking about a maximum contract.


But yes, let's pretend it's because Lebron made him a better player.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

So, they shot roughly the same percentage during the regular season, and exactly the same during the playoffs.

And one guy rarely practiced 3s and the other played over half his career in a league that valued 3s above everything else. I don't get what you think this does to help the LeBron is better argument.

?

Lebron has a lot more attempts and still had a higher success rate. If you can do a job more often than the next man while being more successful, that means you are better than him doing that thing.

 

[BlueMAB]

Well almost 2% is a big difference.

It isn't.

If two players take 100 threes, and one makes 40, while the other makes 38, are you going to tell your team that they don't have to close out on the 38% shooter as hard as the 40% shooter?

Over the course of a season, 2% could mean the difference between winning a losing a few games. It's not unimportant, but it isn't a "big difference". You literally can't get much smaller than 1-2% difference.

In practice, 2% isn't going to change the way the defense approaches a player. A guy who shoots 38% from three needs to be accounted for in the same manner as a guy who shoots 40%. You won't ignore someone over that 2%.

 

[navery12]

1) Thompson didn't get a max contract with Lebron.

2) Thompson's contract had more to do with keeping Lebron happy than Thompson's value as a player. Lebron was publicly pressuring the Cavs to sign him long-term. He was the 4th overall pick, he was improving, and the best player in the world at that time is telling the team to sign him.

Let's get one thing out of the way here first: Thompson is represented by Rich Paul. Rich Paul is also the agent and best friend of James, who doubles as Cleveland's best player and at times seems as though he is also the de facto head coach and general manager. We're providing this information to say that if LeBron wants Thompson retained on a max contract, there's a pretty good chance it will happen. That said, it doesn't seem like there should be much of a market for Thompson at the maximum salary for any team but the Cavaliers. The very specific set of circumstances under which he can succeed offensively—alongside multiple high-usage players who have the ability to create nearly every scoring opportunity for him—doesn't exist on many other teams, and that fact likely outweighs even the value he brings as a defender if we're talking about a maximum contract.


But yes, let's pretend it's because Lebron made him a better player.

To be fair none of that disproves his point. LeBron got his friends paid, Jordan would have killed Thompson himself if it meant 1 more win

 

[CardiacAndre7]

It isn't.

If two players take 100 threes, and one makes 40, while the other makes 38, are you going to tell your team that they don't have to close out on the 38% shooter as hard as the 40% shooter?

Over the course of a season, 2% could mean the difference between winning a losing a few games. It's not unimportant, but it isn't a "big difference". You literally can't get much smaller than 1-2% difference.

In practice, 2% isn't going to change the way the defense approaches a player. A guy who shoots 38% from three needs to be accounted for in the same manner as a guy who shoots 40%. You won't ignore someone over that 2%.

That is just such a naive and watered down take that I don’t really know how to respond.

 

[BlueMAB]

To be fair none of that disproves his point. LeBron got his friends paid, Jordan would have killed Thompson himself if it meant 1 more win

He didn't make Tristan a better player. He made him more money. There's a difference. So it does disprove his argument that nobody in the history of the NBA made their teammates "better" like Lebron, when his argument is that Tristan Thompson got a max contract because of Lebron.

He didn't get a max contract, and the contract he did get was due to a number of factors, none of which were "Tristan Thompson is worth a max contract because Lebron made him into a player worthy of a max contract"

 

[ClifSpliffy]

wow. that 10 to 1 scoring champ thing is a pretty big matzohball hanging out there. 10-1 in
favor of mr jordan. nobody ever says 'be like lj.'

 

[navery12]

He didn't make Tristan a better player. He made him more money. There's a difference. So it does disprove his argument that nobody in the history of the NBA made their teammates "better" like Lebron, when his argument is that Tristan Thompson got a max contract because of Lebron.

He didn't get a max contract, and the contract he did get was due to a number of factors, none of which were "Tristan Thompson is worthy a max contract because Lebron made him into a player worthy of a max contract"

Oh I know, I was just making a joke that in his post he never said LeBron made Tristan Thompson a good player, just made him money

 

[BlueMAB]

That is just such a naive and watered down take that I don’t really know how to respond.

Sure.

 

[tzznandrew]

?

Lebron has a lot more attempts and still had a higher success rate. If you can do a job more often than the next man while being more successful, that means you are better than him doing that thing.

Again, he has more attempts because that's what offenses demanded. And if offenses demanded this then, Jordan would have been much better at it: he learned to shoot in the NBA. It's like saying baseball players are worse hitters than in the past because their averages are lower. It ignores so much.

EDIT: LeBron is a freak. He'd have adapted just fine to what 80s/90s offenses wanted. That's not the point.

 

[BlueMAB]

Oh I know, I was just making a joke that in his post he never said LeBron made Tristan Thompson a good player, just made him money

hahaha Lebron 5th now thats funny. Lebron has the greatest basketball mind to ever play the game. No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.

 

[HuskylnSC]

Oscar Robertson and Russell Westbrook are the only 2 who have even averaged a triple double for a season, and both are well below that for their career

Robertson also set yardsticks in versatility. If his first five NBA seasons are strung together, Robertson averaged a triple-double over those, averaging 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds and 10.6 assists. For his career, Robertson had 181 triple-doubles, a record that has never been approached.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Again, he has more attempts because that's what offenses demanded. And if offenses demanded this then, Jordan would have been much better at it: he learned to shoot in the NBA. It's like saying baseball players are worse hitters than in the past because their averages are lower. It ignores so much.

EDIT: LeBron is a freak. He'd have adapted just fine to what 80s/90s offenses wanted. That's not the point.

Shooting is arguably the hardest part of the game to consistently improve. MJ may very have been a good 3pt shooter in this time, but as it stands he wasn’t a very good one. LeBron isn’t anything special but he has become a 3pt threat.

 

[HuskylnSC]

Yet no one ever considers Oscar when discussing Goats

 

[navery12]

Yeah I know, I saw his first post

 

[tzznandrew]

Shooting is arguably the hardest part of the game to consistently improve. MJ may very have been a good 3pt shooter in this time, but as it stands he wasn’t a very good one. LeBron isn’t anything special but he has become a 3pt threat.

Except that he did improve it.

He shot 36% from 1990-1998. He had a season where he shot 43% (on 3.5 attempts a game).

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Except that he did improve it.

He shot 36% from 1990-1998. He had a season where he shot 43% (on 3.5 attempts a game).

But we aren’t talking about single season highs, we’re talking career average. LeBron shot 41% from 3 one season on the Heat but I won’t call him a great 3pt shooter as that number suggests.

 

[tzznandrew]

But we aren’t talking about single season highs, we’re talking career average. LeBron shot 41% from 3 one season on the Heat but I won’t call him a great 3pt shooter as that number suggests.

Right, but I gave you a decade's worth of data, right?

He stopped taking them (essentially) his last 3 years. but from 1990-1997 he shot 37%.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Right, but I gave you a decade's worth of data, right?

He stopped taking them (essentially) his last 3 years. but from 1990-1997 he shot 37%.

But those stats are held up by that one off season that he shot 43% and presumably by the season he played 17 games and shot 50% as you may not have adjusted for games played.