ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[Mr. French]

I'd have him behind (in no order)

Jordan
LeBron
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Duncan
Robertson
Olajuwon

I'd be willing to debate the last two, but also Shaq (he was the player on that 3-peat). I think peak KD is better (so I can't put him ahead yet, but will if he plays another number of healthy years), and I think Kawhi & Giannis are all likely to pass him, as well as, potentially, Curry.

Agree with all of that.

 

[huskyinfl]

MJ is better. However lets decide this based off the box office of Space Jam vs Space Jam 2.

Younger people can't understand the change in Media and access to sports from 30 years ago. Literally box score in the newspaper versus instant clips sent to your phone about any player any trade anything.

 

[T-Squared]

I'd have him behind (in no order)

Jordan
LeBron
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Duncan
Robertson
Olajuwon

I'd be willing to debate the last two, but also Shaq (he was the player on that 3-peat). I think peak KD is better (so I can't put him ahead yet, but will if he plays another number of healthy years), and I think Kawhi & Giannis are all likely to pass him, as well as, potentially, Curry.

Spot on. Best ranking I’ve seen yet.

 

[Travelman6]

6>3
and
6-0 > 3-6 in the finals.

Jordan was the best, Kobe second, Kareem, Magic and Bird 3, 4, and 5, maybe Lebron is 6, but still think Wilt deserves the 6 spot (or Maybe Shaq does and Wilt should be 7). I could easily drop LJ to 8, honestly.

 

[tzznandrew]

6>3
and
6-0 > 3-6 in the finals.

Jordan was the best, Kobe second, Kareem, Magic and Bird 3, 4, and 5, maybe Lebron is 6, but still think Wilt deserves the 6 spot (or Maybe Shaq does and Wilt should be 7). I could easily drop LJ to 8, honestly.

There just isn't a world in which Kobe is the second greatest player ever. He's not even the second best Laker of all time. You might be able to talk me into taking him 4th or 5th in a draft of Lakers who played there enough to be quintessentially "Lakers."

 

[navery12]

I thought we reached the peak of absurd takes yesterday but here we are today and they get worse

 

[Huskyforlife]

As if there’s no “this guy played 30 years before the other guy so he’s obviously better” bias.

This is why I try not to involve myself in arguments about old players. People can't help but romanticize the era they grew up in.

 

[Mr. French]

Spot on. Best ranking I’ve seen yet.

He did say that wasn't in order, but it actually looks fairly close.

I'd add Shaq to say he's no chance Kobe is any higher than 12.

 

[HuskyFich]

6 for 6 in the finals is a feat that will never be broken! It makes him the GOAT.

But, acting like 8 straight years to the finals isn’t a big deal, or leading an entire finals in pts, rebs, assts, steals and blocks (like what!?).....isn’t fair to LeBron’s legacy.

My argument against Wilt is this...if he was so damn dominant(obviously), why does he have 2 rings to Bill Russell’s 11? And should that be a deciding factor in all time ranking?

 

[mrl2016]

Jordan was a sliver away from having more than 6.

Lebron was a sliver away from having one. In probably the worst decade of eastern conference basketball the league has ever seen.

Rewatch both of these, Lebron bricked a three right before Ray Allen saved him




Kyrie Irving's Clutch 3 Pointer Cavaliers vs Warriors Game 7 June 19, 2016 2016 NBA Finals

 

[MilliniumPrince]

6 for 6 in the finals is a feat that will never be broken! It makes him the GOAT.

But, acting like 8 straight years to the finals isn’t a big deal, or leading an entire finals in pts, rebs, assts, steals and blocks (like what!?).....isn’t fair to LeBron’s legacy.

My argument against Wilt is this...if he was so damn dominant(obviously), why does he have 2 rings to Bill Russell’s 11? And should that be a deciding factor in all time ranking?

To be fair to Wilt, those Celtics teams were incredibly deep. They were the original super team. Most teams are happy to have multiple all stars, they had multiple Hall of Famers.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Jordan was a sliver away from having more than 6.

Lebron was a sliver away from having one. In probably the worst decade of eastern conference basketball the league has ever seen.

Rewatch both of these, Lebron bricked a three right before Ray Allen saved him




Kyrie Irving's Clutch 3 Pointer Cavaliers vs Warriors Game 7 June 19, 2016 2016 NBA Finals

Dude they would’ve been nowhere near the Spurs without LeBron that game. Had a triple-double and dominated in the 4th. He misses one 3 pointer and people say Ray saved him, so annoying.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Dude they would’ve been nowhere near the Spurs without LeBron that game. Had a triple-double and dominated in the 4th. He misses one 3 pointer and people say Ray saved him, so annoying.

It is truly one of the most absurd common thoughts in sports. Followed closely by "Kyrie saved him". Yes, in a game scored over 40 points, in a series he dominated, Kyrie "saved" him. FOH. People forget the game was tied and had he missed, it wasn't over.

 

[superjohn]

Jordan is the Goat for the overwhelming majority of people. I don't think it's close but I can understand some trying to make the argument for Lebron. What I don't understand is anyone trying to make the argument for Bill Russell. Haven't seen anyone here say it but I've seen at least a few articles say he's the best ever.

I get that Russell won a million championships. I get that he was an amazing defender and rebounder but averaging 15 ppg on 44% field goals from a guy who was bigger, faster, and more athletic than everyone besides Wilt is really unimpressive. There's no way the greatest player ever can be that anemic on the offensive end. He's clearly an all-timer but I don't see any argument for him being top 3 let alone #1.

 

[HuskyFich]

To be fair to Wilt, those Celtics teams were incredibly deep. They were the original super team. Most teams are happy to have multiple all stars, they had multiple Hall of Famers.

So are we being fair to LeBron's losses to GSW and SA?

 

[methodology]

So are we being fair to LeBron's losses to GSW and SA?

What if kyrie and love become HOFers then he had 3 also

 

[HuskyFich]

What if kyrie and love become HOFers then he had 3 also

Of course! No disrespect at all!

But when GSW has 3 of the top 8 shooters of all time (Deepest team ever too)....

/just playin devils advocate here man

 

[tzznandrew]

Dude they would’ve been nowhere near the Spurs without LeBron that game. Had a triple-double and dominated in the 4th. He misses one 3 pointer and people say Ray saved him, so annoying.

Well, because if Ray misses that shot they lose the Finals. The blame doesn't fall on James, but it is a fact that Ray saved that Heat team.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Well, because if Ray misses that shot they lose the Finals. The blame doesn't fall on James, but it is a fact that Ray saved that Heat team.

Heat were down 10 going into the 4th. LeBron almost singlehandedly brought them back and Ray hit an incredibly clutch 3. But people act like the only thing LeBron did in that 4th was miss the previous 3. Without his play they would’ve been down and out.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

So are we being fair to LeBron's losses to GSW and SA?

The reason I rank Lebron #1 is because he accomplished so much while usually being outgunned. People forget how limited D-Wade was in that last run in Miami. That said, he did lose and that has to be taken into account.

In Wilt's case, he had great teams but they were not close to the depth of Russell's Celtics. Pull up his rosters in Philly and compare them to Boston's. I believe Wilt averaged something like 38 and 22 against Russell over their careers. There wasn't much more he could do.

 

[superjohn]

The reason I rank Lebron #1 is because he accomplished so much while usually being outgunned. People forget how limited D-Wade was in that last run in Miami. That said, he did lose and that has to be taken into account.

In Wilt's case, he had great teams but they were not close to the depth of Russell's Celtics. Pull up his rosters in Philly and compare them to Boston's. I believe Wilt averaged something like 38 and 22 against Russell over their careers. There wasn't much more he could do.

Lebron was pretty much nonexistent in that Dallas finals. It was all a really bad look and stain on his legacy from how he performed to him making fun of Dirk for having a 102 temperature.

Game 2 Heat were up at home by 15 points with 6 minutes left and Mavericks basically bageled the Heat for the rest of the game to tie the series 1-1. Game 4 after Lebron and Wade made fun of Dirk for having a 102 temperature the Heat were in total control again up huge in the 4th quarter about to make the series 3-1 for Miami and Lebron was nowhere to be found again while Dirk willed his team to victory where they never looked back.

Wade was way better than Lebron in that finals.

 

[Huskyforlife]

Another thing to consider when talking about Lebrons finals record are how great the teams he played were. Those GSW teams were the greatest of all time, the Spurs with Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Manu/Diaw were amazing(4 HOF on that team+arguably greatest coach of all time). The young Thunder he beat were absurdly talented.

The 2011 Mavs series will always be his weak spot in the GOAT argument. No excuses, he didn't play up to expectations that year.

 

[methodology]

Another thing to consider when talking about Lebrons finals record are how great the teams he played were. Those GSW teams were the greatest of all time, the Spurs with Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Manu/Diaw were amazing(4 HOF on that team+arguably greatest coach of all time). The young Thunder he beat were absurdly talented.

The 2011 Mavs series will always be his weak spot in the GOAT argument. No excuses, he didn't play up to expectations that year.

Duncan was on his last legs. But yes the those Spurs teams sometimes get overlooked because they weren't flashy

 

[tzznandrew]

Heat were down 10 going into the 4th. LeBron almost singlehandedly brought them back and Ray hit an incredibly clutch 3. But people act like the only thing LeBron did in that 4th was miss the previous 3. Without his play they would’ve been down and out.

He brought them back pretty quick and then they had the lead 87-84 with the ball with 3:35 left.

3:18 - James offensive foul (kind of a bogus call, but he was right in front of the ref)
3:05 - Duncan misses, Wade rebound
2:43 - Wade misses fall away badly
2:35 - Manu makes a layup (87-86)
2:09 - Wade gets 2 free throws (not set up by James, though he set a damn near moving pick to get Chalmers into the paint)
1:48 - after a Ginobili miss that Wade can't rebound but pops into the air towards James, James nearly comes up with the lose ball but there's a pincer from Parker and Green that gets it from him. Not his fault, but...
1:28 - Parker hits a 3 over James (89-89)
1:08 - In a play set up for Wade, bad Chalmers TO
0:58 - Parker scores on Chalmers (89-91)
0:42 - after Iso-ing on Parker for 10 seconds, James tries to post him up and turns it over
0:37 - Foul on Ray Allen as, due to James' TO, Ginobili was about to get a layup. He hits both (
89-93)
0:30 - James airballs a bad shot in the lane. Ginobili rebound. Allen fouls him. He hits 1 of 2 (89-93).
0:28 - James bricks (like, badly off to the right) a WIDE OPEN 3.
0:20 - after a scrum for the rebound, ball falls to him again, and he hits a clutch shot. (92-93)
0:19 - Kawhi fouled. Hits both. (92-95)
0:10 - James misses a good look at 3
0:05 - Allen hits the big shot (95-95)
0:00 - James trucks Tony Parker out of bounds. OT.

James was on fire to start the 4th quarter, but after 4:42, when he gave them the 87-84 lead, he was dreadful. 1-5 (with some ugly misses), 2 turnovers, no rebounds, no assists.

Watching that game live, you felt like you were watching an epic collapse. It's why I went and watched the 4th quarter because they weren't playing, really. They were tied by 6:38 and James was clearly the best player on the court. And then...

 

[tzznandrew]

Another thing to consider when talking about Lebrons finals record are how great the teams he played were. Those GSW teams were the greatest of all time, the Spurs with Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Manu/Diaw were amazing(4 HOF on that team+arguably greatest coach of all time). The young Thunder he beat were absurdly talented.

The 2011 Mavs series will always be his weak spot in the GOAT argument. No excuses, he didn't play up to expectations that year.

True, though another thing to note in his stretch of Finals appearances is that most of those teams aren't coming out of the West. He benefited from an insanely weak East.

We can poke holes in anyone's resume. I think LeBron is fantastic. Second best player I've seen. I also don't hold any of those series against him but Dallas. I also highly regard Baylor & West, who lost a ton in the Finals. There's only so much you can do. A weird thing with James, though, is that he got a lot of say in who played with him. That last Heat team and the last Cavs team were both partially hurt by management trying to make James happy.