ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[Lefty2one]

Shaq is a weird case. If he was committed to the game (or at least staying in shape) he would have had a shot at being the #2 center of all time after Kareem. He was the modern day Wilt in so many ways, on the court and off it. He also played with insanely talented players: Kobe, Wade, and Penny in their primes. He then has weird knocks against him, like being swept out of the playoffs six times. It's odd that a player who was so dominant would be swept that often. He was lazy on defense for most of his career. Of course he showed up to camp out of shape all the time.

LeBron and MJ are/were something to behold but Shaq is the biggest physical freak I've ever seen, especially in his younger days when he was more mobile. Peak Shaq is as good as anyone in terms of pure dominance. The league had so many great centers back then and Shaq destroyed all of them, at least offensively. Overpowering tough, big, legendary centers before he turned 25.

 

[Mr. French]

To be clear, in the Pippen / Wade discussion, I wasn't KNOCKING Wade's overall game, he just wasn't the passer and defender that Pip was. He may have been good at those things, but Pippen was better. And Wade was a better scorer.

No biggie, they're both great, I just think saying "Pippen didn't have what it takes to lead a team on his own to a chip," which @superjohn said, when Wade did it (sort of) once, is unfair. That's all. I also said "I see your point."

I'd probably rank those guys very similarly in the NBA pantheon.

The "criminally underrated" part is in the general fan's talking points, because everyone says exactly that: "He had Jordan, he wouldn't be anywhere as good without him!" I disagree with that, he was a stud.

cc: @superjohn @tzznandrew @Lefty2one

 

[PAHusky]

Shaq is a weird case. If he was committed to the game (or at least staying in shape) he would have had a shot at being the #2 center of all time after Kareem. He was the modern day Wilt in so many ways, on the court and off it. He also played with insanely talented players: Kobe, Wade, and Penny in their primes. He then has weird knocks against him, like being swept out of the playoffs six times. It's odd that a player who was so dominant would be swept that often. He was lazy on defense for most of his career. Of course he showed up to camp out of shape all the time.

LeBron and MJ are/were something to behold but Shaq is the biggest physical freak I've ever seen, especially in his younger days when he was more mobile. Peak Shaq is as good as anyone in terms of pure dominance. The league had so many great centers back then and Shaq destroyed all of them, at least offensively. Overpowering tough, big, legendary centers before he turned 25.

Solid points about Shaq. I remember as a kid growing up in PA watching that Sixers-Lakers finals and thinking maybe the Sixers could pull it off after game 1, but there was just no answer at all for Shaq in his prime. It seemed like if he got the ball in the paint it was just over. Before you knew it your bigs were in foul trouble and he was mashing and the game was over.

I would love to see what would happen if prime shaq entered the league now. Has the game shifted so much that he'd be shooting a 3 once in awhile? Would he instead just zig when the league zags and play caveman ball like Lebron did to the warriors the finals where he was playing with the g league squad? Fascinating stuff.

To me again Jordan is 1(a) Lebron 1(b). Jordan better mentally and had a better career. Lebron is the queen on the chessboard and probably the best pure bball player ever.

 

[PAHusky]

I also really enjoyed this article, and it makes some good points. Jordan and Pippen were all world defenders, but by today's standards they're tiny. How are they stopping Durant from shooting over them? Giannis? Interesting stuff.

Michael Jordan Dominated His Era, but He Wouldn’t Rule This One

While ‘The Last Dance’ showcased the Bulls legend’s greatness, it also served as a reminder of just how much time has passed—and just how far the game has come

www.theringer.com

 

[Lefty2one]

I don't get the notion that they're tiny. The average height in the NBA has been 6'7 for eons. Pippen was the prototype SF at 6'8 210. Jordan at 6'6 212 is still the average size for SGs.

What modern players are doing anything to stop KD or Giannis? They're freaks. There is no one-man answer for the best players; there never has been.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I also really enjoyed this article, and it makes some good points. Jordan and Pippen were all world defenders, but by today's standards they're tiny. How are they stopping Durant from shooting over them? Giannis? Interesting stuff.

Michael Jordan Dominated His Era, but He Wouldn’t Rule This One

While ‘The Last Dance’ showcased the Bulls legend’s greatness, it also served as a reminder of just how much time has passed—and just how far the game has come

www.theringer.com

And that is why people are saying Steph can't succeed. He is too small for today's NBA. He is a midget compared to Jordan and Pippen.

 

[Mr. French]

I don't get the notion that they're tiny. The average height in the NBA has been 6'7 for eons. Pippen was the prototype SF at 6'8 210. Jordan at 6'6 212 is still the average size for SGs.

What modern players are doing anything to stop KD or Giannis? They're freaks. There is no one-man answer for the best players; there never has been.

1,000%

Also hate when people talk about "athleticism" nowadays ... I played 20 years ago and coach kids now that are in no way more athletic than my peers, regardless of how many trainers they go to. That helps them, it doesn't make them suddenly unstoppable Monstars.

Michael Jordan is and always will be one of the most athletic 2 guards ever. Larry Bird wasn't a great "athlete" in any era, but he could play. I know guys that aren't great athletes that will give the best athlete on the floor 40. It's very indicative of people not really knowing how playing basketball actually works.

 

[UConnSean]

1,000%

Also hate when people talk about "athleticism" nowadays ... I played 20 years ago and coach kids now that are in no way more athletic than my peers, regardless of how many trainers they go to. That helps them, it doesn't make them suddenly unstoppable Monstars.

Michael Jordan is and always will be one of the most athletic 2 guards ever. Larry Bird wasn't a great "athlete" in any era, but he could play. I know guys that aren't great athletes that will give the best athlete on the floor 40. It's very indicative of people not really knowing how playing basketball actually works.

Did you read the article?

 

[Mr. French]

Did you read the article?

No.

I didn't quote the article either.

I quoted someone's commentary on your commentary on the article, and most of my post was not in reference to the article or your points, but generally about young kids talking how 80s and 90s athletes couldn't hack it in today's "athleticism."

Really, the only part that even touched on your article was when I said "1,000%" in agreement with @Lefty2one point.

 

[UConnSean]

No.

I didn't quote the article either.

I quoted someone's commentary on your commentary on the article, and most of my post was not in reference to the article or your points, but generally about young kids talking how 80s and 90s athletes couldn't hack it in today's "athleticism."

Really, the only part that even touched on your article was when I said "1,000%" in agreement with @Lefty2one point.

hahah it wasn't my article man and i was just genuinely curious if you read it because it touched on some of your comments a bit...

 

[BlueMAB]

I can't finish that article...the guy states too many dumb opinions as facts. Here's an example.

"Anytime that 2020 Jordan were to play with a nonshooter, that player’s defender would clog the lane and force him to give up the ball. "

Does this guy really think Jordan never faced double-teams?

Clog the lane? Jordan played in the era of 7' centers who didn't stray far from the paint on defense.

 

[PAHusky]

I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.

 

[BlueMAB]

I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.

I'm not convinced that the league is bigger, stronger, and faster. (I'm not arguing it isn't either)

I think the only thing obvious is that the bigger, stronger players, (frontcourt players) are much more comfortable playing much farther away from the basket than they used to.

 

[Mr. French]

hahah it wasn't my article man and i was just genuinely curious if you read it because it touched on some of your comments a bit...

Haha I gotcha - I didn't read it but was planning on it once I get a few minutes.

Didn't mean to come across as a D.

 

[Mr. French]

I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.

I think that's definitely true. Overall, guys are bigger, stronger, faster. But the top 10% of the league are probably going to be really good no matter what era they play in.

 

[UConnSean]

Haha I gotcha - I didn't read it but was planning on it once I get a few minutes.

Didn't mean to come across as a D.

All good man!

 

[superjohn]

I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.

Who are all the guys now that are stronger than the guys in the 90's? Point guards are bigger now but who are all these power forwards and centers now who are stronger than the power forwards and centers in the 90's?

 

[Scoe]

Whenever you have a debate just have a simulation on whatifsport.com, have a best of 7 series.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Who are all the guys now that are stronger than the guys in the 90's? Point guards are bigger now but who are all these power forwards and centers now who are stronger than the power forwards and centers in the 90's?

The overall athleticism and versatility in today’s league is as good/better than it’s ever been.

 

[Chin Diesel]

The overall athleticism and versatility in today’s league is as good/better than it’s ever been.

Your mixing arguments. The question was asking which power forwards in today's NBA are stronger and more powerful than the PF's in the 1990's.

 

[superjohn]

The overall athleticism and versatility in today’s league is as good/better than it’s ever been.

I agree with that but the big guys don't look stronger to me and they definitely aren't more physical.

 

[Lefty2one]

I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.

It's not bigger. The data shows that. There are larger players doing more guard/perimeter things though. I except the league to grow smaller in the next decade but we'll see. The NBA has been the same size since the 70s, which is pretty cool to think about but also makes sense: you can do all sorts of things to improve your strength, flexibility, diet, etc. but there's nothing you can do to make players taller.

I don't think it's stronger either because strength isn't as important as skill is now. There aren't any enforcer PFs anymore, guys whose top attribute was raw human strength. Same with some of the big, lumbering, strong centers. You take away a slew of players who were out there because they were big and strong and I think it brings down the strength across the board. Not a bad thing, just different. The average weight for SF, PF, and C has decreased in the last decade.

Players are quicker now, more agile/mobile, players are better ballhandlers now, players are better shooters now, in general I'd say they're better leapers but not by a huge margin. The overall skill level is higher now across the board. Back to those enforcers, most of those guys wouldn't have a prayer of making it in today's league. Charles Oakley is not playing in today's NBA. You don't want to be a big hulking guy in today's league.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I agree with that but the big guys don't look stronger to me and they definitely aren't more physical.

Definitely. There’s no one like Malone, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Those guys were brick walls.

 

[Lefty2one]

Definitely. There’s no one like Malone, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Those guys were brick walls.

Which makes sense given how the game is played. Back then when everything was post-oriented you needed to be able to move your man on the block, or if you're a defender be able to not give up any ground. Strength was a huge deal. It was simply a more physical game by nature: if teams are posting up a ton and shooting far less jumpers, it's just going to be less physical. Post play is more physical than perimeter play. Anyone who's played pickup basketball at the park can tell you that.

You want to be as mobile and agile as possible in the NBA. In general, that's going to mean giving up bulk and strength.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Definitely. There’s no one like Malone, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Those guys were brick walls.

Go back to the 70's with Artis Gilmore or 80's with Mark Eaton and Tree Rollins. Those were brick walls.