ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[tzznandrew]

That cavs team with Mo williams Shaq and Antwan Jamison was terrible. Jamison a hall of famer? That’s insane.

That team won 61 games. They were good, and were expected to go to the Finals.

There are 50 players who have 20K points . Here's the list of players in that list who aren't in the Hall of Fame (or who aren't definitely going to make it): Tom Chambers. That's it. I think there's a decent chance Jamison makes it, even if I don't think he deserves it.

even the heat team wasn’t all it was hyped it to be either. Who’s better Pippen or Wade? Rodman and horace Grant vs Bosh?

I take Bosh over both Rodman and Horace Grant easily. Especially Grant, but Rodman gives you very good rebounding and defense and no offense. You get way more offense from Bosh and also very good defense. Peak Bosh is getting you 22 and 10 with strong defense.

Wade and Pippen is a toss up. Wade was the alpha on a title team, a great scorer, and at his peak an All-NBA Defensive player (3x). Pippen is obviously the greatest perimeter defender ever. By Win Shares and VORP, they're roughly equal. By Box P/M Wade is +5 and Pippen +4. By PER Wade by a lot.

Those Heat teams were loaded at the top. Frankly, the depth of those Bulls teams beyond Jordan and Pippen was pretty bleak, particularly in that second three peat.

 

[Chin Diesel]

That team won 61 games. They were good, and were expected to go to the Finals.

There are 50 players who have 20K points and aren't in the HOF. Here's the list of players in that list who aren't in the Hall of Fame (or who aren't definitely) going to make it: Tom Chambers. That's it. I think there's a decent chance Jamison makes it, even if I don't think they're great.



I take Bosh over both Rodman and Horace Grant easily. Especially Grant, but Rodman gives you very good rebounding and defense and no offense. You get way more offense from Bosh and also very good defense. Peak Bosh is getting you 22 and 10 with strong defense.

Wade and Pippen is a toss up. Wade was the alpha on a title team, a great scorer, and at his peak an All-NBA Defensive player (3x). Pippen is obviously the greatest perimeter defender ever. By Win Shares and VORP, they're roughly equal. By Box P/M Wade is +5 and Pippen +4. By PER Wade by a lot.

Those Heat teams were loaded at the top. Frankly, the depth of those Bulls teams beyond Jordan and Pippen was pretty bleak, particularly in that second three peat.

Agree on peak Wade over peak Pippen. Wade led a team to a championship as the alpha and clearly had confidence of everyone he could be the man.

Disagree on Bosh over Rodman. In a vacuum, yes, Bosh is better. But on these superstar type teams where points aren't an issue, Rodman has the two skills that every great team needs- defense and rebounding.

 

[Lefty2one]

Kyrie didn't really show up until game three, as usual.

He was unreal though. Games 3-7:

30.8 / 4.4 / 4.2 plus 1.8 steals on an insane .508 / .467 / .952 split.

For the series Steph was 22.6 / 4.9 / 3.7 (with a brutal 4.3 TOV/g). Shot .403 / .400 / .929

 

[Lefty2one]

I take Bosh over both Rodman and Horace Grant easily. Especially Grant, but Rodman gives you very good rebounding and defense and no offense. You get way more offense from Bosh and also very good defense. Peak Bosh is getting you 22 and 10 with strong defense.

Wade and Pippen is a toss up. Wade was the alpha on a title team, a great scorer, and at his peak an All-NBA Defensive player (3x). Pippen is obviously the greatest perimeter defender ever. By Win Shares and VORP, they're roughly equal. By Box P/M Wade is +5 and Pippen +4. By PER Wade by a lot.

Those Heat teams were loaded at the top. Frankly, the depth of those Bulls teams beyond Jordan and Pippen was pretty bleak, particularly in that second three peat.

It's pretty funny. Bosh was an 11x All Star. He was a much better player than Horace Grant (even if Grant is a bit underappreciated in terms of the Bulls dynasty).

Peak Wade was ridiculous. It's one of my hotter takes but I don't think there's a huge gap between peak Wade and peak Kobe. Peak Wade was as good as any player in the league.

LeBron's supporting casts of Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and AD is ridiculous. The guy didn't have much help during his initial stint in CLE but since then he's played with a ton of talent. Those core of guys has made x16 All-NBA teams and 42 All-Star teams.

 

[superjohn]

The second 3 finals he played in Jordan wasnt nearly as dominant. First three his numbers are insane. You can’t cherry pick moments from lebrons Career and say well if ray misses that shot or this.

That cavs team with Mo williams Shaq and Antwan Jamison was terrible. Jamison a hall of famer? That’s insane.

even the heat team wasn’t all it was hyped it to be either. Who’s better Pippen or Wade? Rodman and horace Grant vs Bosh?

And with all that said I take Jordan pretty clearly, but lack of appreciation for LeBron by some is odd.

Wade is better than Pippen and I don't consider it close. Pippen was a great player but that espn list is a joke. They have Pippen ranked way ahead of Drexler, ahead of Barkley, Wade, Elgin Baylor, David Robinson etc.

Rodman and Bosh are so hard to compare. Rodman was an amazing rebounder and defender, Bosh an offensive force. Bosh was way better than Horace Grant.

 

[methodology]

In a series where he was clearly the best player on either side, you pick a 4 minute stretch to say he got lucky. Ok.

That's not what he said. Being the best player doesn't equal they should have won the series.

He's pointing out when it was crunch time with game on the line... if Ray doesn't hit that 3 the narrative would have been Lebron choked. The Ray 3 saved his bum

 

[Dean Wormer]

Magic Johnson pretty much sums it up in eight words: "There's Michael, then there's the rest of us."

This is my take on it too. Fans can go back and forth all they want, but when I hear a Larry Bird saying Steph Curry is the best shooter he’s ever seen, or dozens of players, going back to Bill Russell, the Logo, etc. all agreeing that Jordan’s the GOAT, that’s when it means something.
LBJ has earned the right to have the question asked, but Michael Jordan is the GOAT. And he didn’t have to run to a stacked team full of his buddies to win a ring, either. Imagine if Magic and Bird had plotted to bring MJ to a team so they could play together? Nobody would beat that team. Nobody. And I’m sure they wouldn’t lose in the playoffs either.

 

[superjohn]

Game tying or go ahead baskets in playoff games under 24 seconds of regulation or overtime- Jordan 50%, Lebron 36%, Kobe 28%.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Game tying or go ahead baskets in playoff games under 24 seconds of regulation or overtime- Jordan 50%, Lebron 36%, Kobe 28%.

 

[superjohn]

View attachment 54449

First reply, lol...

 

[CardiacAndre7]

First reply, lol...
View attachment 54450

I’m not saying one or the other is the GOAT, just giving a response statistic. The notion that LeBron isn’t clutch is outdated and misinformed. Not saying you said that, just that a lot of people have/do.

 

[huskyrob1]

Magic Johnson pretty much sums it up in eight words: "There's Michael, then there's the rest of us."

Magic was the most incredible player I ever saw in college, thought he was better than MJ. In the pros MJ was #1 in my book.

 

[methodology]

View attachment 54449

Is there a stat for 5 seconds. 24 seconds to 10 seconds to 5 seconds

Last shot game on line who are you taking... MJ or Lebron?

Any sane person is saying MJ without hesitation

 

[superjohn]

My top 10-

1) Jordan
2) Lebron
3) Kareem
4) Magic and Bird (tied)
6) Wilt
7) Russell
8) Hakeem
9) Duncan
10) Shaq

Oscar, Kobe, Dr. J outside looking in.

I see a lot of these all-time lists and often Bird is underrated. When he came to the Celtics they were in last place. Bird was basically done at 31 with a debilitating back but gutted it out a few more years off of sheer grit and skill.

When Bird was drafted the Celtics went from worst to first. They were 29-53 the season before Larry got there, Bird's rookie year they went 61-21. For that 7 year prime before his back got the best of him Bird averaged 27 ppg, 10 rebs, 6 assist, 2 steals, 51% fg, 39.5% 3pt. 89% ft. In Bird's prime he was the best player in the world, slightly ahead of Magic. When people talk about the greateat players ever Magic is always at the top and Bird seems like an afterthought.

Both Bird and Magic's careers were cut too short.

 

[huskyrob1]

My top 10-

1) Jordan
2) Lebron
3) Kareem
4) Magic and Bird (tied)
6) Wilt
7) Russell
8) Hakeem
9) Duncan
10) Shaq

Oscar, Kobe, Dr. J outside looking in.

I see a lot of these all-time lists and often Bird is underrated. When he came to the Celtics they were in last place. Bird was basically done at 31 with a debilitating back but gutted it out a few more years off of sheer grit and skill.

When Bird was drafted the Celtics went from worst to first. They were 29-53 the season before Larry got there, Bird's rookie year they went 61-21. For that 7 year prime before his back got the best of him Bird averaged 27 ppg, 10 rebs, 6 assist, 2 steals, 51% fg, 39.5% 3pt. 89% ft. In Bird's prime he was the best player in the world, slightly ahead of Magic. When people talk about the greateat players ever Magic is always at the top and Bird seems like an afterthought.

Both Bird and Magic's careers were cut too short.

A lot of people forget what a dominant player Bird was in college as well. He was a one man wrecking crew, brought Indiana State to the NCAA finals IIRC. Lost to Magic and Michigan State.

 

[huskyfever34]

Between Lebron and MJ there is no wrong choice, just a matter of preference. I have Lebron ahead, but both are deserving.

My beef is the rest of the list. May he Rest In Glory, but Kobe was far too inefficient to be top 10. He played almost half his career as Shaq's "Robin" and still never managed a great FG%. Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Dr. J, hell KD are all great non-bigs and all shot at least 48% from the field. You can't be inefficient at the thing that is your best attribute. His career numbers are almost identical to Carmelo's.

Excellent points. Agree Jordan and Lebron is super close, and I feel bad saying it but Kobe is fringe top 10 at best

 

[MilliniumPrince]

He was unreal though. Games 3-7:

30.8 / 4.4 / 4.2 plus 1.8 steals on an insane .508 / .467 / .952 split.

For the series Steph was 22.6 / 4.9 / 3.7 (with a brutal 4.3 TOV/g). Shot .403 / .400 / .929

Agreed. But if he shows up game one, that series never goes seven games. For the hype he gets, he should get a pass on always showing up late in big series.

Curry, as great as he is, has Steve Nash Syndrome. The uncanny ability of a well regarded PG to make absolutely brutal turnovers in tight playoff games.

 

[huskyfever34]

The problem with your analysis is that the level of talent greatly diminished as time passed.

Jordan had to go against Bird, Issiah, Magic, Wilkins, Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwan, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, and so many more all stars.

Lebron is amazing, but honestly, the NBA during the Lebron era pales into comparison with the heavy weights the Jordan faced every game.

Jordan > Lebron

So which team Jordan beat in the finals would you say was better than the Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green Warriors? Which was better than the Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Popovich-coached Spurs?

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Excellent points. Agree Jordan and Lebron is super close, and I feel bad saying it but Kobe is fringe top 10 at best

Kobe was so prolific it is hard to push him lower. Personally, I think Dirk had a better but less spectacular career. I don't have Kobe in my top 10. I think he and Dirk fall somewhere between 15 - 20.

 

[huskyfever34]

Lebron's a freak physical talent but his flopping is an embarrassment which is why he may be top 10 or even top 5 but #2 is a stretch. I could never imagine MJ or Wilt getting grazed by someone's hand and falling down and rolling around on the floor like they got hit with a tire iron.

That should be more a reflection of how the modern NBA is officiated, with more ticky-tack calls and flagrants, than a condemnation of Lebron himself. It's almost stupid not to react to fouls that way these days to earn FT's. If you want to say there's an embarrasing extreme of that look at Harden.

 

[huskyfever34]

Take a look at the top 25 in this list and compare how many of them Jordan competed against and how many of them Lebron competed against. Jordan competed against more of the all-time greats than Lebron has.

Your saying none of Giannis, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, and his other contemporaries have no chance of getting there someday? Obviously Jordan's contemporaries can be judged and placed because we can look at the whole sample of their careers.

 

[huskyfever34]

Wade is better than Pippen and I don't consider it close. Pippen was a great player but that espn list is a joke. They have Pippen ranked way ahead of Drexler, ahead of Barkley, Wade, Elgin Baylor, David Robinson etc.

Rodman and Bosh are so hard to compare. Rodman was an amazing rebounder and defender, Bosh an offensive force. Bosh was way better than Horace Grant.

But Wade by his 3rd year with Lebron was already a defenseive liability because of his bad knee. By his 4th year he was practically washed. Just look at the couple years after that if you don't believe me. Lebron only got 2 years of playing with the "better than Pippen version" of Wade and year 1 they struggled to coexist due to poor coaching and being hated by fans everywhere.

 

[Huskyforlife]

Legend X says player X is the goat has to be the worst sports argument.

 

[superjohn]

Legend X says player X is the goat has to be the worst sports argument.

Why? Great players tend to recognize greatness in other players a lot better than random people who don't play the game do.

 

[ncteacher]

Did anyone ever average a triple double for their entire NBA career?

Only two players have averaged a triple double for a season, never mind a career. I thought maybe Oscar Robinson would be close, but he wasn't.