ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[tzznandrew]

Another thing to consider when talking about Lebrons finals record are how great the teams he played were. Those GSW teams were the greatest of all time, the Spurs with Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Manu/Diaw were amazing(4 HOF on that team+arguably greatest coach of all time). The young Thunder he beat were absurdly talented.

The 2011 Mavs series will always be his weak spot in the GOAT argument. No excuses, he didn't play up to expectations that year.

You also have to put the 2010 Cavs on that list. Jamison is going to find a way into the Hall and that whole season averaged 18.7 and 8.4. Shaq was an excellent 6th man (12-7). Mo Williams was coming off an All Star year and in the middle of a 5 year stretch where he averaged 16.5 ppg and 5.5 apg on 40% shooting from 3. They had talent and won 61 games. Losing to a 50 win Celtics team--especially the way they did--is absolutely as bad as what happened to the 2011 Heat in the Finals.

 

[mauconnfan]

This is why I try not to involve myself in arguments about old players. People can't help but romanticize the era they grew up in.

So obviously that would go both ways. In that case I agree.

 

[superjohn]

He brought them back pretty quick and then they had the lead 87-84 with the ball with 3:35 left.

3:18 - James offensive foul (kind of a bogus call, but he was right in front of the ref)
3:05 - Duncan misses, Wade rebound
2:43 - Wade misses fall away badly
2:35 - Manu makes a layup (87-86)
2:09 - Wade gets 2 free throws (not set up by James, though he set a damn near moving pick to get Chalmers into the paint)
1:48 - after a Ginobili miss that Wade can't rebound but pops into the air towards James, James nearly comes up with the lose ball but there's a pincer from Parker and Green that gets it from him. Not his fault, but...
1:28 - Parker hits a 3 over James (89-89)
1:08 - In a play set up for Wade, bad Chalmers TO
0:58 - Parker scores on Chalmers (89-91)
0:42 - after Iso-ing on Parker for 10 seconds, James tries to post him up and turns it over
0:37 - Foul on Ray Allen as, due to James' TO, Ginobili was about to get a layup. He hits both (
89-93)
0:30 - James airballs a bad shot in the lane. Ginobili rebound. Allen fouls him. He hits 1 of 2 (89-93).
0:28 - James bricks (like, badly off to the right) a WIDE OPEN 3.
0:20 - after a scrum for the rebound, ball falls to him again, and he hits a clutch shot. (92-93)
0:19 - Kawhi fouled. Hits both. (92-95)
0:10 - James misses a good look at 3
0:05 - Allen hits the big shot (95-95)
0:00 - James trucks Tony Parker out of bounds. OT.

James was on fire to start the 4th quarter, but after 4:42, when he gave them the 87-84 lead, he was dreadful. 1-5 (with some ugly misses), 2 turnovers, no rebounds, no assists.

Watching that game live, you felt like you were watching an epic collapse. It's why I went and watched the 4th quarter because they weren't playing, really. They were tied by 6:38 and James was clearly the best player on the court. And then...

I remember that game so well. The Kawhi missed ft and Ray three pointer saved Lebron's legacy. Lebron would've gotten absolutely killed had those 2 things not happened.

He caught another enormous break when Draymond got suspended which was bogus but Lebron's whole legacy changed with those those moments. They don't happen and he would've been labeled a choker which would've been unfair.

 

[tzznandrew]

I remember that game so well. The Kawhi missed ft and Ray three pointer saved Lebron's legacy. Lebron would've gotten absolutely killed had those 2 things not happened.

He caught another enormous break when Draymond got suspended which was bogus but Lebron's whole legacy changed with those those moments. They don't happen and he would've been labeled a choker which would've been unfair.

Ginobili missed 1, and then LeBron hit a 3 to bring it to 1. Kawhi hit both and then Ray scored. I just watched it.

 

[superjohn]

You also have to put the 2010 Cavs on that list. Jamison is going to find a way into the Hall and that whole season averaged 18.7 and 8.4. Shaq was an excellent 6th man (12-7). Mo Williams was coming off an All Star year and in the middle of a 5 year stretch where he averaged 16.5 ppg and 5.5 apg on 40% shooting from 3. They had talent and won 61 games. Losing to a 50 win Celtics team--especially the way they did--is absolutely as bad as what happened to the 2011 Heat in the Finals.

Jamison is weird, I never ever considered him a Hall of Fame type player but his #'s say he should be a Hall of Fame player.

He's never getting into the Hall though.

 

[tzznandrew]

Jamison is weird, I never ever considered him a Hall of Fame type player but his #'s say he should be a Hall of Fame player.

He's never getting into the Hall though.

I think he sucks.

I think he gets in. Not because I think he deserves it, but because his numbers are better than people in the Hall.

I'd be happy to be wrong.

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

Ginobili missed 1, and then LeBron hit a 3 to bring it to 1. Kawhi hit both and then Ray scored. I just watched it.

Lebron haters crack me up. Ray hits a clutch shot but its not like Lebron didnt put the team on his back up to that point even during that game

 

[superjohn]

Ginobili missed 1, and then LeBron hit a 3 to bring it to 1. Kawhi hit both and then Ray scored. I just watched it.

Nope, Lebron went 1-4 with a couple turnovers and 2 airballs in the final minute but one of the those aiballs was recovered and passed to Lebron for a made 3. Spurs were up 2 with 19 seconds left, Kawhi had a chance to ice it and missed 1 of 2 ft's. Lebron missed another 3, Bosh got the rebound and passed to Ray for the 3 to tie it.

 

[tzznandrew]

Nope, Lebron went 1-4 with a couple turnovers and 2 airballs in the final minute but one of the those aiballs was recovered and passed to Lebron for a made 3. Spurs were up 2 with 19 seconds left, Kawhi had a chance to ice it and missed 1 of 2 ft's. Lebron missed another 3, Bosh got the rebound and passed to Ray for the 3 to tie it.

Yeah. **** Both Kawhi and Ginobili went 1-of-2 in the final minute.

 

[tzznandrew]

Lebron haters crack me up. Ray hits a clutch shot but its not like Lebron didnt put the team on his back up to that point even during that game

Well, I was wrong on this one. But also, LeBron was terrible in the last 4+ minutes of that game.

 

[tzznandrew]

Nope, Lebron went 1-4 with a couple turnovers and 2 airballs in the final minute but one of the those aiballs was recovered and passed to Lebron for a made 3. Spurs were up 2 with 19 seconds left, Kawhi had a chance to ice it and missed 1 of 2 ft's. Lebron missed another 3, Bosh got the rebound and passed to Ray for the 3 to tie it.

To be fair, he went 1-5 and only had 1 airball.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Lebron was pretty much nonexistent in that Dallas finals. It was all a really bad look and stain on his legacy from how he performed to him making fun of Dirk for having a 102 temperature.

Game 2 Heat were up at home by 15 points with 6 minutes left and Mavericks basically bageled the Heat for the rest of the game to tie the series 1-1. Game 4 after Lebron and Wade made fun of Dirk for having a 102 temperature the Heat were in total control again up huge in the 4th quarter about to make the series 3-1 for Miami and Lebron was nowhere to be found again while Dirk willed his team to victory where they never looked back.

Wade was way better than Lebron in that finals.

No one is arguing that point. But sure. I have always said that Finals is as big as stain as carrying the 07 team was a gold star.

But the finals against Dallas brings up another interesting point. His disappearance was 90% his fault, but does the coach deserve some blame? He watched the opposing coach against his strategy and did nothing to counter. There is no Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, or Pop in his past. He has taken every coach in his career to the Finals except Coach Silas and Walton (who was only with him the season he got hurt). Four of those coaches were first time coaches. Two lost their jobs once he left and are yet to get another job.

Everyone to whom he is compared played for a HOF coach.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Well, I was wrong on this one. But also, LeBron was terrible in the last 4+ minutes of that game.

Go back and watch the overtime of that game. Then look at his impact on the entire series.

 

[tzznandrew]

Go back and watch the overtime of that game. Then look at his impact on the entire series.

I mean, read what I wrote. Throughout the thread.

His excellence in getting them the lead and in winning in OT is a fact.

Also, he was abominable for the last 4:30 of regulation.

Those two things can be true. And if Ray Allen misses, nobody is remembering that he scored 16 points in the 4th quarter on 7-11 shooting. They're rightly remembering that all those misses and two TOs came as they blew a lead with under 3 minutes left at home and lost a series.

 

[Lefty2one]

It is truly one of the most absurd common thoughts in sports. Followed closely by "Kyrie saved him". Yes, in a game scored over 40 points, in a series he dominated, Kyrie "saved" him. FOH. People forget the game was tied and had he missed, it wasn't over.

All true. The biggest storyline in that series though, besides Dray being a moron and getting suspended, was Kyrie outplaying Steph by a pretty comfortable margin. LeBron played out of his mind that series but Kyrie wasn't far behind.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I mean, read what I wrote. Throughout the thread.

His excellence in getting them the lead and in winning in OT is a fact.

Also, he was abominable for the last 4:30 of regulation.

Those two things can be true. And if Ray Allen misses, nobody is remembering that he scored 16 points in the 4th quarter on 7-11 shooting. They're rightly remembering that all those misses and two TOs came as they blew a lead with under 3 minutes left at home and lost a series.

And he had a triple double and kept his team in the whole game.

 

[tzznandrew]

And he had a triple double and kept his team in the whole game.

And, for the last 4:30 sucked. I don't see how these things are incompatible. His team had the lead, then they didn't, and if Ray Allen didn't hit a 3 they lose.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

And, for the last 4:30 sucked. I don't see how these things are incompatible. His team had the lead, then they didn't, and if Ray Allen didn't hit a 3 they lose.

And for about 90% of the game he was amazing. Why nitpick a miraculous performance in a back against the wall game?

 

[Kenny11]

different era arguments can go forever but imagine Jordan in today’s nba with the spacing he would have to work with on offense. No he wouldn’t average 45. That’s nuts. But he would certainly be way over 30 ppg and probably so many more assists with actual shooters around him. The triangle sucks now.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

All true. The biggest storyline in that series though, besides Dray being a moron and getting suspended, was Kyrie outplaying Steph by a pretty comfortable margin. LeBron played out of his mind that series but Kyrie wasn't far behind.

Kyrie didn't really show up until game three, as usual. And I believe the biggest storyline was coming back from being down 3-1.

Another point I find fascinating. The Myth of Kyrie. Take out his years riding Lebron's coattails and tell me what he has accomplished.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I mean, read what I wrote. Throughout the thread.

His excellence in getting them the lead and in winning in OT is a fact.

Also, he was abominable for the last 4:30 of regulation.

Those two things can be true. And if Ray Allen misses, nobody is remembering that he scored 16 points in the 4th quarter on 7-11 shooting. They're rightly remembering that all those misses and two TOs came as they blew a lead with under 3 minutes left at home and lost a series.

In a series where he was clearly the best player on either side, you pick a 4 minute stretch to say he got lucky. Ok.

 

[Burnsbros23]

Nope, Lebron went 1-4 with a couple turnovers and 2 airballs in the final minute but one of the those aiballs was recovered and passed to Lebron for a made 3. Spurs were up 2 with 19 seconds left, Kawhi had a chance to ice it and missed 1 of 2 ft's. Lebron missed another 3, Bosh got the rebound and passed to Ray for the 3 to tie it.

didn’t he score 16 in the fourth quarter that game?

 

[Burnsbros23]

The second 3 finals he played in Jordan wasnt nearly as dominant. First three his numbers are insane. You can’t cherry pick moments from lebrons Career and say well if ray misses that shot or this.

That cavs team with Mo williams Shaq and Antwan Jamison was terrible. Jamison a hall of famer? That’s insane.

even the heat team wasn’t all it was hyped it to be either. Who’s better Pippen or Wade? Rodman and horace Grant vs Bosh?

And with all that said I take Jordan pretty clearly, but lack of appreciation for LeBron by some is odd.

 

[zepfan]

The real farce is that LeBron isn't ranked #1 AND #2. He's that great that he deserves the top two slots.

Flopping disqualifies LJ from any discussion of best ever. The mere thought of it would have disgusted the players of the 80s and 90s. You need to deceive the referee to get the better of your opponent??? If LJ flopped on Jordan or Bird they would each get into his head and make sure he knew he was inferior to them. Wilt, Kareem, Bill Russell, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley would just laugh at him. LJ has been coddled by a much more offense friendly league. Jordan got physically assaulted by the Pistons and just got more determined - never thinking how can I "play dead" to trick the referees. The mental toughness of Jordan, Magic, and Bird would see the flopping and quickly recognize that he has a weakness. Jordan and Bird were pure, cold blooded assassins compared to LJ. Lebron is one of the greatest but not better than Jordan. Arguably better than Bird due to his extraordinary physical abilities. JMHO

 

[tzznandrew]

In a series where he was clearly the best player on either side, you pick a 4 minute stretch to say he got lucky. Ok.

Again, that's not what I wrote.

He had a great series. But his team also blew a late lead and if it weren't for Allen they would hav lost, and James played terrible in that stretch.

Players have great series all the time and people don't remember it when their team loses. I don't see why this is hard. Donyell Marshall spent a whole year averaging 25 and 9 on 52% shooting and 25 years later people almost solely bring up the missed FTs. That's the reality.