ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake | Page 9 | The Boneyard

ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

Mr. French said:
I think Pippen is criminally underrated. Wade did that once, with Shaq and a good cast. Pippen only had one season to try it and he got to the ECF with a great, MVP type season.

I get your point because they’re different types of offensive players... Pip was not the pure scorer Wade was but I dno if that makes Wade clearly better. In fact, Pippens all around game is so much better than Wade, I weigh that pretty heavily.
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Criminally underrated? They have him ranked #21 all time, 36 spots ahead of Clyde Drexler.

Pippen wasn't as good as Garnett but he was similar to Garnett in that he didn't have the offensive game to take a team all the way. It's why Wade and Dirk are better than them.
 
Lefty2one said:
I think we were separated at birth.
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We have been eerily on the same page in these NBA discussions. And, to make it more eery, I share you peak Kobe vs. peak Wade thought. I think you can even find it posted on this site.

Peak Wade was a beast.
 
Huskyforlife said:
Another thing to consider when talking about Lebrons finals record are how great the teams he played were. Those GSW teams were the greatest of all time, the Spurs with Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Manu/Diaw were amazing(4 HOF on that team+arguably greatest coach of all time). The young Thunder he beat were absurdly talented.

The 2011 Mavs series will always be his weak spot in the GOAT argument. No excuses, he didn't play up to expectations that year.
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That’s true but they showed a stat going to commercial last night where MJ/Pippen won 7 playoff series against 60+ win teams....an NBA record.
 
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Chin Diesel said:
He is in discussion with Olajuwon for 4th best C all time.

No one is slotting him above the Big 3 of Jabbar, Wilt or Russell.
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You would be one of the people under rating him. Russell and wilts era is so hard to compare. Their numbers in some of their finals are so odd. Like 11 pts 25 rebounds. Shaqs numbers in those three final wins. My goodness.

I think shaq is absolutely right there with wilt and Russell. Kareem ill give you.

their is not many players I am Taking over a prime Shaq simply unstoppable.
 
Burnsbros23 said:
You would be one of the people under rating him. Russell and wilts era is so hard to compare. Their numbers in some of their finals are so odd. Like 11 pts 25 rebounds. Shaqs numbers in those three final wins. My goodness.

I think shaq is absolutely right there with wilt and Russell. Kareem ill give you.

their is not many players I am Taking over a prime Shaq simply unstoppable.
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Russell is the guy punching above his weight. He reminds me a bit of Yogi Berra of being on the right team at the right time to enhance his numbers. Let's face it. When Russell flashes two hands and every finger has a ring and he's still holding one in his palm, you have to start quantifying that.

Wilt, I think is underrated and people just look at him for his size and dominance. I look at Wilt and see a dude who was a borderline all-American in 400/800 track and high jump. He was a phenomenal athlete who was still a high level athlete in his 50's. I think his combination of size, strength and speed translates to any era of basketball. No way Shaq is going on the beaches of SoCal and playing beach volleyball. And even a Shaq in his prime isn't doing the high jump.
 
Burnsbros23 said:
You would be one of the people under rating him. Russell and wilts era is so hard to compare. Their numbers in some of their finals are so odd. Like 11 pts 25 rebounds. Shaqs numbers in those three final wins. My goodness.

I think shaq is absolutely right there with wilt and Russell. Kareem ill give you.

their is not many players I am Taking over a prime Shaq simply unstoppable.
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Shaq was just brute force. My dad used to say Shaq is just “Wes Unseld with size”. Same game, but damn near twice as big, and peak Washington Bullets Unseld was a beast.
 
Shaq is a weird case. If he was committed to the game (or at least staying in shape) he would have had a shot at being the #2 center of all time after Kareem. He was the modern day Wilt in so many ways, on the court and off it. He also played with insanely talented players: Kobe, Wade, and Penny in their primes. He then has weird knocks against him, like being swept out of the playoffs six times. It's odd that a player who was so dominant would be swept that often. He was lazy on defense for most of his career. Of course he showed up to camp out of shape all the time.

LeBron and MJ are/were something to behold but Shaq is the biggest physical freak I've ever seen, especially in his younger days when he was more mobile. Peak Shaq is as good as anyone in terms of pure dominance. The league had so many great centers back then and Shaq destroyed all of them, at least offensively. Overpowering tough, big, legendary centers before he turned 25.
 
To be clear, in the Pippen / Wade discussion, I wasn't KNOCKING Wade's overall game, he just wasn't the passer and defender that Pip was. He may have been good at those things, but Pippen was better. And Wade was a better scorer.

No biggie, they're both great, I just think saying "Pippen didn't have what it takes to lead a team on his own to a chip," which @superjohn said, when Wade did it (sort of) once, is unfair. That's all. I also said "I see your point."

I'd probably rank those guys very similarly in the NBA pantheon.

The "criminally underrated" part is in the general fan's talking points, because everyone says exactly that: "He had Jordan, he wouldn't be anywhere as good without him!" I disagree with that, he was a stud.

cc: @superjohn @tzznandrew @Lefty2one
 
Lefty2one said:
Shaq is a weird case. If he was committed to the game (or at least staying in shape) he would have had a shot at being the #2 center of all time after Kareem. He was the modern day Wilt in so many ways, on the court and off it. He also played with insanely talented players: Kobe, Wade, and Penny in their primes. He then has weird knocks against him, like being swept out of the playoffs six times. It's odd that a player who was so dominant would be swept that often. He was lazy on defense for most of his career. Of course he showed up to camp out of shape all the time.

LeBron and MJ are/were something to behold but Shaq is the biggest physical freak I've ever seen, especially in his younger days when he was more mobile. Peak Shaq is as good as anyone in terms of pure dominance. The league had so many great centers back then and Shaq destroyed all of them, at least offensively. Overpowering tough, big, legendary centers before he turned 25.
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Solid points about Shaq. I remember as a kid growing up in PA watching that Sixers-Lakers finals and thinking maybe the Sixers could pull it off after game 1, but there was just no answer at all for Shaq in his prime. It seemed like if he got the ball in the paint it was just over. Before you knew it your bigs were in foul trouble and he was mashing and the game was over.

I would love to see what would happen if prime shaq entered the league now. Has the game shifted so much that he'd be shooting a 3 once in awhile? Would he instead just zig when the league zags and play caveman ball like Lebron did to the warriors the finals where he was playing with the g league squad? Fascinating stuff.

To me again Jordan is 1(a) Lebron 1(b). Jordan better mentally and had a better career. Lebron is the queen on the chessboard and probably the best pure bball player ever.
 
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I also really enjoyed this article, and it makes some good points. Jordan and Pippen were all world defenders, but by today's standards they're tiny. How are they stopping Durant from shooting over them? Giannis? Interesting stuff.

www.theringer.com

Michael Jordan Dominated His Era, but He Wouldn’t Rule This One

While ‘The Last Dance’ showcased the Bulls legend’s greatness, it also served as a reminder of just how much time has passed—and just how far the game has come
www.theringer.com www.theringer.com
 
I don't get the notion that they're tiny. The average height in the NBA has been 6'7 for eons. Pippen was the prototype SF at 6'8 210. Jordan at 6'6 212 is still the average size for SGs.

What modern players are doing anything to stop KD or Giannis? They're freaks. There is no one-man answer for the best players; there never has been.
 
PAHusky said:
I also really enjoyed this article, and it makes some good points. Jordan and Pippen were all world defenders, but by today's standards they're tiny. How are they stopping Durant from shooting over them? Giannis? Interesting stuff.

www.theringer.com

Michael Jordan Dominated His Era, but He Wouldn’t Rule This One

While ‘The Last Dance’ showcased the Bulls legend’s greatness, it also served as a reminder of just how much time has passed—and just how far the game has come
www.theringer.com www.theringer.com
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And that is why people are saying Steph can't succeed. He is too small for today's NBA. He is a midget compared to Jordan and Pippen.
 
Lefty2one said:
I don't get the notion that they're tiny. The average height in the NBA has been 6'7 for eons. Pippen was the prototype SF at 6'8 210. Jordan at 6'6 212 is still the average size for SGs.

What modern players are doing anything to stop KD or Giannis? They're freaks. There is no one-man answer for the best players; there never has been.
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1,000%

Also hate when people talk about "athleticism" nowadays ... I played 20 years ago and coach kids now that are in no way more athletic than my peers, regardless of how many trainers they go to. That helps them, it doesn't make them suddenly unstoppable Monstars.

Michael Jordan is and always will be one of the most athletic 2 guards ever. Larry Bird wasn't a great "athlete" in any era, but he could play. I know guys that aren't great athletes that will give the best athlete on the floor 40. It's very indicative of people not really knowing how playing basketball actually works.
 
Mr. French said:
1,000%

Also hate when people talk about "athleticism" nowadays ... I played 20 years ago and coach kids now that are in no way more athletic than my peers, regardless of how many trainers they go to. That helps them, it doesn't make them suddenly unstoppable Monstars.

Michael Jordan is and always will be one of the most athletic 2 guards ever. Larry Bird wasn't a great "athlete" in any era, but he could play. I know guys that aren't great athletes that will give the best athlete on the floor 40. It's very indicative of people not really knowing how playing basketball actually works.
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Did you read the article?
 
UConnSean said:
Did you read the article?
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No.

I didn't quote the article either.

I quoted someone's commentary on your commentary on the article, and most of my post was not in reference to the article or your points, but generally about young kids talking how 80s and 90s athletes couldn't hack it in today's "athleticism."

Really, the only part that even touched on your article was when I said "1,000%" in agreement with @Lefty2one point.
 
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Mr. French said:
No.

I didn't quote the article either.

I quoted someone's commentary on your commentary on the article, and most of my post was not in reference to the article or your points, but generally about young kids talking how 80s and 90s athletes couldn't hack it in today's "athleticism."

Really, the only part that even touched on your article was when I said "1,000%" in agreement with @Lefty2one point.
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hahah it wasn't my article man and i was just genuinely curious if you read it because it touched on some of your comments a bit...
 
I can't finish that article...the guy states too many dumb opinions as facts. Here's an example.

"Anytime that 2020 Jordan were to play with a nonshooter, that player’s defender would clog the lane and force him to give up the ball. "

Does this guy really think Jordan never faced double-teams?

Clog the lane? Jordan played in the era of 7' centers who didn't stray far from the paint on defense.

 
I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.
 
PAHusky said:
I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.
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I'm not convinced that the league is bigger, stronger, and faster. (I'm not arguing it isn't either)

I think the only thing obvious is that the bigger, stronger players, (frontcourt players) are much more comfortable playing much farther away from the basket than they used to.
 
UConnSean said:
hahah it wasn't my article man and i was just genuinely curious if you read it because it touched on some of your comments a bit...
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Haha I gotcha - I didn't read it but was planning on it once I get a few minutes.

Didn't mean to come across as a D.
 
PAHusky said:
I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.
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I think that's definitely true. Overall, guys are bigger, stronger, faster. But the top 10% of the league are probably going to be really good no matter what era they play in.
 
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PAHusky said:
I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.
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Who are all the guys now that are stronger than the guys in the 90's? Point guards are bigger now but who are all these power forwards and centers now who are stronger than the power forwards and centers in the 90's?
 
Whenever you have a debate just have a simulation on whatifsport.com, have a best of 7 series.
 
superjohn said:
Who are all the guys now that are stronger than the guys in the 90's? Point guards are bigger now but who are all these power forwards and centers now who are stronger than the power forwards and centers in the 90's?
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The overall athleticism and versatility in today’s league is as good/better than it’s ever been.
 
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