ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[BleedHuskyBlu]

MJ was dominant and transformed the game using the entire floor as a weapon. Chamberlain shaped low post big man basketball for years. Bird brought the low post drive and long range dagger. Johnson transformed the point guard position. LJ is hugely dominant using his physicality in iso but hasn’t changed the game IMO. For that reason MJ is GOAT, Chamberlain is next, then Bird and Magic as toss up, and then LJ. Whatever the case, you’re talking about simply extraordinary players head and shoulders above their peers.

hahaha Lebron 5th now thats funny. Lebron has the greatest basketball mind to ever play the game. No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.

 

[tzznandrew]

People also act like it was 1985 for all of MJ's career and 2019 for all of LeBron's. Nearly every major player that LeBron did battle with for the first decade of his career was in the NBA when MJ was on the Wizards, giving people buckets at 40 years of age with a sliver of his prime athleticism.

They also act like the quality of the league was all 1997 for Jordan and all 2019 for LeBron. The league is much better now than it was in 1997 for a variety of reasons (expansion diluting the pool, a series of potential stars getting money and not sticking with their game, etc.), but that same crappy league was still the same crappy league in 2007. I mean, people talk about LeBron dragging a terrible Cavs team to the Finals in 2007, but they went through:

41-41 Wizards
41-41 Nets
53-29 Pistons

That Cavs team was a 2-seed, too, not a 5 or seed or anything. They were, thus, one of the favorites to come out of the East (though everyone assumed it would be the declining Pistons).

And, just on record (and their record would be worse if they were in the West), they'd have been the 6-seed out West playing the Spurs team that swept them. That's literally what would have happened to them, just in the first round rather than the Finals.

 

[BlueMAB]

No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.

 

[Lefty2one]

No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.

The same LeBron who forced guys like Kevin Love and Chris Bosh to be nothing more than floor spacers/corner three guys? lol

 

[tzznandrew]

hahaha Lebron 5th now thats funny. Lebron has the greatest basketball mind to ever play the game. No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.

I mean, hyperbole is great and all, but that's a meaningless statement.

First, there's no way to prove it. Like, I could just as well argue by fiat that Magic, Bird, and Robertson made their teammates better than LeBron did pretty easily. How do you calculate that? Players playing with Shaq look pretty damn good. Same with Hakeem. But I genuinely don't see how you can make that argument with a straight face with ignoring Magic, even if we ignore the others.

Players who play with LeBron have to sacrifice so much more than with some of the other greats, too, because as good a passer as he is, he needs to initiate the offense in a way so many others did.

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

Tristan Thompson aint getting a Max contract playing with Jordan ill tell you that.

 

[Lefty2one]

Players who play with LeBron have to sacrifice so much more than with some of the other greats, too, because as good a passer as he is, he needs to initiate the offense in a way so many other greats did.

Exactly this. Players, no matter how good, had to fit into LeBron's style of play. He does the lion's share of the work and you space the floor, whether your a scrub or an All-Star. You're going to have to accept a reduced role.

 

[navery12]

Exactly this. Players, no matter how good, had to fit into LeBron's style of play. He does the lion's share of the work and you space the floor, whether your a scrub or an All-Star. You're going to have to accept a reduced role.

Are we pretending players didn't need to adjust to playing with MJ too?

 

[tzznandrew]

Exactly this. Players, no matter how good, had to fit into LeBron's style of play. He does the lion's share of the work and you space the floor, whether your a scrub or an All-Star. You're going to have to accept a reduced role.

Bird and Magic, just to pick two, could fit into any system and make the whole team better.

Magic started and won a title on a team centered on Kareem. Then they built it around him for the Showtime Lakers, and then he was in the Finals against Jordan with a team that ranked 25 out of 27 teams in Pace. Dude could play any style.

 

[mauconnfan]

Lebron is great he will always have an argument to be a Top 2,3 whatever. But he would've easily been the games biggest whiner (may be anyway) ever had he played back when Michael played that's a no brainer. The more I have a chance to watch the '84 Celts stuff, the Pistons stuff and Michaels stuff because there's nothing on I can't believe how hard and physical they played in comparison to todays game. Watching a C's game vs the Hawks and Kevin Willis guarding McHale and Wilkins guarding Larry as they are both backing people in and getting physically hammered while doing so, it was crazy tough basketball in those days. No reviews for hard fouls like today with pansy crap it as basketball. To win it all you had to be really really tough mentally and physically for 40 minutes a game.

I mean it's Michael as to who #1 is and it's not really close.

 

[tzznandrew]

Are we pretending players didn't need to adjust to playing with MJ too?

Well, that wasn't what we were responding to. MJ has nothing to do with that.

 

[UConnSean]

This is a brutal take by Morey. MJ was in the NBA one season before LeBron's rookie year. People act like there was some massive gap in the time MJ retired and LeBron's career. People also act like it was 1985 for all of MJ's career and 2019 for all of LeBron's. Nearly every major player that LeBron did battle with for the first decade of his career was in the NBA when MJ was on the Wizards, giving people buckets at 40 years of age with a sliver of his prime athleticism.

Did Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Shaq, Kobe, Chris Webber, Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Steve Nash, and co all magically get significantly more athletic in the years after MJ retired? Because those are the guys who were LeBron's main competition for more than half of his career.

I'm not saying the NBA isn't more athletic in 2020 than it was in 1985, obviously it is, but this notion that MJ played his entire career against far inferior athletes than LeBron did is way off base.

I'm not sure he was being literal with his 30 years comment. I think his point was that athletes continue to get better as time goes on. The increased technology and the increased competition is undoubtedly leading to better athletes. Athletes progress over time just like anything in life

 

[mauconnfan]

hahaha Lebron 5th now thats funny. Lebron has the greatest basketball mind to ever play the game. No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.

How does he have the greatest basketball mind? He has a really good one but there were so many great minds who played the game. His mind isn't any better than Magics or Larrys that's for sure. And I know all of their teammates got better around their games too.

 

[mauconnfan]

I'm not sure he was being literal with his 30 years comment. I think his point was that athletes continue to get better as time goes on. The increased technology and the increased competition is undoubtedly leading to better athletes. Athletes progress over time just like anything in life

Great players would have adjusted to the game though because they are great. Agree many of the middle of the bench guys would have a tough time against many of the athletes of this day but not the great ones, they'd fit in fine.

 

[tzznandrew]

How does he have the greatest basketball mind? He has a really good one but there were so many great minds who played the game. His mind isn't any better than Magics or Larrys that's for sure. And I know all of their teammates got better around their games too.

LeBron has one of the best minds ever, but this dude is either trolling really hard or just someone who likes to spout completely unprovable statements.

 

[mauconnfan]

Well, that wasn't what we were responding to. MJ has nothing to do with that.

You answering me?

 

[tzznandrew]

You answering me?

You must have someone blocked.

 

[Lefty2one]

Are we pretending players didn't need to adjust to playing with MJ too?

No, where'd you get that from?

But for giggles, which All-Stars teamed up with MJ and in turn had to take on a reduced roll? Not just in involvement but in how they played the game?

 

[Lefty2one]

LeBron has one of the best minds ever, but this dude is either trolling really hard or just someone who likes to spout completely unprovable statements.

Based on his avy it's pretty clear he's trolling but in the middle of this quarantine I'm bored out of my mind and more than willing to play with a troll lol.

 

[navery12]

Well, that wasn't what we were responding to. MJ has nothing to do with that.

No, where'd you get that from?

But for giggles, which All-Stars teamed up with MJ and in turn had to take on a reduced roll? Not just in involvement but in how they played the game?

Because it's an MJ/LeBron discussion and it seemed like you were implying LeBron is unique in that other stars take lesser roles to play with him

 

[tzznandrew]

Based on his avy it's pretty clear he's trolling but in the middle of this quarantine I'm bored out of my mind and more than willing to play with a troll lol.

Yup.

 

[tzznandrew]

Because it's an MJ/LeBron discussion and it seemed like you were implying LeBron is unique in that other stars take lesser roles to play with him

Do you have someone blocked? We were specifically responding to someone who said "No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has."

 

[navery12]

You must have someone blocked.

He must have blocked me again for some reason, his posts keep appearing and then disappearing for me every few days

 

[navery12]

Do you have someone blocked? We were specifically responding to someone who said "No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has."

Don't have him blocked, I just took his post to be LeBron vs MJ since it was responding to a post about MJ being the best. But maybe that's not what he was saying

 

[tzznandrew]

Don't have him blocked, I just took his post to be LeBron vs MJ since it was responding to a post about MJ being the best. But maybe that's not what he was saying

If your argument is that LeBron is the best because nobody was better at making his teammates better and I can point out reasons why that isn't even remotely true, it undercuts his points without reference to Jordan.

The Jordan vs. LeBron debate there gets complicated. Certainly LeBron is a better passer, but it's impossible to quantify what having someone like Jordan does for everyone. We know that about Curry, for instance. You can't leave the guy alone and, regardless of how good a passer he is, everyone on the court is better because of him. Steve Kerr got wide open shots because of Jordan and, later, Duncan. Both of those guys were made Kerr way better.