OT: - Enoch visiting Louisville | Page 4 | The Boneyard

OT: Enoch visiting Louisville

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The notion that he is a terrible player is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous. It's been the truth the last 2 years.

The narrative even before his freshman year was that he was young and raw - but would become a beast his junior and senior year. He obviously had a lot of work to do, especially defensively, but you could see glimpses of his offensive talent and I was excited for that to grow here. He certainly could have used more minutes, but he's gone - he'll probably benefit from a year off and be productive wherever he goes.

It seems some people forget that you get better at doing things with more experience. The kid was a young sophomore

But that's not to say he wouldn'tve gotten better. Obviously I'd like to have him as part of the rotation this year. You invest 2 years into a guy and suffered through when he played poorly, you want to reap any rewards of improved play. It's a bummer. But how good will he end up? Who knows, he's starting from a pretty low spot, so any improvement will have to be pretty extreme. He's got tools though (which is why high majors are taking a look).
 
C

Chief00

If Calhoun would refute you, then I'm going to have to side against you on this one Chief.

I'll grant you that there seems to have been something wrong in the connection between Glen and Enoch. He certainly didn't develop, and he and his family seemed to think different coaches would have enabled him to develop.

Fair enough. But to me Enoch and Durham not improving more was a real bad sign for the program and this will make it really difficult to recruit informed Bigs.
 
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"... he is starting from a pretty low spot"

NO ... he is not. Enoch is gifted. That is what one side of the BY is trying to highlight. He is physically blessed and that is why a Louisville or other major top 25 Programs will try to eke out that talent. Did he play abysmally bad defense at times? No question. But ... the simple definitive statement that he sucks simply does not correspond to the reality. And for those that insist that I have presented basic insight ... it is that simple. He is Big and Wide. His Hands - which I always think are incredibly underappreciated in hoop - are excellent. His offense shows signs of subtle fine attention to post moves. What I saw disappointed me because it speaks to a kid that does not seriously effort his way through his minutes on the court. Blocking out (he was better than Brimah) is effort. And being aggressive on YOUR man is a point of pride. You are not going to convince me that he should have gotten 20 minute pg just because we needed him in 2017-2018.
 
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I'd rather put the players on the floor who give the team the best opportunity to win. If a guy can't get onto the floor, he needs to do the things in practice and in his limited playing time to prove he needs more minutes.
 
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Rick Pitino seems to think he's good enough to take up a scholarship for the next three years - Pitino's pretty good at this sort of thing, so perhaps we're wrong and Enoch actually has potential.

Has anybody said otherwise though? I mean, the bar has certainly been set even higher than Louisville with regards to his potential. The NBA is watching, or at least they were when he stepped on campus. Bilas said way back in November of 2015 that he was the best pro prospect on the roster.

It doesn't surprise me that a guy like Pitino would see the potential and take a flier. Store him for a year, have him train and practice against a top 10 type team, then roll him out there as a junior and see where he is. If he isn't far enough along after that, he probably grad transfers down a level after his junior year.

I've been hard on the staff, but nothing about him visiting Louisville tells us anything we didn't already know. It may very well be that the staff sucks at developing big men, but him transferring up a level isn't in and of itself an indictment on the staff.

And for what it's worth, there is a 0.0% chance that Enoch would have seen the floor for Pitino this year. V.J. King only played 13 minutes a game because of defense, and he was a lot further along than Enoch at the other end. He's about as big a stickler for the things that Steve wasn't as they come.
 
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I'd rather put the players on the floor who give the team the best opportunity to win. If a guy can't get onto the floor, he needs to do the things in practice and in his limited playing time to prove he needs more minutes.

Agreed. People seem to forget that the coaches see a lot more of these kids than fans do. A coach isn't going to throw a kid out on the court, even if the season is lost, if the player isn't showing enough during practice. Those minutes still have to be earned. Based on what we saw during games from Enoch, and for all of Brimah's shortcomings, there's no way he was showing enough in practice or earning those minutes.
 
C

Chief00

"... he is starting from a pretty low spot"

NO ... he is not. Enoch is gifted. That is what one side of the BY is trying to highlight. He is physically blessed and that is why a Louisville or other major top 25 Programs will try to eke out that talent. Did he play abysmally bad defense at times? No question. But ... the simple definitive statement that he sucks simply does not correspond to the reality. And for those that insist that I have presented basic insight ... it is that simple. He is Big and Wide. His Hands - which I always think are incredibly underappreciated in hoop - are excellent. His offense shows signs of subtle fine attention to post moves. What I saw disappointed me because it speaks to a kid that does not seriously effort his way through his minutes on the court. Blocking out (he was better than Brimah) is effort. And being aggressive on YOUR man is a point of pride. You are not going to convince me that he should have gotten 20 minute pg just because we needed him in 2017-2018.

Good analysis. With the right type of effort and focus he can become a load inside.
 

August_West

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I've silently watched people on this board pummel your @ss for six years like a promiscuous gay sailor getting a train from a drunken contingent of womenless comrades who have been at sea far too long, and I've actually felt bad for you. There have been a few gems and diamonds in the rough mixed in with the crawler/bucket loads of gravel and chaff, and you seem genuine, as hard as that is to believe.

BUT COME ON. The only UConn player that Enoch has ever been better than was that dude who brought his chair to the highlight video. And man, I'm not talking about the dude (can't believe I can't remember his name - I liked him. Looked like the Predator) I'M TALKING ABOUT THE CHAIR.

I'm going to drink Kool-Aid right now and join the flat earth conspiracy theorists on this board who believe that you're Fishy's bizzarro-world alter ego, playing Pluto to his Goofy, to drum up page hits and clicks to sell the banner ads here. Hay zeus, you got me.

Post/handle epic melt.
 
C

Chief00

I've silently watched people on this board pummel your @ss for six years like a promiscuous gay sailor getting a train from a drunken contingent of womenless comrades who have been at sea far too long, and I've actually felt bad for you. There have been a few gems and diamonds in the rough mixed in with the crawler/bucket loads of gravel and chaff, and you seem genuine, as hard as that is to believe.

BUT COME ON. The only UConn player that Enoch has ever been better than was that dude who brought his chair to the highlight video. And man, I'm not talking about the dude (can't believe I can't remember his name - I liked him. Looked like the Predator) I'M TALKING ABOUT THE CHAIR.

I'm going to drink Kool-Aid right now and join the flat earth conspiracy theorists on this board who believe that you're Fishy's bizzarro-world alter ego, playing Pluto to his Goofy, to drum up page hits and clicks to sell the banner ads here. Hay zeus, you got me.
Welcome abroad - congratulations on your 9th post - it's great to see casual fans getting more engaged and attempting to move up the learning curve.

Of course, you are very wrong about a lot of things including your analysis of Enoch but that's besides the point. So now you believe you can assess talent better than Rick Pitino - it's truly a great country!
 
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"... he is starting from a pretty low spot"

NO ... he is not. Enoch is gifted. That is what one side of the BY is trying to highlight. He is physically blessed and that is why a Louisville or other major top 25 Programs will try to eke out that talent. Did he play abysmally bad defense at times? No question. But ... the simple definitive statement that he sucks simply does not correspond to the reality. And for those that insist that I have presented basic insight ... it is that simple. He is Big and Wide. His Hands - which I always think are incredibly underappreciated in hoop - are excellent. His offense shows signs of subtle fine attention to post moves. What I saw disappointed me because it speaks to a kid that does not seriously effort his way through his minutes on the court. Blocking out (he was better than Brimah) is effort. And being aggressive on YOUR man is a point of pride. You are not going to convince me that he should have gotten 20 minute pg just because we needed him in 2017-2018.

You quoted that badly out of context (I think? Couldn't follow your argument to the end). He's starting from a low spot of production, independent of any gifts. There is no refuting that. I said right after that he had the tools, but they didn't translate to anything while at UConn.
 

pj

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Enoch is immature and didn't work hard enough to improve, especially on effort-based tasks like defense and rebounding. Immature kids often grow up. He has all the physical tools to excel as a basketball player. Maybe the maturity will come. A change of scenery will be good for him as it means you can't blame failure on your coaches, so forces some introspection. The transfer also gives him an extra year of college ball which he needs. We shall see.

I hope Enoch becomes a good player. I wouldn't worry about his success making Ollie look bad, these things happen, Ollie's reputation is in his own hands, if UConn succeeds no one will care if a good player got away.
 
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The issue I have with the coaching staff is:
1. they don't seem to be able to develop bigs
2. they keep bringing in projects at that position
Something has to change to reconcile those two points.

This is exactly it. You can't bring in projects if your big man coach isn't capable of developing projects into polished big men.
 

Huskyforlife

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Rick Pitino seems to think he's good enough to take up a scholarship for the next three years - Pitino's pretty good at this sort of thing, so perhaps we're wrong and Enoch actually has potential.
Pshhhh, what could make you think that?
 
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People responding to that Louisville article are pretty down on the lack of development of recent bigs under Pitino. Read the responses. Their bigs can't make layups, have no low post moves, etc.
 
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Welcome abroad - congratulations on your 9th post - it's great to see casual fans getting more engaged and attempting to move up the learning curve.

Of course, you are very wrong about a lot of things including your analysis of Enoch but that's besides the point. So now you believe you can assess talent better than Rick Pitino - it's truly a great country!


Ok Chief - I have laid off you myself for some of your misguided (sometimes bordering on ridiculous) claims and stances that you take. You sometimes make good points and do have some amusing stories from being somewhere around the program (although referring to yourself in the 3rd person is just as lame and douchey on here as it was by "Jimmy" in Seinfeld 20 years ago).

But your view on this one is totally out of touch with the reality that we all witnessed over Steve's first two years here, and this last year with Juwan.

Steve first: although I would say that Steve does have a chance to take his natural abilities and turn himself into at least a decent Division 1 player by his senior year, you are absolutely full of crap to sit here and act like:

a) he has the potential to be the next Emeka Okafor (or anywhere close)
b) it was all Glenn Miller and KO's fault that he showed almost no development over his two years here
c) Coach Calhoun would have definitely gotten all of that talent out of him.

I realize for you and some others that it fits your ongoing narrative on both KO and Miller, but the fact is that some (not all, but some) of the blame for his lack of development has to lie with Steve himself. Go back and watch his play. Fact is, he was horrible on defense, and erratic on offense. Additionally, he shot 41% this year... as a big man. And as others have pointed out, he shot even worse (7 for 24) against good competition. An individual's improvement is never solely reliant upon coaching. I played sports when I was younger too... and I know that if I was not getting better that a significant amount of the responsibility was on ME. Same goes here with Steve. He obviously was not working on his game nor working to develop his awareness on the court consistently enough.

Can that change as he matures (after all he is young for a sophomore)? Yes. And I hope for his sake that it does. But as for his two years here... sorry, HIS EFFORT was consistently lacking. That is a fact. So let's say that its 50% on him and 50% on the coaches where Steve is concerned.

As for Durham... throwing him into any discussion on this perceived trend of "lack of improvement" by our big men is disingenuous at least, and ridiculous at most. How could you say he "did not improve"? This year was all about getting Juwan back on the court and keeping him healthy through a full year of basketball! That in and of itself was a huge step forward for him.

He just missed two straight years with serious knee injuries! Everyone here (other than you and a few others) realize that the big victory with Juwan was just KEEPING HIM HEALTHY through the rigors of an entire 4-month schedule. Anything else is a totally false narrative because it was going to take him this whole year just to get comfortable in his own mind that he was not going to blow out one of his knees again. Frankly, the coaching staff did an excellent job bringing him along slowly... particularly when you have to know that KO wanted to play him more when we were so short-handed earlier in the year. KO did what was in the best interest of health and well-being for that young man. KO deserves credit for how he handled Durham this year, not criticism.

I am definitely more disappointed to see Durham go than Enoch.

As for Coach Calhoun - one of the greatest coaches ever... period, end of story. Like practically everyone else on this message board, I will forever be thankful for what he built at UConn, and how he did it. HOWEVER - The other part of your false narrative that JC would have "automatically" gotten the best out of Steve is categorically untrue. I will debunk your "statements of fact" on that one right now:

Have you ever heard of Toraino Walker? That guy peaked for us... in his freshman year. JC was NEVER able to get out of him the full potential he showed during the 1990 Big East Tournament. In fact... Toraino left the program right before the start of his senior year, having never fulfilled that potential for greatness he showed 2 1/2 years earlier. Sometimes, guys like Toraino (really nice, quiet guy, by the way... used to come to our off-campus parties) and yes, STEVE TOO, do not want it badly enough. It is ok, it is part of being human. Not everyone has the drive or passion to turn their physical abilities into basketball greatness. They have different priorities in life.

But that is on the player, and not automatically on the coaches, even when you declare otherwise Chief. And for those of you who have not been around since the 80's and 90's, there were others, too... Nantambu Willingham and Jonathan Mandeldove come to mind right off the bat of big men who did not develop under JC. Chief, it just goes to show you that even the best of coaches can have swings and misses. We all tend to forget that these are 18 (and in Steve's case 17) year-old kids... KIDS... we are talking about. A lot of development can and does happen during 4 to 5 years in college.

So, instead of acting like you are "sure" Steve has the potential to be a stud basketball player, and that his lack of development at UConn is totally on Miller and Ollie, let us see how it plays out over the next few years. Because the truth is, unless this young man either matures or lights a fire under his own ass, he will never make it at this level. And that is fact, no matter what BS you want to spew. As far as Ollie is concerned, I would like to see what happens when he gets a big man who is not a total project, as Brimah, Facey and Enoch all have been, before we close the book on whether he and his staff have what it takes to develop big men.


P.S. - One thing you and I do agree upon, btw - Clyde Vaughn was the best big man coach we have ever had (and there has yet to be a close 2nd)... and losing him was definitely one of the worst things to happen to the long term development of big men at UConn in the last 30+ years.
 

polycom

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Ok Chief - I have laid off you myself for some of your misguided (sometimes bordering on ridiculous) claims and stances that you take. You sometimes make good points and do have some amusing stories from being somewhere around the program (although referring to yourself in the 3rd person is just as lame and douchey on here as it was by "Jimmy" in Seinfeld 20 years ago).

But your view on this one is totally out of touch with the reality that we all witnessed over Steve's first two years here, and this last year with Juwan.

Steve first: although I would say that Steve does have a chance to take his natural abilities and turn himself into at least a decent Division 1 player by his senior year, you are absolutely full of crap to sit here and act like:

a) he has the potential to be the next Emeka Okafor (or anywhere close)
b) it was all Glenn Miller and KO's fault that he showed almost no development over his two years here
c) Coach Calhoun would have definitely gotten all of that talent out of him.

I realize for you and some others that it fits your ongoing narrative on both KO and Miller, but the fact is that some (not all, but some) of the blame for his lack of development has to lie with Steve himself. Go back and watch his play. Fact is, he was horrible on defense, and erratic on offense. Additionally, he shot 41% this year... as a big man. And as others have pointed out, he shot even worse (7 for 24) against good competition. An individual's improvement is never solely reliant upon coaching. I played sports when I was younger too... and I know that if I was not getting better that a significant amount of the responsibility was on ME. Same goes here with Steve. He obviously was not working on his game nor working to develop his awareness on the court consistently enough.

Can that change as he matures (after all he is young for a sophomore)? Yes. And I hope for his sake that it does. But as for his two years here... sorry, HIS EFFORT was consistently lacking. That is a fact. So let's say that its 50% on him and 50% on the coaches where Steve is concerned.

As for Durham... throwing him into any discussion on this perceived trend of "lack of improvement" by our big men is disingenuous at least, and ridiculous at most. How could you say he "did not improve"? This year was all about getting Juwan back on the court and keeping him healthy through a full year of basketball! That in and of itself was a huge step forward for him.

He just missed two straight years with serious knee injuries! Everyone here (other than you and a few others) realize that the big victory with Juwan was just KEEPING HIM HEALTHY through the rigors of an entire 4-month schedule. Anything else is a totally false narrative because it was going to take him this whole year just to get comfortable in his own mind that he was not going to blow out one of his knees again. Frankly, the coaching staff did an excellent job bringing him along slowly... particularly when you have to know that KO wanted to play him more when we were so short-handed earlier in the year. KO did what was in the best interest of health and well-being for that young man. KO deserves credit for how he handled Durham this year, not criticism.

I am definitely more disappointed to see Durham go than Enoch.

As for Coach Calhoun - one of the greatest coaches ever... period, end of story. Like practically everyone else on this message board, I will forever be thankful for what he built at UConn, and how he did it. HOWEVER - The other part of your false narrative that JC would have "automatically" gotten the best out of Steve is categorically untrue. I will debunk your "statements of fact" on that one right now:

Have you ever heard of Toraino Walker? That guy peaked for us... in his freshman year. JC was NEVER able to get out of him the full potential he showed during the 1990 Big East Tournament. In fact... Toraino left the program right before the start of his senior year, having never fulfilled that potential for greatness he showed 2 1/2 years earlier. Sometimes, guys like Toraino (really nice, quiet guy, by the way... used to come to our off-campus parties) and yes, STEVE TOO, do not want it badly enough. It is ok, it is part of being human. Not everyone has the drive or passion to turn their physical abilities into basketball greatness. They have different priorities in life.

But that is on the player, and not automatically on the coaches, even when you declare otherwise Chief. And for those of you who have not been around since the 80's and 90's, there were others, too... Nantambu Willingham and Jonathan Mandeldove come to mind right off the bat of big men who did not develop under JC. Chief, it just goes to show you that even the best of coaches can have swings and misses. We all tend to forget that these are 18 (and in Steve's case 17) year-old kids... KIDS... we are talking about. A lot of development can and does happen during 4 to 5 years in college.

So, instead of acting like you are "sure" Steve has the potential to be a stud basketball player, and that his lack of development at UConn is totally on Miller and Ollie, let us see how it plays out over the next few years. Because the truth is, unless this young man either matures or lights a fire under his own ass, he will never make it at this level. And that is fact, no matter what BS you want to spew. As far as Ollie is concerned, I would like to see what happens when he gets a big man who is not a total project, as Brimah, Facey and Enoch all have been, before we close the book on whether he and his staff have what it takes to develop big men.


P.S. - One thing you and I do agree upon, btw - Clyde Vaughn was the best big man coach we have ever had (and there has yet to be a close 2nd)... and losing him was definitely one of the worst things to happen to the long term development of big men at UConn in the last 30+ years.

Getting arrested for patronizing a prostitute will do that, didn't know he was a good coach.
 

pj

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It's worth remembering that big men have a very high college failure rate. Many of them fail to develop. Even the ones that develop often fail to reach the ceiling fans had hoped for. To add to @LStudfellow's names, Souleymane Wane was a valuable piece of one championship, and a guy I kept for rooting for to develop, but didn't quite make it - his best year at UConn was 4.6 pts, 4.8 rbds. He played abroad for some years and is now a high school coach (http://www.eagletribune.com/sports/...cle_26cfaa88-f119-5d53-b8c7-6ba6d8c3611a.html)

Why is this? There are about 1500 D1 basketball guards drawn from a same-age population of 16 million kids of similar height. They've already been winnowed down to the top 0.01% of athletes. The starters at high level programs from the best 0.001% of kids at that height. This kids are great athletes who can do a lot of things. Most have been playing basketball for 10 years against the best athletes in their locality.

Meanwhile, among big men, growth comes late, and there aren't many. 17% of all American 7 footers play in the NBA. So you have a lot of kids that just aren't good athletes, but are big. Or they are missing some piece, be it mental or character, which stops them from being great, even if they have the physical tools.

Recruiting big men is a real challenge in projection. Failure rates are high.

The good side: KO may be rising the steep part of the learning curve in how to recruit and coach big men. They are different from guards. I daresay if you were not a big man yourself (and remember Calhoun played PF at 6'4"), it takes a while to learn how to coach them. I think in the long run we'll be OK.
 
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Getting arrested for patronizing a prostitute will do that, didn't know he was a good coach.

Interesting how patronizing a prostitute ruined Clyde Vaughn's career, but having an affair with a Graduate Assistant who he hired illegally while at Arkansas (and lied about the motorcycle accident that began the unraveling of his deception) only sidetracked Bobby Petrino's career for two years - and now that he is having success at Louisville it is like nothing ever happen. And that situation was only one in a veritable laundry list of self-initiated controversies Petrino has been in the center of over the last 15 to 20 years.

I do not exonerate Clyde for his actions, but neither do I cast a stone at him from my glass house. Don't you think that what he has suffered through since that was excessive compared to what Petrino and others have done... which is commonly understood to be significantly worse?

And as for your other comment as to whether Clyde was a good coach - Clyde is the one who was instrumental in developing: Emeka Okafor; and helping to develop Josh Boone and Hilton Armstrong in their early years.
 

polycom

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Interesting how patronizing a prostitute ruined Clyde Vaughn's career, but having an affair with a Graduate Assistant who he hired illegally while at Arkansas (and lied about the motorcycle accident that began the unraveling of his deception) only sidetracked Bobby Petrino's career for two years - and now that he is having success at Louisville it is like nothing ever happen. And that situation was only one in a veritable laundry list of self-initiated controversies Petrino has been in the center of over the last 15 to 20 years.

I do not exonerate Clyde for his actions, but neither do I cast a stone at him from my glass house. Don't you think that what he has suffered through since that was excessive compared to what Petrino and others have done... which is commonly understood to be significantly worse?

And as for your other comment as to whether Clyde was a good coach - Clyde is the one who was instrumental in developing: Emeka Okafor; and helping to develop Josh Boone and Hilton Armstrong in their early years.

My comment was more shocked as I'd never heard of the name before, and you see that there is nothing in his bio after his 2004 arrest seems a bit extreme especially in the sports world
 
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This is exactly it. You can't bring in projects if your big man coach isn't capable of developing projects into polished big men.

Here's another idea, don't bring in big men with little to no basketball IQ so they can learn to share up and throw a jump hook to the rim on occasion. Not worried at all about "projects" as long as they are projects capable of learning and bringing it to the court. We've been way too short on those traits for a while.
 
C

Chief00

Getting arrested for patronizing a prostitute will do that, didn't know he was a good coach.

Great Bigs coach. He was charged with a misdemeanor 13 years ago - get a life and her over it!
 

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