Candace Parker/Olympic team thread (merged threads)

[HuskyNan]

You know what I find pretty amazing about the USA Women's NT - and it has nothing to do with what players are picked for the team?

I have tried to find the actual box scores for the 2012 Olympic Games and have failed. I can find lots of men's box scores, but none of the women's. Does anyone know of a site that has them?

Here are the cumulative stats. For individual box scores, go to the ESPN site. You can also get the play-by-play there. It's a little time consuming but you do need to click on the date of the game to get the data; dates are below.

July 28 USA vs Croatia
July 30 USA vs Angola
Aug 1 USA vs Turkey
Aug 3 USA vs Czech Republic
Aug 5 USA vs China
Aug 7 USA vs Canada
Aug 9 USA vs Australia
Aug 11 USA vs France

 

[Icebear]

We did see those stats. You drew the a selective conclusion from the stats, specifically that: "CP greatness was overblown".
You ignored and continue to ignore the stats which favor CP. From @Orangutan post that would be Assists and Offensive and defensive rebounds.

No, a comparison of stats was made that showed CP was not the runaway favorite. It was not done by me, it was not cherry picked and it showed there were ample reasons to say it was a toss up depending on the qualities/skills you needed from your choice.

 

[Icebear]

Ha now come on....CP is and never will be a bench player. The only person to ever bench her was Geno. And that was also a huge controversy.

Anne Donovan did it, too.

 

[UcMiami]

I know we should probably just be letting this thread die, and this is unrelated to Parker but deals with the other 'the NT team under Geno has been turned into Uconn's graduate program' complaint.

Since Geno was appointed prior to the 2010 WC competition there have been a number of new additions to the players selected to the NT:
2010
Candice Dupree, Angel McCoughtry, Jane Appel, Lindsay Whalen, Maya Moore, Tina Charles, Asjha Jones
2012
None
2014
Brittany Griner, Nneka Obwumike, Odyssey Sims, Breanna Stewart
2016
EDD

So ... there have been 12 additions of which 4 have been Uconn players - 33% is high but considering that they have represent 75% of college NCs during that eight year period it suggests they come in with some serious talent to the team - in fact combine they have won 10 college NCs.
Specifically:
Tina Charles - WNBA ROY, WNBA POY, College POY
Maya Moore - WNBA ROY, WNBA POY, College POY x3
Breanna Stewart - College POY x3
Asjha Jones - WNBA all-star 2x

The only one of those 'Uconn' players who stands out as a 'Geno' selection is Jones - the others would most likely have been selected by any Olympic coach. The one other 'Uconn' selection was Cash but she had first been selected to the 2004 Olympic squad under Van Chancellor had been dropped through some injury years and then added back in 2010 - she played significant minutes in 2010 with 4 starts and good statistical contributions and played little in 2012. Jones played less in 2010 but with decent stats and had her one 'moment' defensively in 2012's tightest contest. 2012 was the last round-up for both of them.

Just thought this idea of Uconn's stamp being put on the the NT should be examined - the five current Uconn players I think are pretty unassailable and have been since their first inclusion, with one or two now likely in their own last hurrah.

 

[CocoHusky]

UC very convincing analysis and I would fully expect that the UCONN players have a proportionate share of Olympic team slots considering how UCONN has dominated the competition in the last decade +.
Specific to CP, consider that ever American WNBA MVP since 2008 is on the 2016 Olympic Team except....... CP.
Consider that the only player to win the WNBA MVP more than one time in that same time span ('08-'16) is..........CP.
Since 1997 the only player to win WNBA MVP within 4 years of Olympic year and not make Olympic team is ........CP.

 

[CocoHusky]

No, a comparison of stats was made that showed CP was not the runaway favorite. It was not done by me, it was not cherry picked and it showed there were ample reasons to say it was a toss up depending on the qualities/skills you needed from your choice.

I didn't see any analysis from you I saw analysis from @Orangutan.

 

[UcMiami]

Coco - interesting observation but only 100% accurate if you limit to Olympics - Lisa Leslie was was not selected to the 2006 WC team in the year she won her third POY ( maybe it is a bias against LA Spark players! )

A couple of other observation along those lines - she is the only WNBA POY to never have started the majority of any of her NT competitions, and she is the only one to have been unavailable for 50 % of the NT competitions as a professional. Taurasi, Charles, and Moore have been available for 100% and Catchings for 86% - I suppose you could add EDD to the 50% though she had never been on a NT in 2014, and was not yet a POY.

I know this issue is fraught with emotion, and I have no idea about how things have been perceived within the cognoscenti but I do think part of the issue with Parker might be (fairly or unfairly) a sense that she has not tried her hardest to be available for the WC teams. It was an issue on the men's side I believe and the men's committee made it clear that Olympic team consideration was heavily weighted toward those who played in the preceding WC competition. I personally feel more 'sorry' for Candice Dupree who has now been twice unselected for Olympic teams after performing well on WC teams.

 

[msf22b]

Way, way above...I used the carefully chosen word aberrant to describe the decision to omit CP.
And that as the reason that an explanation is still required by someone in officialdom, no matter how painful.

There is compelling statistical evidence supporting or denying the decision.
There is CP's somewhat mixed performance on the team and her (relatively) modest International stats and the fact that if she was so great, how come she didn't start more often prior (under different coaches).

There are her Outstanding player awards that Coco mentioned which speak volumes.

And there is the assumption that leaving her off the team was a surprise even to higher-ups in the Olympic establishment who had recently used her to promote the very team from which she was now banished (excuse the poetic language...it's not about that).

This is an open wound...our Amfortas moment...with no Parsifal around to provide healing.
LaChina Robinson alluded to some deep unhappiness (about something) but then disappeared on vacation and was silent.
For the rest...the lack of a pin drop has been astonishing...hardly a peep

Feels like the China, my friend the Beijing based economist Chris Balding wrote about today...people afraid (reluctant) to open their mouths. Fearful of their careers.

Something is very, very wrong or disquieting at least.

 

[UcMiami]

msf22b - I like what you wrote, but ... I disagree about two points:
1. An answer is not really necessary - there is controversy and it would like be huge if the USA team doesn't win gold (which is never a guaranteed result) but it will dissipate if they do, and as I have said before whatever answer is given it will still not 'satisfy' a large percentage of those who are 'outraged' and it might be more unpleasant for a lot of people including parker herself and her supporters.

2. There are two possible reasons for the 'deafening' silence - as you state fear of negative consequences to careers, or understanding and acquiescence to the decision. The fact that Mechelle has been the only real torchbearer in the media and that so few players, coaches, and other basketball insiders have said anything suggests to me the latter. ESPN certainly doesn't shy away from promoting controversy and Kara Lawson for example is pretty blunt in her statements, well established, and could be said to have a 'horse in the race' with her strong love of TN, but I believe has been silent. And there are enough others out there - players and coaches who have little to fear with 'offending' USA basketball that I think we could have expected to hear more. Lin Dunn who I suspect at this point in her career doesn't care a @#%#@ for who she offends is an example of someone who rather than speak out, chastised others for going off half-cocked. Even if they were unwilling to be quoted for attribution, I would think a 'in talking to a number of WNBA GM's the general feeling is one of incredulity' kind of column for Mechelle or someone else would have appeared.

 

[msf22b]

2. There are two possible reasons for the 'deafening' silence - as you state fear of negative consequences to careers, or understanding and acquiescence to the decision. The fact that Mechelle has been the only real torchbearer in the media and that so few players, coaches, and other basketball insiders have said anything suggests to me the latter. ESPN certainly doesn't shy away from promoting controversy and Kara Lawson for example is pretty blunt in her statements, well established, and could be said to have a 'horse in the race' with her strong love of TN, but I believe has been silent. And there are enough others out there - players and coaches who have little to fear with 'offending' USA basketball that I think we could have expected to hear more. Lin Dunn who I suspect at this point in her career doesn't care a @#%#@ for who she offends is an example of someone who rather than speak out, chastised others for going off half-cocked. Even if they were unwilling to be quoted for attribution, I would think a 'in talking to a number of WNBA GM's the general feeling is one of incredulity' kind of column for Mechelle or someone else would have appeared.

I certainly don't want to start a conspiracy theory argument but...taking your thoughts a bit further in searching for an explanation to the muted reaction:

1. More than acquiescence...agreement: Perhaps the largest segment of the community concurs that the superstar woman in question is somehow deserving of the public humiliation that has transpired.

2. Without coaching...spoken of only on the inside...but conversations certainly occurring...of a fear from within that the W is in very precarious shape, that their livelihoods are hanging by a strand, and that most have concluded that a huge scandal, labor unrest, whatever would be counterproductive to their individual self-interest.

Better to clam up and let this one just fade away.

I have no evidence for the above views...just conjecture, like others, searching for clarity.

 

[Justavisitor]

Actually, objectively, it wasn't controversial at all. The starting lineup with both Catchings and Parker produced terrible offensive spacing and it showed. Geno chose to keep Catchings in the starting lineup and replaced Parker with Moore who spaced the floor better.

Parker has played for Team USA in 3 major international competitions -- 2008 and 2012 Olympics and the 2006 World Championships -- and the only 3 games she ever started were when Geno had her in the starting lineup for the first 3 games of the 2012 Olympics.

Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.

 

[Justavisitor]

Anne Donovan did it, too.

Anne Donovan brought both Candace and Fowles off the bench, although both were more productive than their more experienced peers. Anne knew it was the last rodeo for LLL and DMJ. She wanted to send them out in style and not have them come off the bench for the first timers. Geno did not do the same with Maya, which was odd in the fact that typically the first timers come off the bench, regardless of talent.

 

[EricLA]

Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.

Ah... more conspiracy theories. So Maya's insertion into the starting lineup over Parker can now be blamed on Maya's mom? Can you please provide the quotes from anyone associated with the US National team that indicates this was the case? If not, then why even go there?

 

[CocoHusky]

Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.

Must we go here "Maya's Mother" really? Pookie and Ray Ray and Them got to the gym at the same time as Maya's mother! Is anybody looking in them?

 

[CocoHusky]

Must we go here "Maya's Mother" really? Pookie and Ray Ray and Them got to the gym at the same time as Maya's mother! Is anybody looking in them?

Wait Ray Ray called said he wasn't there but he can't prove it and it was definitely Mookie and his people!

 

[UcMiami]

Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.

Parker was removed from the starting line-up after her worst game of the Olympics - against Turkey where she was 1-7 for 2 points, with four defensive rebounds in what was a relatively competitive game. The previously game she had indeed scored and rebounded well in a game against a hopelessly outclassed Angola (90-38.)

 

[CocoHusky]

Parker was removed from the starting line-up after her worst game of the Olympics - against Turkey where she was 1-7 for 2 points, with four defensive rebounds in what was a relatively competitive game. The previously game she had indeed scored and rebounded well in a game against a hopelessly outclassed Angola (90-38.)

And on and on...
DT was not much better than CP in the game against Turkey going 2-6.
Two days later Sue Bird went 0-3 against Czech and was scoreless for the game in 23 minutes played.
These analysis of the box scores can go on forever. Regardless of how many games CP started in the 2012 Olympics or why she was removed from the starting lineup she managed to be one of the most productive members of the US team in the 2012 Olympics leading the team in rebounding and blocked shots. She validated her performance in the 2012 Olympic by following up with a WNBA MVP in the 2013 season. It is entirely plausible, that since 2013 other players have emerged whose BB skill set today is better than CP's-I am specifically thinking of EDD and Stewie. It appears that CP was left off this team for unquantifiable & non-basketball related reasons. Unquantifiable non-basketball reasons for leaving someone off the team is a very slippery absurd slope because tattoo, sexual orientation, shoe company affiliations could be next. Oops, I realize that shoe company affiliation thing might be a little controversial but hopefully you see where I'm going with this.

 

[UcMiami]

And on and on...
DT was not much better than CP in the game against Turkey going 2-6.
Two days later Sue Bird went 0-3 against Czech and was scoreless for the game in 23 minutes played.
These analysis of the box scores can go on forever. Regardless of how many games CP started in the 2012 Olympics or why she was removed from the starting lineup she managed to be one of the most productive members of the US team in the 2012 Olympics leading the team in rebounding and blocked shots. She validated her performance in the 2012 Olympic by following up with a WNBA MVP in the 2013 season. It is entirely plausible, that since 2013 other players have emerged whose BB skill set today is better than CP's-I am specifically thinking of EDD and Stewie. It appears that CP was left off this team for unquantifiable & non-basketball related reasons. Unquantifiable non-basketball reasons for leaving someone off the team is a very slippery absurd slope because tattoo, sexual orientation, shoe company affiliations could be next. Oops, I realize that shoe company affiliation thing might be a little controversial but hopefully you see where I'm going with this.

I agree - the first four games of the tournament were a series of adjustments as the coaches tried to figure out what was working and what wasn't - not unusual for the NT in any tournament - I was just responding to the 'funny it happened after one of her best games' comment which wasn't true - it happened after she had a so so first game and very good second game and her worst game of the tournament in the third game - that was the sequence. And the team was doing ok but not as well as the coaches thought it could. As for DT - and this gets to the only statement the committee has made - the strength of the team and the pool is the 4/3 position - for who started and who came off the bench at 4/3 there were several options, for DT in the two guard spot, there were no other good options.

 

[Tonyc]

Wow this thread keeps going and going and going. Hey there is a problem that hasn't gone public. That is very obvious. I would guess the problem has something to do with CP the committee and maybe the coaches and teammates. To not have her on the team and no body involved with the team backing her up tells me there is a problem. Now if the committee said no to CP then Geno said yes or her teammates said yes we want her on the team I think the committee would acknowledge that. Since no one involved with the team has come out and said we want CP on the team, there has to be something that happened and it cant be good. JMO

 

[meyers7]

Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.

 

[CocoHusky]

Wow this thread keeps going and going and going. Hey there is a problem that hasn't gone public. That is very obvious. I would guess the problem has something to do with CP the committee and maybe the coaches and teammates. To not have her on the team and no body involved with the team backing her up tells me there is a problem. Now if the committee said no to CP then Geno said yes or her teammates said yes we want her on the team I think the committee would acknowledge that. Since no one involved with the team has come out and said we want CP on the team, there has to be something that happened and it cant be good. JMO

I agree mostly except the part about the current team players speaking up now . If a current player speaks up now they would be essentially risking their own position on this team not to mention future suction with the selection committee.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.

Perhaps it had to do with Maya's mother throwing her purse on the court... A joke folks over the great purse conspiracy theory the Volamites have never let go of.

 

[Justavisitor]

Wow this thread keeps going and going and going. Hey there is a problem that hasn't gone public. That is very obvious. I would guess the problem has something to do with CP the committee and maybe the coaches and teammates. To not have her on the team and no body involved with the team backing her up tells me there is a problem. Now if the committee said no to CP then Geno said yes or her teammates said yes we want her on the team I think the committee would acknowledge that. Since no one involved with the team has come out and said we want CP on the team, there has to be something that happened and it cant be good. JMO

And this is exactly why no good comes from the hush-hush of this decsion. It leads to unfair speculation regardless of what side you're on. As for teammates, there have been teammates throughout the WNBA that are supporting CP and are also questioning the decision. Considering Candace, DT, and Sue Bird all made a conscience decision to be teammates over seas, I just do not see this as a teammate issue. The answer lies else where with someone else.

 

[Blueballer]

And this is exactly why no good comes from the hush-hush of this decsion. It leads to unfair speculation regardless of what side you're on. As for teammates, there have been teammates throughout the WNBA that are supporting CP and are also questioning the decision. Considering Candace, DT, and Sue Bird all made a conscience decision to be teammates over seas, I just do not see this as a teammate issue. The answer lies else where with someone else.

Ummm OK, but dragging Maya's Mother into another conspiracy theory is just crazy.

 

[Justavisitor]

Ummm OK, but dragging Maya's Mother into another conspiracy theory is just crazy.

Agree and as intended, it riled you all up.