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Candace Parker/Olympic team thread (merged threads)

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CocoHusky

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Not sure if this updated Mechelle Voepele article has been posted here yet but it sums up the passion over this issue from many point of views. I not sure what her source was but I found this part most interesting :

"In what is a further insult, USA Basketball seemed to hope she (Parker) would then opt to say this was all her choice. That she needed more rest or wanted to stay home to attend one of her daughter's recitals or that she didn't care for samba music or whatever could have kept USA Basketball from being asked why she's not on the team."

Still trying to make sense of a Rio roster without Parker


This thing is not going to go away.
 
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As I said before, CP's value to USAB was as a bench player. This time around, CP the bench player was replaced by another bench player, EDD. What ever CP statistics exist that are not USAB related are irrelevant. What has she done for USAB? Started three games in her USAB career. JMO.
 

UcMiami

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I have clearly said over-and-over in different terminolgy that Parker is above Angel and Fowles. Why are you bringing in Maya and Tina? I'm with all who say Maya and Tina should be in. And I'm okay with Catchings. And I have said I understand why cathcings is in- but Parker is better. I have argued against those who have claimed that Parker doesn't bring something above others. By that I meant a specific skill. I have showed that her assists to turnovers is superior vs. any of the would-be power forwards. The superior numbers speak for themselves.

As I stated to icebear- Parker's assists to turnovers over the past three years since the last Olympics (I think a comparison of after Olympics to now is more relevant than a 5year comparision.) superior to Maya's and vastly superior Cacthings or EDD. This doesn't mean I say that Parker is a superior player to Maya or EDD. It's a counter to those who say Parker doesn't have something the she excels at vs other player's at her position. She does! At pf - she is a combination of supreme passer and supreme finisher vs anyone in the game. It doesn't mean I think she is best player in all of basketball. It's just that's she brings something others don't and for example it trumps what Nneke brings or imo what Angel brings or Fowles brings. As long as you or anyone thinks she brings something special other than Angel, Fowles or Catchings - then I don't understand why anyone that agrees with just one-- thinks Parker shouldn't be on the team.
Whoopdeedoo for assists.
Angel McCoughtry - is a far better three point shooter and better perimeter defender than Candace. And head to head in the 2012 NT, Angel scored more points, had more assists, had 20 steals to Candaces 4 and had 6 blocks to Candaces 10. Oh yeah and she shot .620 to Candace's .507 so she was more efficient. Candace out rebounded McCoughtry as you would expect from a 4/3 vs a 2/3. And yes Angel has been available for the last three NTs to Candace's one - so her stats in the other two teams are better as well.

Fowles - is one of the two best centers in the WNBA and a two time DPOY.

If the committee had not selected Fowles, her replacement would have been another center, if the committee had not selected Angel her replacement would have been a guard/wing player - maybe you would select a team for international play with only one true center, or with only three guards but then thankfully you are not a member of the committee - the committee that has years of experience selecting gold medal teams for international competition. They like having insurance in the low post, and strong guard play so when they were looking at Candace they were not looking at selecting her vs either of those players. You don't like Angel than find a tall guard wing with strong defensive chops (Angel has been WNBA All defensive first team 5 of the last six years.) You don't like Fowles than find another strong defensive center to replace her.
 

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What Rio means to me video. Candace is the only one from basketball. They completely used her.



Bird, Catch, EDD, and Parker were all used for all kinds of promos recently and they shouldn't have used them if they weren't locks.
 

UcMiami

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Not sure if this updated Mechelle Voepele article has been posted here yet but it sums up the passion over this issue from many point of views. I not sure what her source was but I found this part most interesting :

"In what is a further insult, USA Basketball seemed to hope she (Parker) would then opt to say this was all her choice. That she needed more rest or wanted to stay home to attend one of her daughter's recitals or that she didn't care for samba music or whatever could have kept USA Basketball from being asked why she's not on the team."

Still trying to make sense of a Rio roster without Parker


This thing is not going to go away.
With no sourcing for that quote, I am going for 'she pulled it out of thin air'. Candace hasn't said it, and she would be the only one that could report what the Olympic committee did or did not say to her. Seeing as Candace played the end of last WNBA season and a full international season and one presumes will play the first half of this WNBA season I don't see how anyone would have believed that would be a plausible statement. While people may disagree with the committee's actions, I don't think anyone is saying they are stupid.
 

CocoHusky

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With no sourcing for that quote, I am going for 'she pulled it out of thin air'. Candace hasn't said it, and she would be the only one that could report what the Olympic committee did or did not say to her. Seeing as Candace played the end of last WNBA season and a full international season and one presumes will play the first half of this WNBA season I don't see how anyone would have believed that would be a plausible statement. While people may disagree with the committee's actions, I don't think anyone is saying they are stupid.
Why would she pull this out of thin air when the rest of the article is very balanced and considers all perspectives?
 

UcMiami

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What Rio means to me video. Candace is the only one from basketball. They completely used her.



Bird, Catch, EDD, and Parker were all used for all kinds of promos recently and they shouldn't have used them if they weren't locks.

Check the actual description for this video:
U.S. Olympic hopefuls try to put into words what making the team and competing in Rio means to them
Video produced by NBC - not sure if they asked USA basketball who was on the team, but I suspect they did not. It was posted 5 days ago by NBC but suspect it was in production at least a month ago.
 
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As I said before, CP's value to USAB was as a bench player. This time around, CP the bench player was replaced by another bench player, EDD. What ever CP statistics exist that are not USAB related are irrelevant. What has she done for USAB? Started three games in her USAB career. JMO.

So what? There is only one bench player? You mean Team USA won't be able to play their bench much because they'll be is so many tight games? No and No.
 

Jmpenn

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Thanks! I didn't see the description so I wasn't aware that it was for Olympic hopefuls. Still think it was sad that she was the one asked to do it and do so many interviews and promos.

Check the actual description for this video:
U.S. Olympic hopefuls try to put into words what making the team and competing in Rio means to them
Video produced by NBC - not sure if they asked USA basketball who was on the team, but I suspect they did not. It was posted 5 days ago by NBC but suspect it was in production at least a month ago.
 

Icebear

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The bold parts kind of sums it up very accurately.
This part: "Her greatness far above others is clearly over blown given her low starts in the past and other stats." can't be true right if "We simply don't know"!
Not true, the statistics tell us her greatness above the others simply isn't true. We saw those stats. The "simply don't know" applied directly to the sentence in front of it and to what the committee thought.
 

CocoHusky

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As I said before, CP's value to USAB was as a bench player. This time around, CP the bench player was replaced by another bench player, EDD. What ever CP statistics exist that are not USAB related are irrelevant. What has she done for USAB? Started three games in her USAB career. JMO.

If the top qualities sought were talent, experience and versatility, the three automatic picks to build the rest of the U.S. team around should have been Taurasi, Maya Moore and Parker.
----Mechelle Voepele

Still trying to make sense of a Rio roster without Parker





 

CocoHusky

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Not true, the statistics tell us her greatness above the others simply isn't true. We saw those stats. The "simply don't know" applied directly to the sentence in front of it and to what the committee thought.
We did see those stats. You drew the a selective conclusion from the stats, specifically that: "CP greatness was overblown".
You ignored and continue to ignore the stats which favor CP. From @Orangutan post that would be Assists and Offensive and defensive rebounds.
 
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Whoopdeedoo for assists.
Angel McCoughtry - is a far better three point shooter and better perimeter defender than Candace. And head to head in the 2012 NT, Angel scored more points, had more assists, had 20 steals to Candaces 4 and had 6 blocks to Candaces 10. Oh yeah and she shot .620 to Candace's .507 so she was more efficient. Candace out rebounded McCoughtry as you would expect from a 4/3 vs a 2/3. And yes Angel has been available for the last three NTs to Candace's one - so her stats in the other two teams are better as well.

Fowles - is one of the two best centers in the WNBA and a two time DPOY.

If the committee had not selected Fowles, her replacement would have been another center, if the committee had not selected Angel her replacement would have been a guard/wing player - maybe you would select a team for international play with only one true center, or with only three guards but then thankfully you are not a member of the committee - the committee that has years of experience selecting gold medal teams for international competition. They like having insurance in the low post, and strong guard play so when they were looking at Candace they were not looking at selecting her vs either of those players. You don't like Angel than find a tall guard wing with strong defensive chops (Angel has been WNBA All defensive first team 5 of the last six years.) You don't like Fowles than find another strong defensive center to replace her.


I don't agree "whopeeddoo" for assiess vs trunovers. Passing the ball is a basic fundamental and should alwys be considered a high priority. How often do we hear with UCONN that they speak of how many baskets they get off of assits. Hwo often have we praised MoJeff for her splendid assits vs turnovers? hooppeedddoo" ever reagridng Stef's ability to pass?

And as far as Angel - other players can fill Angel's role. If she were to be a sg, Maya, Catchings and Augustus can defend the sg while you can have EDD at the sf or pf while having Parker. If she were at sf instead you can have Augustus, Maya, or Catchings can defend the sf instead. . And if the other team's sf isn't much of scorer either Parker or EDD can defend that - however I think many underrate Parker's defense so I think Parker is a sf defender too. The point is, with Angel it isn't 1 for 1 with Parker. It's that you can slot in many palyers to do what Angel can do. In the past Angel was an impact defender but she has slowed. Look at her WNBA numbers in Defensive Win Shares as up as his her Defensive Rating. They are all up - and in this case "up is not good." And Angel doesn't even pass the ball as well Parker.

As far as Tina vs Flowers- Tina is the better center. Tina Charles is the 2nd best center in the WNBA. In 2011-2012 as MVP she was the center - as far as back then she passed Fowles. She is no longer he center so she doesn't get beat up.

As far as what the committee would have done -- is unknown. Many of us already believe they are wrong to not include Parker unless they gave a reason. Brian Agler - a great coach kind of says what I think - this Team USA is going to win anyways.
So why is it relevant whom they might have chosen? We don't know what they would have done. Griner and Tina can handle the post. They've both improved since 2012. Who were the 3 centers in 2014? Was Nneka the other center? Because in WNBA she doesn't paly the post over Parker.

And as far as not liking Angel as mentioned above it has nothing to do with Angle bs Parker. Other players on this team can pick up for the "declining" Angel. Even her PER rating and Win Shares per 48 - thy are all down. Overall, the stats show she is declining. She doesn't look as great as she once was.

Anyhow we have rehashed this a lot over-and-over my friend. I'm begging off the subject for the time being. More giddeee about AStevens coming. Great great greta pickup. :)

Coco- I'm sorry - I feel you and I have been on the same page with this subject. You're on your own now my friend. I know the comment you are about to say "I was on my own anyways!!" :)
 

CocoHusky

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Coco- I'm sorry - I feel you and I have been on the same page with this subject. You're on your own now my friend. I know the comment you are about to say "I was on my own anyways!!" :)
I would never say that. I very much appreciate that we were of like mind on this issue. I also appreciate that many of the people who were not of like mind with me on this issue have been with me on other issues of much greater significance.
 

Icebear

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Who said anything about Parker over EDD?

And who said - one person-- that said Catchings is a better player than Parker? If they diid- I agree with those that isde wiht Parker. But I c recal hearing a reason why Catchings over Parker except that she has been here longer or maybe didn't cause trouble etc. But basketball reasons (maybe a basketball reason is that she doesn't cause trouble) - what do you think Catchings does well that trumps what Parker does well? For me- I have no problem with Cathcings. I have said I think Angel or Fowles were the two to get cut over Parker. Not the two you mentioned.

But Parker is runaway in terms of assists vs turnovers. Parker's assists to turnovers is 1.825. since the last Olympics. Neither EDD nor Catchings are close to that since last Olympics. You can't go counting Parker's career data since she was a rookie. Otherwise are you going to count when Parker 1t joined WNBA that her teams were tops defensively in wnba? No. Because she is different than back then.
It was in the long locked thread.
 

UcMiami

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Thanks! I didn't see the description so I wasn't aware that it was for Olympic hopefuls. Still think it was sad that she was the one asked to do it and do so many interviews and promos.
I really agree, but I am not sure how much USA BB was in control of the various events vs. the TV networks and others. It is really hard to look at any of that stuff now.
(And I am sure that NBC is busy scrubbing a lot of their upcoming publicity pieces.)
 

UcMiami

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In 2014 the starting line-up and bench player replacement for USA was
Griner/Charles
Charles/Dupree
Moore/Augustus
Bird/Whalen
Taurasi/McCoughtry

And in 2012 it was:
Charles/Fowles
Catchings/Parker
Moore/Augustus
Bird/Whalen
Taurasi/McCoughtry

With everyone healthy in 2016 it is likely
Griner/Fowles
Charles/Catchings
Moore/Augustus
Bird/Whalen
Taurasi/McCoughtry

And the injury (or excessive fouls) depth chart is
Griner/Fowles/Charles
Charles/Griner/Catchings/Moore/Stewart/EDD
Moore/Augustus/Catchings/McCoughtry/EDD/Stewart
Bird/Whalen/Taurasi
Taurasi/McCoughtry/Whalen

The lightest area for this team is at the two guard positions (five players covering two positions) and it is also has the oldest average age. That fact is somewhat mitigated by Moore in a real emergency being able to fill in a little as a guard and by Catchings, Moore, and Augustus being able to fill in somewhat defensively against guards on the perimeter. Every other position is three deep with experienced players and the wing and forward positions are further strengthened by the two younger players. There are a lot of variations on line-ups that can be run to defend or attack specific opponents by going really big or relatively small, and the overall defensive strength of this lineup is really strong - which sort of sounds like a certain coach's philosophy - 'games are won by playing great defense, the margin of victory is determined by how well you play on offense.' :)
 
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I care very much about what you think. I care enough to try and understand why you think any of this has to do with Geno or TN. How else could I possibly strongly disagree with you?
You are scaring me....
 
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I have read the posts and pro & con and everyone can go on spouting statistics to support either side forever!
It was brought up that Sparks coach, Brian Aglar, a really good guy and a great coach, has said he doesn't understand the Committee's not adding Candace Parker to the Olympic roster. He had to make that statement to keep peace on his team, not saying he felt anti-Parker, just that he HAS TO say something in her favor in this situation! She's his star player!
I think that the Committee quite simply, knowing it would take major heat for leaving CP off the team, felt the same as I do and just didn't want to deal with her and her massive ego, on a day-to-day basis, and just didn't put her on the team, solving that problem!
I had a Principal at the HS I coached Wrestling at that made the statement, "I can do absolutely anything I want as long as I'm willing to take the heat for 2 weeks, the public outcry will die down after 2 weeks and I'll get exactly what I was after!" He and I fought for over 20 years as he hated Wrestling and me!
The Committee is "taking the heat" and in the end CP will not play for the USA in the next Olympics! They got the result they wanted!
It's as simple as that.
 
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As I said before, CP's value to USAB was as a bench player. This time around, CP the bench player was replaced by another bench player, EDD. What ever CP statistics exist that are not USAB related are irrelevant. What has she done for USAB? Started three games in her USAB career. JMO.
Ha now come on....CP is and never will be a bench player. The only person to ever bench her was Geno. And that was also a huge controversy.
 

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Ha now come on....CP is and never will be a bench player. The only person to ever bench her was Geno. And that was also a huge controversy.

Actually, objectively, it wasn't controversial at all. The starting lineup with both Catchings and Parker produced terrible offensive spacing and it showed. Geno chose to keep Catchings in the starting lineup and replaced Parker with Moore who spaced the floor better.

Parker has played for Team USA in 3 major international competitions -- 2008 and 2012 Olympics and the 2006 World Championships -- and the only 3 games she ever started were when Geno had her in the starting lineup for the first 3 games of the 2012 Olympics.
 

UcMiami

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You know what I find pretty amazing about the USA Women's NT - and it has nothing to do with what players are picked for the team?

I have tried to find the actual box scores for the 2012 Olympic Games and have failed. I can find lots of men's box scores, but none of the women's. Does anyone know of a site that has them?
 

msf22b

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To Nan:

And I thought that little merger and acquisition at the weekend would push this story off the front pages.
 
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