Candace Parker/Olympic team thread (merged threads) | Page 8 | The Boneyard

Candace Parker/Olympic team thread (merged threads)

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As I said before, CP's value to USAB was as a bench player. This time around, CP the bench player was replaced by another bench player, EDD. What ever CP statistics exist that are not USAB related are irrelevant. What has she done for USAB? Started three games in her USAB career. JMO.

If the top qualities sought were talent, experience and versatility, the three automatic picks to build the rest of the U.S. team around should have been Taurasi, Maya Moore and Parker.
----Mechelle Voepele

Still trying to make sense of a Rio roster without Parker





 
Not true, the statistics tell us her greatness above the others simply isn't true. We saw those stats. The "simply don't know" applied directly to the sentence in front of it and to what the committee thought.
We did see those stats. You drew the a selective conclusion from the stats, specifically that: "CP greatness was overblown".
You ignored and continue to ignore the stats which favor CP. From @Orangutan post that would be Assists and Offensive and defensive rebounds.
 
Whoopdeedoo for assists.
Angel McCoughtry - is a far better three point shooter and better perimeter defender than Candace. And head to head in the 2012 NT, Angel scored more points, had more assists, had 20 steals to Candaces 4 and had 6 blocks to Candaces 10. Oh yeah and she shot .620 to Candace's .507 so she was more efficient. Candace out rebounded McCoughtry as you would expect from a 4/3 vs a 2/3. And yes Angel has been available for the last three NTs to Candace's one - so her stats in the other two teams are better as well.

Fowles - is one of the two best centers in the WNBA and a two time DPOY.

If the committee had not selected Fowles, her replacement would have been another center, if the committee had not selected Angel her replacement would have been a guard/wing player - maybe you would select a team for international play with only one true center, or with only three guards but then thankfully you are not a member of the committee - the committee that has years of experience selecting gold medal teams for international competition. They like having insurance in the low post, and strong guard play so when they were looking at Candace they were not looking at selecting her vs either of those players. You don't like Angel than find a tall guard wing with strong defensive chops (Angel has been WNBA All defensive first team 5 of the last six years.) You don't like Fowles than find another strong defensive center to replace her.


I don't agree "whopeeddoo" for assiess vs trunovers. Passing the ball is a basic fundamental and should alwys be considered a high priority. How often do we hear with UCONN that they speak of how many baskets they get off of assits. Hwo often have we praised MoJeff for her splendid assits vs turnovers? hooppeedddoo" ever reagridng Stef's ability to pass?

And as far as Angel - other players can fill Angel's role. If she were to be a sg, Maya, Catchings and Augustus can defend the sg while you can have EDD at the sf or pf while having Parker. If she were at sf instead you can have Augustus, Maya, or Catchings can defend the sf instead. . And if the other team's sf isn't much of scorer either Parker or EDD can defend that - however I think many underrate Parker's defense so I think Parker is a sf defender too. The point is, with Angel it isn't 1 for 1 with Parker. It's that you can slot in many palyers to do what Angel can do. In the past Angel was an impact defender but she has slowed. Look at her WNBA numbers in Defensive Win Shares as up as his her Defensive Rating. They are all up - and in this case "up is not good." And Angel doesn't even pass the ball as well Parker.

As far as Tina vs Flowers- Tina is the better center. Tina Charles is the 2nd best center in the WNBA. In 2011-2012 as MVP she was the center - as far as back then she passed Fowles. She is no longer he center so she doesn't get beat up.

As far as what the committee would have done -- is unknown. Many of us already believe they are wrong to not include Parker unless they gave a reason. Brian Agler - a great coach kind of says what I think - this Team USA is going to win anyways.
So why is it relevant whom they might have chosen? We don't know what they would have done. Griner and Tina can handle the post. They've both improved since 2012. Who were the 3 centers in 2014? Was Nneka the other center? Because in WNBA she doesn't paly the post over Parker.

And as far as not liking Angel as mentioned above it has nothing to do with Angle bs Parker. Other players on this team can pick up for the "declining" Angel. Even her PER rating and Win Shares per 48 - thy are all down. Overall, the stats show she is declining. She doesn't look as great as she once was.

Anyhow we have rehashed this a lot over-and-over my friend. I'm begging off the subject for the time being. More giddeee about AStevens coming. Great great greta pickup. :)

Coco- I'm sorry - I feel you and I have been on the same page with this subject. You're on your own now my friend. I know the comment you are about to say "I was on my own anyways!!" :)
 
Coco- I'm sorry - I feel you and I have been on the same page with this subject. You're on your own now my friend. I know the comment you are about to say "I was on my own anyways!!" :)
I would never say that. I very much appreciate that we were of like mind on this issue. I also appreciate that many of the people who were not of like mind with me on this issue have been with me on other issues of much greater significance.
 
Who said anything about Parker over EDD?

And who said - one person-- that said Catchings is a better player than Parker? If they diid- I agree with those that isde wiht Parker. But I c recal hearing a reason why Catchings over Parker except that she has been here longer or maybe didn't cause trouble etc. But basketball reasons (maybe a basketball reason is that she doesn't cause trouble) - what do you think Catchings does well that trumps what Parker does well? For me- I have no problem with Cathcings. I have said I think Angel or Fowles were the two to get cut over Parker. Not the two you mentioned.

But Parker is runaway in terms of assists vs turnovers. Parker's assists to turnovers is 1.825. since the last Olympics. Neither EDD nor Catchings are close to that since last Olympics. You can't go counting Parker's career data since she was a rookie. Otherwise are you going to count when Parker 1t joined WNBA that her teams were tops defensively in wnba? No. Because she is different than back then.
It was in the long locked thread.
 
Thanks! I didn't see the description so I wasn't aware that it was for Olympic hopefuls. Still think it was sad that she was the one asked to do it and do so many interviews and promos.
I really agree, but I am not sure how much USA BB was in control of the various events vs. the TV networks and others. It is really hard to look at any of that stuff now.
(And I am sure that NBC is busy scrubbing a lot of their upcoming publicity pieces.)
 
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In 2014 the starting line-up and bench player replacement for USA was
Griner/Charles
Charles/Dupree
Moore/Augustus
Bird/Whalen
Taurasi/McCoughtry

And in 2012 it was:
Charles/Fowles
Catchings/Parker
Moore/Augustus
Bird/Whalen
Taurasi/McCoughtry

With everyone healthy in 2016 it is likely
Griner/Fowles
Charles/Catchings
Moore/Augustus
Bird/Whalen
Taurasi/McCoughtry

And the injury (or excessive fouls) depth chart is
Griner/Fowles/Charles
Charles/Griner/Catchings/Moore/Stewart/EDD
Moore/Augustus/Catchings/McCoughtry/EDD/Stewart
Bird/Whalen/Taurasi
Taurasi/McCoughtry/Whalen

The lightest area for this team is at the two guard positions (five players covering two positions) and it is also has the oldest average age. That fact is somewhat mitigated by Moore in a real emergency being able to fill in a little as a guard and by Catchings, Moore, and Augustus being able to fill in somewhat defensively against guards on the perimeter. Every other position is three deep with experienced players and the wing and forward positions are further strengthened by the two younger players. There are a lot of variations on line-ups that can be run to defend or attack specific opponents by going really big or relatively small, and the overall defensive strength of this lineup is really strong - which sort of sounds like a certain coach's philosophy - 'games are won by playing great defense, the margin of victory is determined by how well you play on offense.' :)
 
I care very much about what you think. I care enough to try and understand why you think any of this has to do with Geno or TN. How else could I possibly strongly disagree with you?
You are scaring me....
 
I have read the posts and pro & con and everyone can go on spouting statistics to support either side forever!
It was brought up that Sparks coach, Brian Aglar, a really good guy and a great coach, has said he doesn't understand the Committee's not adding Candace Parker to the Olympic roster. He had to make that statement to keep peace on his team, not saying he felt anti-Parker, just that he HAS TO say something in her favor in this situation! She's his star player!
I think that the Committee quite simply, knowing it would take major heat for leaving CP off the team, felt the same as I do and just didn't want to deal with her and her massive ego, on a day-to-day basis, and just didn't put her on the team, solving that problem!
I had a Principal at the HS I coached Wrestling at that made the statement, "I can do absolutely anything I want as long as I'm willing to take the heat for 2 weeks, the public outcry will die down after 2 weeks and I'll get exactly what I was after!" He and I fought for over 20 years as he hated Wrestling and me!
The Committee is "taking the heat" and in the end CP will not play for the USA in the next Olympics! They got the result they wanted!
It's as simple as that.
 
As I said before, CP's value to USAB was as a bench player. This time around, CP the bench player was replaced by another bench player, EDD. What ever CP statistics exist that are not USAB related are irrelevant. What has she done for USAB? Started three games in her USAB career. JMO.
Ha now come on....CP is and never will be a bench player. The only person to ever bench her was Geno. And that was also a huge controversy.
 
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Ha now come on....CP is and never will be a bench player. The only person to ever bench her was Geno. And that was also a huge controversy.

Actually, objectively, it wasn't controversial at all. The starting lineup with both Catchings and Parker produced terrible offensive spacing and it showed. Geno chose to keep Catchings in the starting lineup and replaced Parker with Moore who spaced the floor better.

Parker has played for Team USA in 3 major international competitions -- 2008 and 2012 Olympics and the 2006 World Championships -- and the only 3 games she ever started were when Geno had her in the starting lineup for the first 3 games of the 2012 Olympics.
 
You know what I find pretty amazing about the USA Women's NT - and it has nothing to do with what players are picked for the team?

I have tried to find the actual box scores for the 2012 Olympic Games and have failed. I can find lots of men's box scores, but none of the women's. Does anyone know of a site that has them?
 
You know what I find pretty amazing about the USA Women's NT - and it has nothing to do with what players are picked for the team?

I have tried to find the actual box scores for the 2012 Olympic Games and have failed. I can find lots of men's box scores, but none of the women's. Does anyone know of a site that has them?
Here are the cumulative stats. For individual box scores, go to the ESPN site. You can also get the play-by-play there. It's a little time consuming but you do need to click on the date of the game to get the data; dates are below.

July 28 USA vs Croatia
July 30 USA vs Angola
Aug 1 USA vs Turkey
Aug 3 USA vs Czech Republic
Aug 5 USA vs China
Aug 7 USA vs Canada
Aug 9 USA vs Australia
Aug 11 USA vs France
 
We did see those stats. You drew the a selective conclusion from the stats, specifically that: "CP greatness was overblown".
You ignored and continue to ignore the stats which favor CP. From @Orangutan post that would be Assists and Offensive and defensive rebounds.
No, a comparison of stats was made that showed CP was not the runaway favorite. It was not done by me, it was not cherry picked and it showed there were ample reasons to say it was a toss up depending on the qualities/skills you needed from your choice.
 
Ha now come on....CP is and never will be a bench player. The only person to ever bench her was Geno. And that was also a huge controversy.
Anne Donovan did it, too.
 
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I know we should probably just be letting this thread die, and this is unrelated to Parker but deals with the other 'the NT team under Geno has been turned into Uconn's graduate program' complaint.

Since Geno was appointed prior to the 2010 WC competition there have been a number of new additions to the players selected to the NT:
2010
Candice Dupree, Angel McCoughtry, Jane Appel, Lindsay Whalen, Maya Moore, Tina Charles, Asjha Jones
2012
None
2014
Brittany Griner, Nneka Obwumike, Odyssey Sims, Breanna Stewart
2016
EDD

So ... there have been 12 additions of which 4 have been Uconn players - 33% is high but considering that they have represent 75% of college NCs during that eight year period it suggests they come in with some serious talent to the team - in fact combine they have won 10 college NCs.
Specifically:
Tina Charles - WNBA ROY, WNBA POY, College POY
Maya Moore - WNBA ROY, WNBA POY, College POY x3
Breanna Stewart - College POY x3
Asjha Jones - WNBA all-star 2x

The only one of those 'Uconn' players who stands out as a 'Geno' selection is Jones - the others would most likely have been selected by any Olympic coach. The one other 'Uconn' selection was Cash but she had first been selected to the 2004 Olympic squad under Van Chancellor had been dropped through some injury years and then added back in 2010 - she played significant minutes in 2010 with 4 starts and good statistical contributions and played little in 2012. Jones played less in 2010 but with decent stats and had her one 'moment' defensively in 2012's tightest contest. 2012 was the last round-up for both of them.

Just thought this idea of Uconn's stamp being put on the the NT should be examined - the five current Uconn players I think are pretty unassailable and have been since their first inclusion, with one or two now likely in their own last hurrah.
 
UC very convincing analysis and I would fully expect that the UCONN players have a proportionate share of Olympic team slots considering how UCONN has dominated the competition in the last decade +.
Specific to CP, consider that ever American WNBA MVP since 2008 is on the 2016 Olympic Team except....... CP.
Consider that the only player to win the WNBA MVP more than one time in that same time span ('08-'16) is..........CP.
Since 1997 the only player to win WNBA MVP within 4 years of Olympic year and not make Olympic team is ........CP.
 
No, a comparison of stats was made that showed CP was not the runaway favorite. It was not done by me, it was not cherry picked and it showed there were ample reasons to say it was a toss up depending on the qualities/skills you needed from your choice.
I didn't see any analysis from you I saw analysis from @Orangutan.
 
Coco - interesting observation but only 100% accurate if you limit to Olympics - Lisa Leslie was was not selected to the 2006 WC team in the year she won her third POY ( maybe it is a bias against LA Spark players! :eek:)

A couple of other observation along those lines - she is the only WNBA POY to never have started the majority of any of her NT competitions, and she is the only one to have been unavailable for 50 % of the NT competitions as a professional. Taurasi, Charles, and Moore have been available for 100% and Catchings for 86% - I suppose you could add EDD to the 50% though she had never been on a NT in 2014, and was not yet a POY.

I know this issue is fraught with emotion, and I have no idea about how things have been perceived within the cognoscenti but I do think part of the issue with Parker might be (fairly or unfairly) a sense that she has not tried her hardest to be available for the WC teams. It was an issue on the men's side I believe and the men's committee made it clear that Olympic team consideration was heavily weighted toward those who played in the preceding WC competition. I personally feel more 'sorry' for Candice Dupree who has now been twice unselected for Olympic teams after performing well on WC teams.
 
Way, way above...I used the carefully chosen word aberrant to describe the decision to omit CP.
And that as the reason that an explanation is still required by someone in officialdom, no matter how painful.

There is compelling statistical evidence supporting or denying the decision.
There is CP's somewhat mixed performance on the team and her (relatively) modest International stats and the fact that if she was so great, how come she didn't start more often prior (under different coaches).

There are her Outstanding player awards that Coco mentioned which speak volumes.

And there is the assumption that leaving her off the team was a surprise even to higher-ups in the Olympic establishment who had recently used her to promote the very team from which she was now banished (excuse the poetic language...it's not about that).

This is an open wound...our Amfortas moment...with no Parsifal around to provide healing.
LaChina Robinson alluded to some deep unhappiness (about something) but then disappeared on vacation and was silent.
For the rest...the lack of a pin drop has been astonishing...hardly a peep

Feels like the China, my friend the Beijing based economist Chris Balding wrote about today...people afraid (reluctant) to open their mouths. Fearful of their careers.

Something is very, very wrong or disquieting at least.
 
msf22b - I like what you wrote, but ... I disagree about two points:
1. An answer is not really necessary - there is controversy and it would like be huge if the USA team doesn't win gold (which is never a guaranteed result) but it will dissipate if they do, and as I have said before whatever answer is given it will still not 'satisfy' a large percentage of those who are 'outraged' and it might be more unpleasant for a lot of people including parker herself and her supporters.

2. There are two possible reasons for the 'deafening' silence - as you state fear of negative consequences to careers, or understanding and acquiescence to the decision. The fact that Mechelle has been the only real torchbearer in the media and that so few players, coaches, and other basketball insiders have said anything suggests to me the latter. ESPN certainly doesn't shy away from promoting controversy and Kara Lawson for example is pretty blunt in her statements, well established, and could be said to have a 'horse in the race' with her strong love of TN, but I believe has been silent. And there are enough others out there - players and coaches who have little to fear with 'offending' USA basketball that I think we could have expected to hear more. Lin Dunn who I suspect at this point in her career doesn't care a @#%#@ for who she offends is an example of someone who rather than speak out, chastised others for going off half-cocked. Even if they were unwilling to be quoted for attribution, I would think a 'in talking to a number of WNBA GM's the general feeling is one of incredulity' kind of column for Mechelle or someone else would have appeared.
 
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2. There are two possible reasons for the 'deafening' silence - as you state fear of negative consequences to careers, or understanding and acquiescence to the decision. The fact that Mechelle has been the only real torchbearer in the media and that so few players, coaches, and other basketball insiders have said anything suggests to me the latter. ESPN certainly doesn't shy away from promoting controversy and Kara Lawson for example is pretty blunt in her statements, well established, and could be said to have a 'horse in the race' with her strong love of TN, but I believe has been silent. And there are enough others out there - players and coaches who have little to fear with 'offending' USA basketball that I think we could have expected to hear more. Lin Dunn who I suspect at this point in her career doesn't care a @#%#@ for who she offends is an example of someone who rather than speak out, chastised others for going off half-cocked. Even if they were unwilling to be quoted for attribution, I would think a 'in talking to a number of WNBA GM's the general feeling is one of incredulity' kind of column for Mechelle or someone else would have appeared.

I certainly don't want to start a conspiracy theory argument but...taking your thoughts a bit further in searching for an explanation to the muted reaction:

1. More than acquiescence...agreement: Perhaps the largest segment of the community concurs that the superstar woman in question is somehow deserving of the public humiliation that has transpired.

2. Without coaching...spoken of only on the inside...but conversations certainly occurring...of a fear from within that the W is in very precarious shape, that their livelihoods are hanging by a strand, and that most have concluded that a huge scandal, labor unrest, whatever would be counterproductive to their individual self-interest.

Better to clam up and let this one just fade away.

I have no evidence for the above views...just conjecture, like others, searching for clarity.
 
Actually, objectively, it wasn't controversial at all. The starting lineup with both Catchings and Parker produced terrible offensive spacing and it showed. Geno chose to keep Catchings in the starting lineup and replaced Parker with Moore who spaced the floor better.

Parker has played for Team USA in 3 major international competitions -- 2008 and 2012 Olympics and the 2006 World Championships -- and the only 3 games she ever started were when Geno had her in the starting lineup for the first 3 games of the 2012 Olympics.

Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.
 
Anne Donovan did it, too.

Anne Donovan brought both Candace and Fowles off the bench, although both were more productive than their more experienced peers. Anne knew it was the last rodeo for LLL and DMJ. She wanted to send them out in style and not have them come off the bench for the first timers. Geno did not do the same with Maya, which was odd in the fact that typically the first timers come off the bench, regardless of talent.
 
Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.
Ah... more conspiracy theories. So Maya's insertion into the starting lineup over Parker can now be blamed on Maya's mom? Can you please provide the quotes from anyone associated with the US National team that indicates this was the case? If not, then why even go there?
 
Of note is that Candace was removed from the line up after Maya's mother arrived. The reason given was that there was need to get more energy in the line up. What didn't make sense was that a game or 2 prior to that decision, Parker was the only player to record a double double, so the energy rationale didn't make sense.
Must we go here "Maya's Mother" really? Pookie and Ray Ray and Them got to the gym at the same time as Maya's mother! Is anybody looking in them?
 
Must we go here "Maya's Mother" really? Pookie and Ray Ray and Them got to the gym at the same time as Maya's mother! Is anybody looking in them?
Wait Ray Ray called said he wasn't there but he can't prove it and it was definitely Mookie and his people!
 
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