Big East expansion exercise approaching 2025…
- Thread starter huskymedic
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2011
- Messages
- 13,916
- Reaction Score
- 25,937
1. Nothing says power conference like adding VCU and Dayton. Or St Louis and UMass. Might just as well add BU and Holy Cross. Or how about St Joe’s. The one in Hartford not Philly. Great coach.
2. UConn has completely thrown in the towel on athletics. We will be URI before long.
3. We can’t get out of this garbage pail of a league fast enough.
4. Some of you are amazingly dumb. Norte Dame, Kansas and Gonzaga. Sure. And probably Duke, UNC, as well. Maybe the Celtics and the Knicks to get to18.
5. Only way we don’t end up with total trash is, well there isn’t really a way. Fox says jump, Val is half way up saying how high?
2. UConn has completely thrown in the towel on athletics. We will be URI before long.
3. We can’t get out of this garbage pail of a league fast enough.
4. Some of you are amazingly dumb. Norte Dame, Kansas and Gonzaga. Sure. And probably Duke, UNC, as well. Maybe the Celtics and the Knicks to get to18.
5. Only way we don’t end up with total trash is, well there isn’t really a way. Fox says jump, Val is half way up saying how high?
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
- Messages
- 5,971
- Reaction Score
- 15,008
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2017
- Messages
- 2,160
- Reaction Score
- 4,941
Since nobody has been banned for having CR discussion in the Basketball forum, let’s go further off the rails with the Big Ten - Big East rumor.
This is not my rumor, but I like it! A merger of the Big Ten and Big East with the addition of Kansas. The result is a basketball super conference, a stronger footprint in the DC-Philly-NY TV Megamarket for the Big Ten, with football added to New York’s MetLife and Philly’s Linc NFL stadiums.
The combined conferences have non-football members. UConn and Nova become full football members and Kansas is brought in as a full football member.
ND is committed to join the ACC if it joins any conference as a full member, but instead it eventually joins the BIG as an affiliate member and keeps football independent, or partially Indy as it does currently with the ACC.
Basketball
In the basketball pod system, programs schedule twice within each pod every year. On a rotating basis, one annual game is scheduled vs another pod.
A - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, Maryland, ND
B - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, DePaul, Butler, Xavier
C - Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Wisconsin, Creighton, Marquette
D - Rutgers, Nova, UConn, Georgetown, St Johns, Providence, Seton Hall
Football
In the football pod system, programs schedule within each pod every year. On a rotating basis, one annual game is scheduled vs another pod.
A - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State
B - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin
C - Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas
D - Maryland, Rutgers, Nova, UConn
The schedules are slightly unbalanced in both basketball and football but that is workable, and preferable to adding other members (like Wichita State in basketball) to bring perfect balance.
A prize in this merger is the basketball tournament in Madison Square Garden. The Big East holds the premier conference championship and the merger would firmly stamp the combined conference in the New York market (beyond what Rutgers and Maryland alone delivers to the current Big Ten). Kansas, UConn, and Nova are higher profile than any Big Ten basketball program, so the improvement is in quality, market footprint, and media exposure, which all equate to higher value.
In addition to the improved footprint in the DC-Philly-NY TV Megamarket, the Big Ten has a huge alumni population on the east coast. The basketball tournament is a prime alumni event, and their alma mater’s football programs visiting NFL stadiums in NY and Philly are a key attendance draw.
Non-rev sports can be regionalized to reduce travel and costs, with championships bringing the entire conference together.
This merger solidifies the Big Ten programs as they compete with the SEC at the top of the market. P5 autonomy may move to P4. The NCAA basketball tournament revenue is likely the next target for shifting revenue control from the NCAA to the power conferences. The merged conference is the top basketball power with the most influence and leverage.
So how does this work financially? With the Big Ten TV contracts through 2023 assume another 6 year term is in planning. Kansas protects its current revenue with a minimum $40M annual distribution over this period. UConn and Nova have junior football status and get a minimum annual distribution of $20M. The non-football schools get a minimum $10M annual distribution, which is up about $4M from the Big East distribution. The Big Ten can afford this based on the increased value of the conference and increased TV contracts in the next round. Kansas, Nova, and UConn accept a very long schedule to get to equitable distributions.
A look at the Big 12 TV deal reconciles the value lost, and the decreased costs from the TV networks:
Big 12 per program distribution is $28M from TV, and $40M total through 24-25.
The value for the next contract is projected at half in the new configuration. That’s $140M per year in decreased TV value.
Kansas remains whole with its TV value in the new merged conference. The 11 Big East schools realize a $4M Increase for basketball, with UConn and Nova each getting $10M incremental for football totaling a $64M increase.
The merged conference TV value increases more than the distribution to the Big East and Kansas members, and the TV network overall value is reconciled considering the new distribution vs. the Big 12 value decline.
More backing info - Here are the numbers from the 2020 fiscal year:
Total Revenue
Big Ten: $768.9 million
SEC: $728.9 million
Pac-12: $533.8 million
ACC: $496.7 million
Big 12: $409.2 million
School Payouts
Big Ten: $54.3 million
SEC: $45.5 million
Big 12: $37 to $40.5 million
Pac-12: $33.6 million
ACC: $30.9 to $37 million
Under a deal signed in 2017, ESPN now pays $190 million per season for some Big Ten games (they also include basketball games). Fox pays more for a better pick of games, about $240 million per season, according to the Washington Post.
AAC has 10 years of TV contract left at ~$5M per program. The 3 top AAC programs are moving to the Big12, diluting from the former UT/OU membership.
Big Ten per program is $38M for TV, and $55M total through 2023.
This is not my rumor, but I like it! A merger of the Big Ten and Big East with the addition of Kansas. The result is a basketball super conference, a stronger footprint in the DC-Philly-NY TV Megamarket for the Big Ten, with football added to New York’s MetLife and Philly’s Linc NFL stadiums.
The combined conferences have non-football members. UConn and Nova become full football members and Kansas is brought in as a full football member.
ND is committed to join the ACC if it joins any conference as a full member, but instead it eventually joins the BIG as an affiliate member and keeps football independent, or partially Indy as it does currently with the ACC.
Basketball
In the basketball pod system, programs schedule twice within each pod every year. On a rotating basis, one annual game is scheduled vs another pod.
A - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, Maryland, ND
B - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, DePaul, Butler, Xavier
C - Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Wisconsin, Creighton, Marquette
D - Rutgers, Nova, UConn, Georgetown, St Johns, Providence, Seton Hall
Football
In the football pod system, programs schedule within each pod every year. On a rotating basis, one annual game is scheduled vs another pod.
A - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State
B - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin
C - Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas
D - Maryland, Rutgers, Nova, UConn
The schedules are slightly unbalanced in both basketball and football but that is workable, and preferable to adding other members (like Wichita State in basketball) to bring perfect balance.
A prize in this merger is the basketball tournament in Madison Square Garden. The Big East holds the premier conference championship and the merger would firmly stamp the combined conference in the New York market (beyond what Rutgers and Maryland alone delivers to the current Big Ten). Kansas, UConn, and Nova are higher profile than any Big Ten basketball program, so the improvement is in quality, market footprint, and media exposure, which all equate to higher value.
In addition to the improved footprint in the DC-Philly-NY TV Megamarket, the Big Ten has a huge alumni population on the east coast. The basketball tournament is a prime alumni event, and their alma mater’s football programs visiting NFL stadiums in NY and Philly are a key attendance draw.
Non-rev sports can be regionalized to reduce travel and costs, with championships bringing the entire conference together.
This merger solidifies the Big Ten programs as they compete with the SEC at the top of the market. P5 autonomy may move to P4. The NCAA basketball tournament revenue is likely the next target for shifting revenue control from the NCAA to the power conferences. The merged conference is the top basketball power with the most influence and leverage.
So how does this work financially? With the Big Ten TV contracts through 2023 assume another 6 year term is in planning. Kansas protects its current revenue with a minimum $40M annual distribution over this period. UConn and Nova have junior football status and get a minimum annual distribution of $20M. The non-football schools get a minimum $10M annual distribution, which is up about $4M from the Big East distribution. The Big Ten can afford this based on the increased value of the conference and increased TV contracts in the next round. Kansas, Nova, and UConn accept a very long schedule to get to equitable distributions.
A look at the Big 12 TV deal reconciles the value lost, and the decreased costs from the TV networks:
Big 12 per program distribution is $28M from TV, and $40M total through 24-25.
The value for the next contract is projected at half in the new configuration. That’s $140M per year in decreased TV value.
Kansas remains whole with its TV value in the new merged conference. The 11 Big East schools realize a $4M Increase for basketball, with UConn and Nova each getting $10M incremental for football totaling a $64M increase.
The merged conference TV value increases more than the distribution to the Big East and Kansas members, and the TV network overall value is reconciled considering the new distribution vs. the Big 12 value decline.
More backing info - Here are the numbers from the 2020 fiscal year:
Total Revenue
Big Ten: $768.9 million
SEC: $728.9 million
Pac-12: $533.8 million
ACC: $496.7 million
Big 12: $409.2 million
School Payouts
Big Ten: $54.3 million
SEC: $45.5 million
Big 12: $37 to $40.5 million
Pac-12: $33.6 million
ACC: $30.9 to $37 million
Under a deal signed in 2017, ESPN now pays $190 million per season for some Big Ten games (they also include basketball games). Fox pays more for a better pick of games, about $240 million per season, according to the Washington Post.
AAC has 10 years of TV contract left at ~$5M per program. The 3 top AAC programs are moving to the Big12, diluting from the former UT/OU membership.
Big Ten per program is $38M for TV, and $55M total through 2023.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2017
- Messages
- 2,160
- Reaction Score
- 4,941
Griggs
Yale Bowl portal 8
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2019
- Messages
- 230
- Reaction Score
- 708
.-.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2011
- Messages
- 7,637
- Reaction Score
- 26,210
It is crazy, but any post that puts UCONN football in the B1G gets an automatic like from me.
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2020
- Messages
- 479
- Reaction Score
- 1,645
Yes, add Holy Cross as there football is at UCONN level. Not so much for basketball.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2014
- Messages
- 4,490
- Reaction Score
- 44,957
To those saying adding A10 schools, how would you have felt if UConn joined the A10 instead of the Big East? Because that's exactly what the Big East will look like if you dilute it with mid major crap. We are a top 7 program of all time, we should not be a charity for mid majors. How are some of you actually suggesting that...?
VCU/Dayton/St Louis in Gampel is the exact same as SMU/Tulsa/UCF. Gross. We are not a mid major - we should never be in the same conference as those schools.
VCU/Dayton/St Louis in Gampel is the exact same as SMU/Tulsa/UCF. Gross. We are not a mid major - we should never be in the same conference as those schools.
CL82
James Breeding sucks
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2011
- Messages
- 63,777
- Reaction Score
- 250,277
I have to disagree. It sucks for UConn. We need enough teams to get to two divisions so they can reduce the number of conference games and then UConn can add a couple heavy hitters to the non-conference.
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2021
- Messages
- 67
- Reaction Score
- 458
First post. This is a great board.
Just wanted to add this: a few years back the AD from Gonzaga outright said the reason they aren’t in the BE yet was not because of their position on the matter.
The fact is, at the time Fox did not want them. They thought the market was too small and their position as a power was not enough to overcome that. Again this was probably 3 plus years ago, I don’t know what their position is now.
But the Zags would jump at a shot to join us, logistics notwithstanding.
If Val is shopping, then this clue could mean if there’s a non-Fox buyer lurking, she could be selling the new network on a 12 team league with Gonzaga (since Fox not wanting them will be irrelevant).
Just wanted to add this: a few years back the AD from Gonzaga outright said the reason they aren’t in the BE yet was not because of their position on the matter.
The fact is, at the time Fox did not want them. They thought the market was too small and their position as a power was not enough to overcome that. Again this was probably 3 plus years ago, I don’t know what their position is now.
But the Zags would jump at a shot to join us, logistics notwithstanding.
If Val is shopping, then this clue could mean if there’s a non-Fox buyer lurking, she could be selling the new network on a 12 team league with Gonzaga (since Fox not wanting them will be irrelevant).
.-.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2014
- Messages
- 4,490
- Reaction Score
- 44,957
Uhh not sure how to break this to you, but conferences are trying to increase the number of games, not decrease them. If a 12th school was added, it's likely the Big East would move to a 22 game conference schedule.
We're not going to try schedule H/H series with the Duke's of UNC's of the world anymore because we always are going to have a preseason tourney, and then BE/B1G and BE/B12 match ups. The rest of our non-con schedule will be filled out by tune-up games.
If I'm the Big East I'm not adding anyone but Gonzaga (Mark Few is 58, you have to imagine he has at least another good 15 years in him), or I'm waiting for the next p4 conference to implode. Somehow prying ND away from the ACC would be amazing as well (but not gonna happen).
Put this in a letter and mail it to FOX
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2011
- Messages
- 7,637
- Reaction Score
- 26,210
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 200
- Reaction Score
- 446
I don't know how to break it to you but the A10 has always been the feeder league for the new big east.
Xavier - A10
Butler - A10
Creighton - Missouri Valley
DePaul - Conference USA
Marquette - Conference USA
That's half of the NBE right there.
Why would Dayton, VCU, or Davidson be out of place in this conference? Frank The Tank was being a realist. Why would a standing P5 team want to join it?
Eventually, Fox will make their choice of the realistic candidates and we will all move on with our lives.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2014
- Messages
- 5,289
- Reaction Score
- 19,755
You're both wrong. There is no interest in cutting the number of league games, but if they go to a 12th team, that will mean two schools each year we only play once. We aren't going to 22 league games.
Back to the point: Gonzaga is the only school that makes sense. If FOX offers $8 million a year, that will dwarf what they're making in the WCC by a number that will be magnitudes more than their increased travel costs. They could cut the number of trips by stringing together a few road games at a time. Could do all 4 east coast games on one trip. Only a handful of non-revenue sports would really be affected (baseball, soccer, etc.) as sports like golf and tennis and track don't deal with the same kind of conference scheduling. Will they go for it? I don't know. But if they do, we'd be idiots not to take them.
The rest of these suggestions bring nothing of value. People talking about markets are confused - markets don't matter when all of your games are already on national TV. The only thing that matters is "will people tune in to watch this team play." With Gonzaga, the answer is yes. With everyone else mentioned in this thread - Davidson, St. Louis, UMass, Saint Mary's, etc. - the answer is no. As such, there's no value to us or to FOX in adding them.
.-.
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2011
- Messages
- 13,916
- Reaction Score
- 25,937
Yup. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck. If it looks like a mid-major, sounds like a mid-major, and is made up of mid-majors, I think the same principal applies. And let’s be honest, programs like Providence and Seton Hall, though part of the original Big East, wouldn’t fit anyone’s definition of major programs today any more than LaSalle or Holy Cross (the first choice over UConn in the original BE) would. If it were serious about being a power league, it would be looking at contraction, not expansion. Give Providence, Seton Hall gold watches for their years of service and send them packing. Tell DePaul we love your spirit, but it just ain’t working babe. Tell Butler, it‘s not you, you, it’s me. ( we all know it’s you) Then reorganize around the remainder. Maybe you can land a Wichita State or Memphis. It isn’t great but it gets rid of the worst of the worst, and maybe gives you a base. Work out a deal to play 3-4 real teams from power leagues each season. It would mostly be a Midwestern league, but better than the dreck people are talking about. Why would anyone be more excited about playing VCU than they were playing Tulsa? Does Dayton really ring more bells than Central Florida did? And why would we want to play Davidson any more that Tulane?
CL82
James Breeding sucks
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2011
- Messages
- 63,777
- Reaction Score
- 250,277
Nope UConn was always invited, but HC did have an invite and turned it down.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2013
- Messages
- 3,551
- Reaction Score
- 12,292
Ummm, no. Realignment within the BE just won't work that way. One factor alone is the resolve of the Catholic schools. And sorry, but Providence and Seton Hall are much more important than LaSalle and Holy Cross.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2017
- Messages
- 2,160
- Reaction Score
- 4,941
Those programs were added at times of need to replace CR shifts. X, Butler, Creighton, were needed to get to critical mass for a full conference schedule. All great adds.
Going forward we think we are in a much more stable position with little risk of losing members. UConn is a risk, but it’s departure wouldn’t need a replacement.
We don’t foresee a need for Dayton, VCU, or Davidson to fill any departures, because departures aren’t likely. Adding them just for the sake of adding them only dilutes the conference. It averages down our product.
For me only Kansas moves the needle. The possibility exists as the B12 is itself diluted and dropping in value. Kansas is definitely a basketball-first institution and culture.
WVU? Nope
Cincy? Nope
Temple? Nope
Wichita State? Nope
Notre Dame? Nope
VCU? Ummm…. Nope
Now any of them would be ok in a scenario that landed Kansas, but without that those programs just don’t create value to justify the change.
UConn and Kansas were the two high value potentials. UConn made the move. Kansas is in a less certain and less valuable B12 position, so there is a possibility.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2014
- Messages
- 4,490
- Reaction Score
- 44,957
If UConn votes to allow A10 members to dilute our conference, then that will be a sad day. They provide absolutely zero value to the conference - zero. They have no national brand, no big market presence, and no program history. Conference realignment is so much different today than it was 8 years ago when the NBE was formed. Again, why would VCU/Davison/Dayton excite you in Gampel? How are they any different than SMU/Tulsa/UCF?
Our recruits have all said they chose UConn because the historic Big East rivalries are now back. They didn't choose UConn so they can play VCU/Davidson/Dayton. Literally no one cares about any of those programs
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2014
- Messages
- 4,490
- Reaction Score
- 44,957
I would have welcomed Cincy, WVU, and ND just because of the old big east nostalgia. Cincy vs Xavier in the same conference would have been awesome. X would have never allowed it, but if the BE had to expand, at least those programs are major bball programs and not some mid major A10 crap.
.-.
dennismenace
ONE MORE CAST
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2015
- Messages
- 3,995
- Reaction Score
- 11,511
Many of the founding BIg East and NBE members programs and some later additions would have been considered high mid majors or mid majors when they joined. It was and is all about TV Market share. Gavitt's idea was brilliant. Organize a league around all the Eastern TV markets and keep the talent home instead of Tabacco Road and Big 10 country. Target the schools where the markets are that need penetration and assess whether they have the commitment level to take a risk including a name coach with recruiting attributes and all the other things that go with being a successful program. Whether we like it or not (I don't) TV money makes or breaks programs. This is a basketball league and does us well since we cannot at this time compete for football.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2017
- Messages
- 6,475
- Reaction Score
- 25,769
One thing to keep in mind is that I’m sure Val knows that any realignment talk is an effective, easy and cheap way to drum up publicity (say a few weeks before your season tips off ). I mean, you have Saturday’s Down South writing about it lol Big East commish weighs in on how conference will handle realignment
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 200
- Reaction Score
- 446
You seriously think Kansas would leave Baylor to play Creighton? leave Texas Tech to play DePaul?? leave Houston to play Seton Hall? leave Oklahoma State to play UConn? leave Iowa State to play Butler? leave Kansas State to play Xavier? leave TCU to play St Johns? leave Cincinnati to play Providence? leave BYU to play Marquette? etc, etc
I realize that Eddie Sutton isn't at Oklahoma State anymore, but Mike Boynton is still bringing in dudes like Cade Cunningham.
If the Big 12 is "diluted" with the roster it has, why would you think former A10, MVC, CUSA, etc, teams in the new big east aren't more diluted than that?
The Big 12 has the reigning national champions and their updated roster is still rated by Kenpom as the #1 conference after realignment. I just don't see why Kansas would leave Group A for Group E, F, G?
This might actually not be true. If you look solely at tournament wins, Gonzaga brings around 5-6 million dollars to the WCC annually. That isn't even considering what they'd bring to a tv deal. I have no idea what it would cost for the olympic sports to travel that far, but nearly half a million dollars per team each year should go a decent way in covering it. Don't you think? Especially if they get creative with travel partners for back to back events.
March Madness Daily: How Much is an NCAA Tournament Win Worth?
The NCAA uses a unit system to calculate certain aspects of its annual distributions. Units are earned for each March Madness game played.
www.sportico.com
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2016
- Messages
- 266
- Reaction Score
- 1,230
St. John's and Syracuse (I think) we're initially against inviting UConn, but Gavitt insisted on their inclusion, both because of his close relationship with Dee Rowe and others there, and because he believed they could be a national power with the right coach. Once again, he was right.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2019
- Messages
- 3,087
- Reaction Score
- 13,159
I'm generally with you, but I think it is a misrepresentation to say that our recruits cited Big East rivalries as a reason for choosing UConn. I've read many comments from commits who said that being in the Big East was a major selling point, but I assume they are referring to national TV coverage, geography, etc., and not rivalries. If I missed something, I'm happy to be wrong.
.-.