Big East expansion exercise approaching 2025…

[superjohn]

I wouldn't say zero for Gonzaga. They've already discussed it with mutual interest in the past... they just couldn't get over the distance at the time. However, with the move to larger conferences and the scheduling alliances being set up, etc, maybe there's enough incentive to get over the hump and get creative this time.

If the Fox money is right they will be added.

 

[businesslawyer]

I wouldn't say zero for Gonzaga. They've already discussed it with mutual interest in the past... they just couldn't get over the distance at the time. However, with the move to larger conferences and the scheduling alliances being set up, etc, maybe there's enough incentive to get over the hump and get creative this time.

Interesting. Is it that the difference has lessened or that airplanes have gotten significantly faster?

Look, is there an amount that would cause the eastern schools to have to deal with non-revenue teams having to travel to Spokane occasionally? Sure there is. There's a price for almost anything. But the extra amount each school might get for adding the Zags isn't going to come near covering it.

 

[superjohn]

Interesting. Is it that the difference has lessened or that airplanes have gotten significantly faster?

Look, is there an amount that would cause the eastern schools to have to deal with non-revenue teams having to travel to Spokane occasionally? Sure there is. There's a price for almost anything. But the extra amount each school might get for adding the Zags isn't going to come near covering it.

A lot of non-revenue sports won't even exist in the future or will become club teams.

 

[shizzle787]

A lot of non-revenue sports won't even exist in the future or will become club teams.

I agree. The NCAA convention could very well lower the threshold for the number of sports needed to be D-1 while keeping the barrier to entry of a conference invitation. They could also allow football-only conferences at the FBS level.

 

[uchusky32]

Just saying they're farther west than X. But, yes they aren't relavant.

Even forgot about Marquette

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

It makes all the $ense in the world.

But does it? More mouths to feed with lower values, so payouts are diluted, more travel, meh on the court excitement factors. I'll pass, thank you. I'd much rather be able to schedule OOC and in-season tournament games in the top recruiting areas, create increased excitement and eyeballs, etc.

 

[huskymedic]

Didn't see this article posted yet...

Big East Realignment — Don’t Overthink It, It’s Gonzaga or Nobody - A Dime Back

Big East Commissioner Val Ackerman made Big East expansion news yesterday, by way of two tweets from Dana O’Neil. In the first, Ackerman says she will ask the Big East presidents to consider expansion in light of the 2025 expiration of the league’s TV deal with Fox. “What school helps with our...

adimeback.com

 

[Storrs South]

Didn't see this article posted yet...

Big East Realignment — Don’t Overthink It, It’s Gonzaga or Nobody - A Dime Back

Big East Commissioner Val Ackerman made Big East expansion news yesterday, by way of two tweets from Dana O’Neil. In the first, Ackerman says she will ask the Big East presidents to consider expansion in light of the 2025 expiration of the league’s TV deal with Fox. “What school helps with our...

adimeback.com

 

[Dooooooomed]

 

[HuskyHawk]

Your first mistake, never say "never, ever" in conference realignment. Kansas may not have a choice, I don't see the Big 12 existing down the road.

I am comfortable with never, ever in this case. If the Big 12 doesn't exist it's because it got raided and KU is at the top of that list. While it exists, it's still a much better option than the Big East.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

We’re not a fit for a mid west power conference with a solid Eastern foot hold , but we should add teams
from the West Coast. The logic is mind boggling.
Gonzaga best options if they choose are:
Besides the PAC is if the Big 12 adds Boise than Gonzaga as a basketball only its a remote but their next best possible option,that’s a huge step up financially but little incentive for the B12 simalar to the PAC
If not the logical step up is the MW.
Going from a single bid conference to a multiple bid does increase revenue. It also makes the MW more attractive to basketball oriented schools from certain other conferences.
That’s a win win
As for the Big East the most logical all pretty much duplicate existing markets . Dayton /Xavier Temple:/Nova
Except St Louis whose who is iffy but besides them
The A10 pretty much mirrors the Big East
except Davidson
Another probable is WSU
which UConn owes a favor.
They joined the AAC in large part because of us and we left.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

The entire A10 TV package is what, $10M total? There is a reason for that.

A10 BB pays $4.5 million a year for the whole conference.
Actually If I were Aresco I would lock up Dayton and VCU
Dayton is too close to Cinncy
and VCU is close to DC for the Big East
But they would be perfect for AAC consideration

 

[imno1]

I couldn't care less about the double round robin. Strength and perception of the league is paramount.

Get 12 teams with Gonzaga, reduce the number of league games to 18 (only 9 teams have to travel to Spokane per year). 20 league games is a bit excessive. Play every team once and most teams twice -- set up traditional rivalries that play twice every year, plus rotate others through.

It's really not about the travel to Spokane but the amount of miles Gonzaga would have to log.

 

[metsfan2323]

 

[Pudge]

of course, it is Gonzaga on a short list.

and YOU could do double headers for them that cuts a percentage of their Eastern travel. Say 2 games in Chicago together at Depaul's new arena; or Villanova double; or MSG.

What would really be great before 2025? How bout Big City Saint John's and Depaul getting far better. That would be the bananas. Georgetown too. Names. Nostalgia. That is what we are getting and ... if the BE numbers are damn good; the horizon would be outstanding if those 3 leap.

 

[bendm]

I guess I don't get why you're inflating Wichita and selling Gonzaga short. They aren't at all on the same footing...

Gonzaga recruits nationally/internationally and Seattle is a basketball hotbed. Who cares that Gonzaga is a small Catholic private school and not a flagship state University? The Big East is a league of small Catholic private basketball schools. UConn is the only state flagship University in the league.

The only hurdle is geography which could be fixed with creative scheduling and figuring out what to do with non-revenue sports. I can't believe anyone wouldn't want them for their basketball and brand. They are one of the best programs in the country and a national brand.

i think these responses are still beside storrs' point.

everyone appreciates the value of adding a mark few-coached gonzaga program, plus the BE would probably get rid of the round robin meaning the other 11 teams all wouldnt even need to travel to spokane every year. regardless, those travel costs are well worth the cache the zags bring.

but storrs' legitimate concern is what happens to the zags after few leaves/retires? are they wholly dependant on few or are they a blue blood that can stay at an elite level regardless of who the coach is? we dont know b/c it hasnt happened yet.

for all the reasons storrs gave i dont think they compare favorably to UK or Duke or UNC or Nova etc. and it's very possible that they could eventually become a BE bottom dweller like depaul except theyre 2000 miles away from the heart of the conference. that would be a drag.

the retort to that is who cares- we should add them now and reap the benefits of having gonzaga nova and uconn in the same league for the next decade and worry about them collapsing later because who knows if the BE will even exist.

 

[Storrs South]

i think these responses are still beside storrs' point.

everyone appreciates the value of adding a mark few-coached gonzaga program, plus the BE would probably get rid of the round robin meaning the other 11 teams all wouldnt even need to travel to spokane every year. regardless, those travel costs are well worth the cache the zags bring.

but storrs' legitimate concern is what happens to the zags after few leaves/retires? are they wholly dependant on few or are they a blue blood that can stay at an elite level regardless of who the coach is? we dont know b/c it hasnt happened yet.

for all the reasons storrs gave i dont think they compare favorably to UK or Duke or UNC or Nova etc. and it's very possible that they could eventually become a BE bottom dweller like depaul except theyre 2000 miles away from the heart of the conference. that would be a drag.

the retort to that is who cares- we should add them now and reap the benefits of having gonzaga nova and uconn in the same league for the next decade and worry about them collapsing later because who knows if the BE will even exist.

That's pretty much it. DePaul being a drag is one thing, having to travel 3,000 miles for a bad opponent sounds like a mess and waste.

If you can guarantee Few is at Gonzaga for the next 10-15 years then it is worth the investment.

But forget my citing of the DUI earlier on questioning Few's judgement. UNC and Duke likely just hired two duds as coaches. What are the chances that with K and Roy out of the picture in the hiring process and both programs dwindling in mediocrity by 2025 they don't approach Few to triple his current salary?

I contend it is Few recruiting nationally, recruiting internationally and not Gonzaga. Even if Seattle has a decent HS talent pool, they'd be competing against UC system, UW, and UO if a new coach had to come in and try to continue what Few created. Larger arenas, same to better facilities, larger pool of resources to work from and no future HOF coach.

It could work in the end if they pull the trigger it is just a risky proposition.

The same questions were asked of UConn when Calhoun left but has a lot more going for it to make it an advantageous place to succeed in the long run and believe Hurley has started to silence the naysayers.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

We’re not a fit for a mid west power conference with a solid Eastern foot hold , but we should add teams
from the West Coast. The logic is mind boggling.
Gonzaga best options if they choose are:
Besides the PAC is if the Big 12 adds Boise than Gonzaga as a basketball only its a remote but their next best possible option,that’s a huge step up financially but little incentive for the B12 simalar to the PAC
If not the logical step up is the MW.
Going from a single bid conference to a multiple bid does increase revenue. It also makes the MW more attractive to basketball oriented schools from certain other conferences.
That’s a win win
As for the Big East the most logical all pretty much duplicate existing markets . Dayton /Xavier Temple:/Nova
Except St Louis whose who is iffy but besides them
The A10 pretty much mirrors the Big East
except Davidson
Another probable is WSU
which UConn owes a favor.
They joined the AAC in large part because of us and we left.

Agree with a lot of your logic ^, except when it comes to conference realignment we owe no one any favors.

 

[Ajs120102]

It seems fox is saying they aren’t gunna pay much more than they are unless a bigger market is brought in. I think St. Louis solves that. But Gonzaga having a scheduling alliance like 1 or 2 big East teams a year will also be ok.

 

[Hogoff]

Gonzaga and UNLV

 

[SubbaBub]

There, we looked at it. Now we can move on.

 

[freescooter]

1. Nothing says power conference like adding VCU and Dayton. Or St Louis and UMass. Might just as well add BU and Holy Cross. Or how about St Joe’s. The one in Hartford not Philly. Great coach.
2. UConn has completely thrown in the towel on athletics. We will be URI before long.
3. We can’t get out of this garbage pail of a league fast enough.
4. Some of you are amazingly dumb. Norte Dame, Kansas and Gonzaga. Sure. And probably Duke, UNC, as well. Maybe the Celtics and the Knicks to get to18.
5. Only way we don’t end up with total trash is, well there isn’t really a way. Fox says jump, Val is half way up saying how high?

 

[AZHuskiePop]

A10 BB pays $4.5 million a year for the whole conference.
Actually If I were Aresco I would lock up Dayton and VCU
Dayton is too close to Cinncy
and VCU is close to DC for the Big East
But they would be perfect for AAC consideration g5 schools have to look to basketball for revenue

 

[Zissou]

Since nobody has been banned for having CR discussion in the Basketball forum, let’s go further off the rails with the Big Ten - Big East rumor.

This is not my rumor, but I like it! A merger of the Big Ten and Big East with the addition of Kansas. The result is a basketball super conference, a stronger footprint in the DC-Philly-NY TV Megamarket for the Big Ten, with football added to New York’s MetLife and Philly’s Linc NFL stadiums.

The combined conferences have non-football members. UConn and Nova become full football members and Kansas is brought in as a full football member.

ND is committed to join the ACC if it joins any conference as a full member, but instead it eventually joins the BIG as an affiliate member and keeps football independent, or partially Indy as it does currently with the ACC.

Basketball
In the basketball pod system, programs schedule twice within each pod every year. On a rotating basis, one annual game is scheduled vs another pod.
A - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, Maryland, ND
B - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, DePaul, Butler, Xavier
C - Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Wisconsin, Creighton, Marquette
D - Rutgers, Nova, UConn, Georgetown, St Johns, Providence, Seton Hall

Football
In the football pod system, programs schedule within each pod every year. On a rotating basis, one annual game is scheduled vs another pod.
A - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State
B - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin
C - Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas
D - Maryland, Rutgers, Nova, UConn

The schedules are slightly unbalanced in both basketball and football but that is workable, and preferable to adding other members (like Wichita State in basketball) to bring perfect balance.
A prize in this merger is the basketball tournament in Madison Square Garden. The Big East holds the premier conference championship and the merger would firmly stamp the combined conference in the New York market (beyond what Rutgers and Maryland alone delivers to the current Big Ten). Kansas, UConn, and Nova are higher profile than any Big Ten basketball program, so the improvement is in quality, market footprint, and media exposure, which all equate to higher value.
In addition to the improved footprint in the DC-Philly-NY TV Megamarket, the Big Ten has a huge alumni population on the east coast. The basketball tournament is a prime alumni event, and their alma mater’s football programs visiting NFL stadiums in NY and Philly are a key attendance draw.
Non-rev sports can be regionalized to reduce travel and costs, with championships bringing the entire conference together.

This merger solidifies the Big Ten programs as they compete with the SEC at the top of the market. P5 autonomy may move to P4. The NCAA basketball tournament revenue is likely the next target for shifting revenue control from the NCAA to the power conferences. The merged conference is the top basketball power with the most influence and leverage.

So how does this work financially? With the Big Ten TV contracts through 2023 assume another 6 year term is in planning. Kansas protects its current revenue with a minimum $40M annual distribution over this period. UConn and Nova have junior football status and get a minimum annual distribution of $20M. The non-football schools get a minimum $10M annual distribution, which is up about $4M from the Big East distribution. The Big Ten can afford this based on the increased value of the conference and increased TV contracts in the next round. Kansas, Nova, and UConn accept a very long schedule to get to equitable distributions.

A look at the Big 12 TV deal reconciles the value lost, and the decreased costs from the TV networks:

Big 12 per program distribution is $28M from TV, and $40M total through 24-25.

The value for the next contract is projected at half in the new configuration. That’s $140M per year in decreased TV value.

Kansas remains whole with its TV value in the new merged conference. The 11 Big East schools realize a $4M Increase for basketball, with UConn and Nova each getting $10M incremental for football totaling a $64M increase.

The merged conference TV value increases more than the distribution to the Big East and Kansas members, and the TV network overall value is reconciled considering the new distribution vs. the Big 12 value decline.

More backing info - Here are the numbers from the 2020 fiscal year:

Total Revenue
Big Ten: $768.9 million
SEC: $728.9 million
Pac-12: $533.8 million
ACC: $496.7 million
Big 12: $409.2 million

School Payouts
Big Ten: $54.3 million
SEC: $45.5 million
Big 12: $37 to $40.5 million
Pac-12: $33.6 million
ACC: $30.9 to $37 million

Under a deal signed in 2017, ESPN now pays $190 million per season for some Big Ten games (they also include basketball games). Fox pays more for a better pick of games, about $240 million per season, according to the Washington Post.

AAC has 10 years of TV contract left at ~$5M per program. The 3 top AAC programs are moving to the Big12, diluting from the former UT/OU membership.
Big Ten per program is $38M for TV, and $55M total through 2023.

 

[Zissou]

Since nobody has been banned for having CR discussion in the Basketball forum, let’s go further off the rails with the Big Ten - Big East rumor.

This is not my rumor, but I like it! A merger of the Big Ten and Big East with the addition of Kansas. The result is a basketball super conference, a stronger footprint in the DC-Philly-NY TV Megamarket for the Big Ten, with football added to New York’s MetLife and Philly’s Linc NFL stadiums.

The combined conferences have non-football members. UConn and Nova become full football members and Kansas is brought in as a full football member.

ND is committed to join the ACC if it joins any conference as a full member, but instead it eventually joins the BIG as an affiliate member and keeps football independent, or partially Indy as it does currently with the ACC.

Basketball
In the basketball pod system, programs schedule twice within each pod every year. On a rotating basis, one annual game is scheduled vs another pod.
A - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, Maryland, ND
B - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, DePaul, Butler, Xavier
C - Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Wisconsin, Creighton, Marquette
D - Rutgers, Nova, UConn, Georgetown, St Johns, Providence, Seton Hall

Football
In the football pod system, programs schedule within each pod every year. On a rotating basis, one annual game is scheduled vs another pod.
A - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State
B - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin
C - Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas
D - Maryland, Rutgers, Nova, UConn

The schedules are slightly unbalanced in both basketball and football but that is workable, and preferable to adding other members (like Wichita State in basketball) to bring perfect balance.
A prize in this merger is the basketball tournament in Madison Square Garden. The Big East holds the premier conference championship and the merger would firmly stamp the combined conference in the New York market (beyond what Rutgers and Maryland alone delivers to the current Big Ten). Kansas, UConn, and Nova are higher profile than any Big Ten basketball program, so the improvement is in quality, market footprint, and media exposure, which all equate to higher value.
In addition to the improved footprint in the DC-Philly-NY TV Megamarket, the Big Ten has a huge alumni population on the east coast. The basketball tournament is a prime alumni event, and their alma mater’s football programs visiting NFL stadiums in NY and Philly are a key attendance draw.
Non-rev sports can be regionalized to reduce travel and costs, with championships bringing the entire conference together.

This merger solidifies the Big Ten programs as they compete with the SEC at the top of the market. P5 autonomy may move to P4. The NCAA basketball tournament revenue is likely the next target for shifting revenue control from the NCAA to the power conferences. The merged conference is the top basketball power with the most influence and leverage.

So how does this work financially? With the Big Ten TV contracts through 2023 assume another 6 year term is in planning. Kansas protects its current revenue with a minimum $40M annual distribution over this period. UConn and Nova have junior football status and get a minimum annual distribution of $20M. The non-football schools get a minimum $10M annual distribution, which is up about $4M from the Big East distribution. The Big Ten can afford this based on the increased value of the conference and increased TV contracts in the next round. Kansas, Nova, and UConn accept a very long schedule to get to equitable distributions.

A look at the Big 12 TV deal reconciles the value lost, and the decreased costs from the TV networks:

Big 12 per program distribution is $28M from TV, and $40M total through 24-25.

The value for the next contract is projected at half in the new configuration. That’s $140M per year in decreased TV value.

Kansas remains whole with its TV value in the new merged conference. The 11 Big East schools realize a $4M Increase for basketball, with UConn and Nova each getting $10M incremental for football totaling a $64M increase.

The merged conference TV value increases more than the distribution to the Big East and Kansas members, and the TV network overall value is reconciled considering the new distribution vs. the Big 12 value decline.

More backing info - Here are the numbers from the 2020 fiscal year:

Total Revenue
Big Ten: $768.9 million
SEC: $728.9 million
Pac-12: $533.8 million
ACC: $496.7 million
Big 12: $409.2 million

School Payouts
Big Ten: $54.3 million
SEC: $45.5 million
Big 12: $37 to $40.5 million
Pac-12: $33.6 million
ACC: $30.9 to $37 million

Under a deal signed in 2017, ESPN now pays $190 million per season for some Big Ten games (they also include basketball games). Fox pays more for a better pick of games, about $240 million per season, according to the Washington Post.

AAC has 10 years of TV contract left at ~$5M per program. The 3 top AAC programs are moving to the Big12, diluting from the former UT/OU membership.
Big Ten per program is $38M for TV, and $55M total through 2023.

That’s crazy!

(I wanted to be first)