Big East expansion exercise approaching 2025…

[Zissou]

There really isn’t a non P5 school that moves the needle on conference value, or is worth sacrificing the full double round robin schedule format if we exceed 11.

Kansas is the prime target. It would take Fox making a commitment to overpay Kansas for Indy football to get the value for joining the basketball league. This would be mostly a win for Fox pulling Kansas from the Big 12, for which ESPN has primary rights (Fox and others have select games in a secondary position).

This is financially possible in the devalued Big 12, and transition costs can be minimized by waiting until 2025 for the expiration of current agreements.

I’d only expand for Kansas. But if we could land Kansas, I’d also take Kansas State and Iowa State as a package deal.

This isn’t consensus, but as a Philly and Nova fan, I’d welcome Temple in this expansion scenario (only if Kansas is joining) to balance the East. Temple in Philly doesn’t threaten Nova, it would only add interest in the Philly market by enhancing the rivalry with conference play.

Since a wormhole opened in this discussion with an emphasis on UMass, I’ll offer again that Kansas is the only add that justifies expansion and breaking the double round robin format.

East 8: UConn, Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Nova, Georgetown, Temple, Cincy.

West 8: Marquette, DePaul, X, Butler, Creighton, Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State.

Two games in region and one game across region in the annual schedule.

 

[ScottVib]

Twelve really isn't a magic number for a non-football conference. Unless there is a team that adds significant (i.e. more than just a per team incremental increase) in value there just isn't a reason to expand. Wichita State, VCU, Dayton, St. Louis, UMass, etc; none of them are that. In fact you could argue that the value decreases when you potentially lose more interesting (for TV) games with the loss of the double round-robin.

UConn was added because it was that kind of team for the existing Big East schools ahead of the next negotiation. There are very few schools out there and not already in a conference that is protecting their football investment: Gonzaga being the one that comes to mind.... but with a serious downside for the handful of sports that would have to travel out to Spokane (i.e. the non-conference meet type of sports).

 

[Friarsnoop]

Gonzaga is the only school that makes sense. Kansas is never coming to the Big East, and neither is any other P5 football school.
The only question is if the money is worth it for the conference and Gonzaga. There are a lot of sports in the Big East, but it's a basketball conference first and foremost, and Gonzaga is a basketball school first and foremost. If Fox ponies up the money, it will happen.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

In the BE bylaws, how many schools have to agree to expand?

 

[metsfan2323]

Gonzaga is the only school that makes sense. Kansas is never coming to the Big East, and neither is any other P5 football school.
The only question is if the money is worth it for the conference and Gonzaga. There are a lot of sports in the Big East, but it's a basketball conference first and foremost, and Gonzaga is a basketball school first and foremost. If Fox ponies up the money, it will happen.

Look at it from Gonzaga's point of view and you quickly realize they would turn down an invite. Big East membership can only hurt them. Their travel schedule would be brutal and might actually cost them recruits. Plus they are already excelling in their current situation, they are not going to walk away from 30 wins every year and great tournament seeding to play brutal Big East away games after traveling across the country every week. We (UCONN) constantly complained about our travel schedule in the AAC, Gonzaga's Big East travel schedule would be much worse and much more difficult.

 

[Zissou]

Gonzaga is the only school that makes sense. Kansas is never coming to the Big East, and neither is any other P5 football school.
The only question is if the money is worth it for the conference and Gonzaga. There are a lot of sports in the Big East, but it's a basketball conference first and foremost, and Gonzaga is a basketball school first and foremost. If Fox ponies up the money, it will happen.

The Big East won’t likely invite Gonzaga. If they did, Gonzaga would not likely accept. It’s not a match.

It’s also true that Kansas is less likely now than before the B12 expanded and stabilized, but it’s still possible at some future date.

Neither is going to happen in 2022.

 

[Kolumbo]

 

[Kolumbo]

Pittsburgh is Perfect.

 

[Fairfield_1st]

Plus with BCU sunken further and further into irrelevance, UMass would fill the vacuum.

Just wanted to clarify. BC sinking really doesn't create a vacuum due to them already have very little relevance. It's like dropping a pin in a pool, no real vacuum effect.

 

[Fairfield_1st]

Remember the reason we are adding a school is to add value to our TV contract.

Then maybe we need to look at the TV ratings and not enrollment levels and BCU "crushing" abilities. Surely that's what Fox would do.
I would be interested in Buffalo & VCU as potential candidates. New territories for us. But, anyone with an FBS football team in a conference would likely turn us down unless their conference would keep them.

 

[metsfan2323]

Then maybe we need to look at the TV ratings and not enrollment levels and BCU "crushing" abilities. Surely that's what Fox would do.
I would be interested in Buffalo & VCU as potential candidates. New territories for us. But, anyone with an FBS football team in a conference would likely turn us down unless their conference would keep them.

I agree, Fox should look at the TV ratings from the mid 1990's and find out if MASS residents tuned in back then. Current A-10 ratings are irrelevant to the situation. A Big East upgrade would change everything for UMASS basketball and their fans. Night and day difference. Look how jacked our fanbase got when the move back to the Big East was announced.

If FOX TV executives decide on their own who gets added without current member interference get ready for UMASS in the Big East.

 

[Kolumbo]

Then maybe we need to look at the TV ratings and not enrollment levels and BCU "crushing" abilities. Surely that's what Fox would do.
I would be interested in Buffalo & VCU as potential candidates. New territories for us. But, anyone with an FBS football team in a conference would likely turn us down unless their conference would keep them.

I think that the all-sport conference model will eventually be forced to change. It's primarily about football and basketball and it works fine outside of the overly crowded Northeast. Programs like UCONN, UMass, Buffalo, Temple, Army, Navy are all in unique situations. Basketball at Pitt, SU, BCU have all degenerated. You gotta keep 'em separated.

Why did basketball get all tied up and connected with football?

 

[Fairfield_1st]

I agree, Fox should look at the TV ratings from the mid 1990's and find out if MASS residents tuned in back then. Current A-10 ratings are irrelevant to the situation. A Big East upgrade would change everything for UMASS basketball and their fans. Night and day difference. Look how jacked our fanbase got when the move back to the Big East was announced.

If FOX TV executives decide on their own who gets added without current member interference get ready for UMASS in the Big East.

Why would current ratingls be irrelevant? I'm not saying to base it solely on that, but it does give an indication of fan interest. Isn't fan interest and TV engagement what Fox would be interested in? Maybe MA really doesn't care with all the pro options available.
I think a move to the Big East would be a significant change to most/all teams invited. What makes UMass any different?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

View attachment 72365

Purely out of curiosity (for the record I would be in favor of neither) what would Duquense offer that would make them a better candidate than St Louis?

I personally see neither as substantial enough programs to help the conference. The map that you included illustrates clearly the (near perfect) concentration of the six (just happens to be a division in a twelve member conference) eastern schools. It also clearly shows the region where an ideal candidate (if one existed) should be located (anywhere displayed on the map west of DePaul and east of Creighton). During the Eisenhower presidency Bradley and Drake may have been brand names. They aren't today but I could argue that they would make as much sense as Duquense. St Louis at least has a large market (20th metro in the US) but they also aren't enough of a brand (although I could argue on that level they also are above Duquense and any other potential candidate).

Back to my question: Why Duquense and why the desire to plant a flag in Pittsburgh?

 

[Viet Vet]

Pitt is going nowhere. They would have to leave the lucrative ACC, a step down, with likely a large severance penalty. Dayton, on the other hand, if moving up to the BE, adds a better geographic partner for the Midwestern BE teams. Plus.................if Pitt ever wanted (or was forced to) exit the ACC, I wonder who would gladly move mountains to step in.............. Huskies?

 

[Kolumbo]

Purely out of curiosity (for the record I would be in favor of neither) what would Duquense offer that would make them a better candidate than St Louis?

I personally see neither as substantial enough programs to help the conference. The map that you included illustrates clearly the (near perfect) concentration of the six (just happens to be a division in a twelve member conference) eastern schools. It also clearly shows the region where an ideal candidate (if one existed) should be located (anywhere displayed on the map west of DePaul and east of Creighton). During the Eisenhower presidency Bradley and Drake may have been brand names. They aren't today but I could argue that they would make as much sense as Duquense. St Louis at least has a large market (20th metro in the US) but they also aren't enough of a brand (although I could argue on that level they also are above Duquense and any other potential candidate).

Back to my question: Why Duquense and why the desire to plant a flag in Pittsburgh?

Duquesne is in the original BE footprint and brings the Pittsburgh market. There's a big empty space between Philly and Cinci. I don't think Duquesne is worthy but if we're talking location, Pittsburgh's perfect. St. Louis would be just as good an add if we want to add to the western flank. Butler was a great add at one time. Now? Eh. Heck, why not go with Mercy Detroit in Michigan rather than Missouri.

 

[metsfan2323]

Duquesne is in the original BE footprint and brings the Pittsburgh market. There's a big empty space between Philly and Cinci. I don't think Duquesne is worthy but if we're talking location, Pittsburgh's perfect. St. Louis would be just as good an add if we want to add to the western flank. Butler was a great add at one time. Now? Eh. Heck, why not go with Mercy Detroit in Michigan rather than Missouri.

No offense, but adding a school just because there is "open space" doesn't really make sense. We're not building a railroad and adding Duquesne doesn't shorten the flight between Creighton and UCONN. Expansion is about adding TV viewership not much else.

 

[Friarsnoop]

Exactly. UConn was accepted back because of their history, both in the conference and success on the court. This means high level competition and more viewers, which is what Fox cares about. The Harford market is nice enough, but if that's all UConn offered, the conference would've said thanks but no thanks.
You could convince me that Dayton or St. Louis can make sense as part of a larger expansion that includes Gonzaga, but that's the only way they get considered.
Duquesne, UMass, Detroit, etc have exactly the same chance as Central Connecticut, Bryant, and the Arthur Angelo School of Cosmetology.

 

[CL82]

I agree, Fox should look at the TV ratings from the mid 1990's and find out if MASS residents tuned in back then. Current A-10 ratings are irrelevant to the situation

Lol, sometimes it’s hard to tell if this is deliberate satire. If it is, well then kudos, really well done. Since there’s a possibility that it isn’t, let me just note that you have that exactly backwards.

A Big East upgrade would change everything for UMASS basketball and their fans.

You say this a lot. Do you have any basis, other than your imagination, as to why it would happen? How are UMass’s circumstances different than any other university in the country? Because if you can’t come up with an argument that they are, then UMass doesn’t have a better argument for being invited than any other team in the country.

 

[CL82]

No offense, but adding a school just because there is "open space" doesn't really make sense. We're not building a railroad and adding Duquesne doesn't shorten the flight between Creighton and UCONN. Expansion is about adding TV viewership not much else.

Do you have any evidence within the current millennia that UMass adds TV viewers? As we’ve talked about before, “well there’s a lot of people in Massachusetts“ probably doesn’t get that done unless you can show that they actually care about UMass.

(Pro tip: the way to show that is via the ratings and attendance for their games.)

 

[pepband99]

Butler was a great add at one time.

When? I've taken to calling them "Butlane," as they add nothing but a nice gym (which is admittedly better than Tulane does for the AAC). If anyone thought Stevens was a lifer there, i would like what you're smoking.

 

[Kolumbo]

No offense, but adding a school just because there is "open space" doesn't really make sense. We're not building a railroad and adding Duquesne doesn't shorten the flight between Creighton and UCONN. Expansion is about adding TV viewership not much else.

Why exactly is Creighton a better option than Duquesne. At least Pittsburgh is a drivable destination from the Northeast.

 

[metsfan2323]

The Harford market is nice enough, but if that's all UConn offered, the conference would've said thanks but no thanks.

Do you seriously think all that UCONN offers as far as CT viewership is the "Hartford Market"? (SMH)

Let me clue you in, when you add a state flagship university from a relatively small state you get the whole state tuning in. We're not some small city school (no offense).

 

[Friarsnoop]

Do you seriously think all that UCONN offers as far as CT viewership is the "Hartford Market"? (SMH)

Let me clue you in, when you add a state flagship university from a relatively small state you get the whole state tuning in. We're not some small city school (no offense).

I'll have to assume you didn't read my entire post if that's what you got it of it.

 

[metsfan2323]

Why exactly is Creighton a better option than Duquesne. At least Pittsburgh is a drivable destination from the Northeast.

Not sure, ask the C7, at the time the C7 were just trying to survive so adding the best basketball brands they could get was important.