B1G, ACC battle for New York

[freescooter]

One other note on this...UConn is fairly dominant in the Hartford-New Haven Market. BC is #2 but far behind. BC is #1 in the Boston market and interestingly to me, UConn is #3 behind Notre Dame. The problem is that college football is only moderately popular in either market. If you take a place like Atlanta, which is pretty comparable in size (Boston is #7, Atlanta #8) Way more people follow college football in Atlanta than Boston by 41% to 15-16% in Boston. H-NH is a little better but not much, and obvioulsy its a smaller market at #30.

 

[SouthronCross]

I don't know anything about Florida but my guess would be you are correct and that state would swing according to the relative success of FSU and Florida. But I live in South Carolina and have watched SC Clemson games in many parts of the state at sports bars. The ratio of fans is between 70-80% USC over Clemson at the sports bars which is consistent with what people keep telling me when I do my informal survey of how the state trends.

I believe that you are correct about FL, in that it depends upon which of the two (FSU-UF) is having more success at the moment. Since 2005, that has been UF. Two BCS titles with Urban Meyer, who never lost to FSU, tips the state in their favor. FSU is recruiting well, and, if Jimbo Fisher can get them over the top against UF on the field, it may tip again.

Your experience in SC is way different than mine. Most of the SC natives I know are Clemson fans, and, its about a 60-40 split.

What is unique about the 20-30% fans in SC that support Clemson is that they are every bit as passionate as the majority of fans supporting the USC teams. They don't have any sense of inferiority and, by their stadium numbers, back up their passion by placing people in the seats.

Thats 100 percent true. Clemson has also dominated that rivalry, historically speaking (65-41-4), so, that tells why they have no sense of inferiority. And, their fans are fantastic. Easily the ACC's best and most hospitible. They have no trouble putting 80,000+ in Death Valley each home game.

My uneducated understanding of the support ratio being what it is has less to do about success than about the cultural attitude and demographics of the state. USC is perceived by the average South Carolinian as the every man's university. Clemson is perceive as being more elite. And SC is still in a rebellious cultural attitude towards anything elite and the GDP in the state is in the last percentile of the U.S.

Thats as good as synopsis of the two schools that I've ever read.

In another post I felt the ACC had the markets of NC, Virginia, Md and Fl if the ACC teams in Florida did better than the SEC team. The rest of the markets were SEC. Three and one half states does not make a case for developing an ACC network especially since the most important 1/2, Florida, is whimsical. And this is why many of us in this forum are relating to you and @bstimpy the mistakes Swofford and the ACC have made by not taking UConn and Rutgers. The ACC could have ultimately, if RU, UConn and BC improve a modicum in football and do some of the things I pointed out in the other post, get NJ, most of the populous areas of NY, and NE. I would have added RU and UConn first and then considered Syracuse to shore up NY.

But the ACC wet for the s e xy short term fix instead of the smarter long term fix.

I do wonder if the warring FB and BB factions can continue to coexist in the very long term. One of the BB-first schools HAS to begin to perform in FB. No doubt about it. I sure hope that its UNC. We'll see.

 

[SouthronCross]

I agree. Texas is the XII. UNC, while not as powerful as Texas, is the glue that holds the ACC together. If UNC left the ACC, everyone else would follow them out the door with the only question being where each goes to (B1G v SEC v XII or in Wake Forest’s case, joining UConn in purgatory).

True enough. The academics would pick the B1G, without question. Many alumni would as well. The overwhelming rank and file of the fanbase would choose the SEC.

Where UNC would eventually end up would be one firestorm of a debate. That is for certain.

 

[SouthronCross]

I don't think that the designation of "flagship" or "land grant" mean that much to the ACC. Good basketball and football are the driving impetus (more than just "markets") for ACC expansion.

There has been some fractionalism...FSU, Clemson, VT, Miami and, to some extent, GT...have been vocal about improving ACC football. Coach K at Duke and the UNC faithful have always been more interested in basketball. Up until about 10 years ago, basketball brought in more revenue than football and football was the ACC's second sport. When the tide started turning towards football with the media contracts, the ACC was slow to react to the change. In many ways, Clemson and FSU are more culturally attuned to the SEC than to the ACC. An FSU guy is like a SEC guy...wearing a BBQ stained Tee shirt straining across a beer gut while screaming for the football or baseball team. No chino and oxford cloth wearing biffs with sweaters artfully draped around their shoulders like you see in North Carolina.

At one time, there was a Tobacco Road cabal centered in Carolina...Wake, UNC, NC State, Duke...and they could heavily influence conference decisions. Moving to Syracuse and Pitt was a basketball driven decision (with a little ND baiting taking place as well). Clemson and FSU (along with allies Miami and VT) were adamant that steps needed to be taken to improve the football side of the conference. The football guys wanted Louisville.

The ACC was a southern-mid atlantic conference when FSU and Clemson joined. The conference had taken a decided turn to the north with the additions of BC, Syracuse, and Pitt. Louisville was not another incursion into the northeast.

Without a North-South divisional alignment, that meant that FSU would be travelling to Boston and Syracuse (and Connecticut if they were chosen over Louisville) . The very southern schools saw the ACC turning into a more "northern" centered conference. The Noles thought it wacky to travel to the northeast while not having Georgia Tech in the division. The Coastal Division guys liked the way it was and didn't want to change their country club around. Also, Charlie Strong (from the Gators) was a known and respected quantity at Louisville.

Those of us from Tobacco Road south have pushed for a South-North Divisional split. I think its the best idea for all parties involved. Its eceonomically sound, as it cuts down on travel, and, most importantly, it intensifies rivalries, which are built upon proximity and familairity.

But, both UVA and VPI are 100 percent dead set against the idea, as they would be placed in the North Division (along with Miami, whose alumni and fans are mostly northeastern in origin). That alignment would separate UVA from their longest term rivals, and, VPI has flat out said they do not want the majority of their games to be against former BE rivals.

One idea that has been floated, is to let schools schedule fellow ACC members as OOC foes in years where their games would not count in league standings. That could be a good rule.

Right now, its a mess, and, they're addressing it.

 

[ctchamps]

I do wonder if the warring FB and BB factions can continue to coexist in the very long term. One of the BB-first schools HAS to begin to perform in FB. No doubt about it. I sure hope that its UNC. We'll see.

Tried to find numbers to see which of our informal searches was accurate. Couldn't find any. But this Wikipedia statement bears out my impression why the lean is for USC.

After World War II, the long held perceptions of the two schools switched. Whereas South Carolina was viewed as an elitist institution for much of its existence, it opened its doors to every qualified veteran and later encouraged minority enrollment, and the school's enrollment grew exponentially. Clemson was limited on the number of veterans who could be admitted due to various dilemmas with transferring credits and a flood of applications. Top priority, however, was given to veterans over non-veterans.[42] Clemson, however, did not admit women as undergrads until 1955 and did not admit its first African-American, (future Charlotte, North Carolina, mayor Harvey Gantt.[43]), until 1963. In 1964, the college was renamed Clemson University as the state legislature formally recognized the school's expanded academic offerings and research pursuits.[44]

Funny story from that article:

In 1961, the USC fraternity Sigma Nu pulled what some have called the greatest prank in the rivalry's history. A few minutes before Clemson football players entered the field for pre-game warm ups, a group of Sigma Nu fraternity members ran onto the field, jumping up and down and cheering in football uniforms that resembled the ones worn by the Tigers. This caused the Clemson band to start playing "Tiger Rag," which was followed by the pranksters falling down as they attempted to do calisthenics. They would also do football drills where guys would drop passes and miss the ball when trying to kick it. Clemson fans quickly realized that they had been tricked, and some of them angrily ran onto the field. However, security restored order before any blows could be exchanged. The Carolina frat boys had also acquired a sickly cow they planned to bring out during halftime to be the "Clemson Homecoming Queen", but the cow died en route to the stadium. Carolina won the game 21-14.

 

[woomba]

A North-South divisional split with Miami in the North division is not a true geographical split. I understand the logic behind it, but you can't skirt around the fact that a true geographical split will split up Tobacco Road, which is why they will never back it.

 

[billybud]

Big Ten hasn't been doing all that well in bowls, but getting bashed by ACC fans who needed a win over a MAC team to boost their BCS win % to .187 is laughable.

Yeah...I know. Northern Illinois had 12 wins and a hot shot QB...but had no business in that bowl (and no business starting out ranked this year). But, that is the compromise that the NCAA has made to continue the sham that we really do have 120 teams that play on the same level. A win is not just a win...it has value. A win over Bama isn't equal to a win over Akron.

I don't understand why the hate directed towards the ACC....Us FSU guys view the ACC as just a place to play. I guess, thinking about it, if one worries about one's team having a place to play, a great deal of anger must ensue.

 

[ctchamps]

Yeah...I know. Northern Illinois had 12 wins and a hot shot QB...but had no business in that bowl (and no business starting out ranked this year). But, that is the compromise that the NCAA has made to continue the sham that we really do have 120 teams that play on the same level. A win is not just a win...it has value. A win over Bama isn't equal to a win over Akron.

I don't understand why the hate directed towards the ACC....Us FSU guys view the ACC as just a place to play. I guess, thinking about it, if one worries about one's team having a place to play, a great deal of anger must ensue.

woomba is a guy who supports the B!G not UConn. And I still didn't get an answer why FSU probed the B!G for acceptance and yet is making a stink about traveling north to play BC and Cuse.

 

[Fishy]

woomba is a guy who supports the B!G not UConn. And I still didn't get an answer why FSU probed the B!G for acceptance and yet is making a stink about traveling north to play BC and Cuse.

Do you think that joining the Big Ten and having to travel north to play the likes of BC and Syracuse are even remotely comparable?

 

[ctchamps]

Do you think that joining the Big Ten and having to travel north to play the likes of BC and Syracuse are even remotely comparable?

That's what happen's when you only read one post! The answer to your question is an emphatic no. But our whale friend was stating about how FSU is complaining about the makeup of the ACC and FSU having to travel to the northeast as one of the reasons Ville was chosen over UConn. It was a silly statement and I'm calling him out about it.

 

[billybud]

Do you think that joining the Big Ten and having to travel north to play the likes of BC and Syracuse are even remotely comparable?

No school from the deep south would really want to join the Big Ten.....but as a last resort option it is better than the Big 12. And yes, that is FSU's beef...traveling to Syracuse and Boston was not what FSU originally signed on for when they joined the ACC. FSU used to play GT every year...now GT visits once every 12 years...

Many schools talked to other conferences about options if the balloon goes up and a conference falls apart......

But the ACC currently is the best that FSU can do based on culture, geography and compatibility of like sports since the SEC is out of the picture.

 

[btstimpy]

Do you think that joining the Big Ten and having to travel north to play the likes of BC and Syracuse are even remotely comparable?

I certainly would prefer travelling north to play BC, Syracuse, and UConn than travelling north and west to Iowa, Minnesota, Michigan, Indiana. We'll be travelling to South Bend, but I can get there from Chicago. Getting to Bloomington or Lafayette isn't easy, particularly in winter.

 

[woomba]

No school from the deep south would really want to join the Big Ten.....but as a last resort option it is better than the Big 12. And yes, that is FSU's beef...traveling to Syracuse and Boston was not what FSU originally signed on for when they joined the ACC. FSU used to play GT every year...now GT visits once every 12 years...

Many schools talked to other conferences about options if the balloon goes up and a conference falls apart......

But the ACC currently is the best that FSU can do based on culture, geography and compatibility of like sports since the SEC is out of the picture.

I think that's a fair viewpoint - I don't think Big Ten will ever pull schools out of the deep south and has no real chance with UNC either, FWIW.

 

[billybud]

Louisville has more of a southern culture than does UConn.....

I think that FSU and Clemson felt that the ACC had moved north enough and that there was danger of the southern schools being marginalized by a Carolina-northeast axis.

But, the primary factor is that Louisville was looked at as a promising football partner...with a very large athletic budget, a respected coach, and the possibilty of future growth in prowess.

Louisville, for 10 consecutibe years, has been ESPN's highest ranked basketball market in number of actual viewers. Maybe ESPN liked them as well.

"As fans prepare for the adventure of another college basketball season, ESPN examined the ratings for its men’s game telecasts in the 56 metered markets from the 2002-03 season through 2011-12. The results show the Top 25 markets from 2011-12, how the markets compare to this year’s Top 25 teams and overall trends from the past 10 seasons.
Highlights:

• One leads the way: Louisville was the top market every year, averaging a 4.1 rating or higher the past five seasons, including a 5.3 in 2009-10."

"​

 

[SouthronCross]

You mean that last game where we scored 3 times from the goal line and didn't get the call?If you think you won that game(stole it) then you believe SU beat Akron too on that "missed xtra pt"!When was that last game?"05" or "06"?IIRC that was(1 or 2 pts)the margin of victory and before that we were just bad as Schiano had to clear it out and build it on a rock foundation instead of stilts like most johnny come latelys do and you can see now the fruits of that labor JUST STARTING to pay dividends!

Actually, the last three games were in 2008 (UNC 44 RU 12), 2010 (UNC 17 RU 13) and, 2011 (UNC 23 RU 22). As I said before, the '08 game has since been vacated. The 2010 games was played with UNC missing eight players who were suspended as a result of the NCAA investigation. Some of those players were later found to have been improperly held out, when they had zero to do with any of the improprities. And, in 2011, we were dealing with an interim HC, due to Butch Davis being improperly fired from his job just nine days before the begining of summer camp.

Truth be told, both eams had their issues to deal with in '10 and '11.

When Schiano left everyone thought RU's top 25 recruiting class would collapse?Didn't happen despite the talking heads popular opinion and Kelis Fisher is still building on that and many B1G posters have been on RU's boards giving there congratulations(nice to be associated with that type of classy conference mates) esp from OSU,PSU and Michigan unlike that crab-barrel of the ACC !

Are you reading the Rivals boards? Because just from what I've read on their Scout boards, they're maybe not as enthusiastic about RU or UMD as the Rivals guys seem to be.

Thats what happens when youre in with a decent bunch of peer schools....they pull FOR each other not tear each other to shreds(vulture)!Have a little confidence even though the network wouldn't be worth it to your bosses(ESPin)...thats why they threw you a little bone!

Contrary to some folks' belief, the ACC's academic reputation did not just dissolve into thin air, because UL was invited to join the league. It is still very much intact. UConn is a perfect fit, and, a better fit, but, for reasons beyond their control, UL got in, instead. Their presence does nothing to erase the excellence of UNC, UVA, BC, Duke, Wake, Miami, etc. Nebraska's presence is no issue with regards to Northwestern, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc, either.

Pulling for fellow league schools in competition is an individual choice, not a leaguewide obligation. Do you really believe that UM or OSU fans pull for their arch rivals when they're not playing each other? I sure don't.

All that energy and concern over RU?I guess we've arrived. ... @check out this years recruiting haul up to now with #1 RB in NJ 3/4* Jonathan Hilliman from SPP,JC,NJ supposedly commiting at 430 this afternoon to RU over OSU! Another top 20 class from an irrelevant school? RU rising but not forgetting our brother school who was given the old ACC "Oh well,they'll still be there when we need them" spiel when everyone assumed they were next in line for an ACC bid !Again they raise the bar?

No, not real concern about RU, just offering an outside prespective. One that did not jive with your own, and, one that left us at odds. I have not taken potshots at RU, nor, have I denigrated its academic reputation, which is well-respected in these parts. I just respectfully disagree with you, in that I am not sold on RU being some sort of rising power, just because you're joining the B1G. I think you'll be competitive, but, you have a hugely large task in front of you just to be competitive in a division that has OSU, UM, PSU, and MSU as yearly contests.

It would be exactly the same for UNC, were we in the SEC East, and facing a gauntlet of USC, UGA, UF, and, UT each year.

 

[SouthronCross]

Its an invasion (organized by tobacco road) of ACC fans on a RU smear campaign and I didn't realize it until I saw it on an RU board that they've been making a "damage control" tour of former BE boards and PSU's looking to raise disenscion and repair friendships by using divisive psychological tactics on susceptable and weakened fanbases!

I have now read it all on message boards. Smear campaigns...damage control tours of former BE boards...using divisive psych tactics on weakened fanbases...ACC Black Ops are in full swing. Hide the women and children.

The old "divide and conquer techniques of Tsu's "Art of War" thinking were stupid yanks and it might just work knowing how badly they damaged relations with us (UConn) by picking "relevent L'ville" over us knowing what it would do to our FB program!I smell BC/SU behind some of this?SU more than BC as SU's demise coincided with our rise and they can't pull recruits from NY/NJ anymore and it drives them crazy!

Wow. Just...wow.

 

[SouthronCross]

Absolutely agree. And I find the ACC appealing because of the rivalry factor. I think BC and UConn playing annually is a win/win.

I second that. BC-UConn is a huge untapped rivalry. One that the ACC would benefit from.

 

[ctchamps]

Louisville has more of a southern culture than does UConn.....

I think that FSU and Clemson felt that the ACC had moved north enough and that there was danger of the southern schools being marginalized by a Carolina-northeast axis.

But, the primary factor is that Louisville was looked at as a promising football partner...with a very large athletic budget, a respected coach, and the possibilty of future growth in prowess.

Louisville, for 10 consecutibe years, has been ESPN's highest ranked basketball market in number of actual viewers. Maybe ESPN liked them as well.

"As fans prepare for the adventure of another college basketball season, ESPN examined the ratings for its men’s game telecasts in the 56 metered markets from the 2002-03 season through 2011-12. The results show the Top 25 markets from 2011-12, how the markets compare to this year’s Top 25 teams and overall trends from the past 10 seasons.
Highlights:

• 
  [ ]One leads the way: Louisville was the top market every year, averaging a 4.1 rating or higher the past five seasons, including a 5.3 in 2009-10."

"​

Far more plausible arguments than what I interpreted you to write earlier in this thread. And you are echoing bstimpy about the rationale for Louisville's choice over UConn. When it was announced that Ville was chosen this forum was sharply divided between the points you suggest vs. the suggestion Louisville and Jurich outworked UConn and Warde. I was on the side of your arguments as to the rationale of Louisville's selection..

And hopefully for the ACC it works out for them. However some of us, myself included, believe these choices of Ville, Cuse and Pitt, for whatever the reasons made by the ACC, will not help the conference long term. I postulate that Rutgers, UConn and one other was the better choice because the SEC flanks you in the Southeast and the B!G now flanks you in the northeast.

 

[SouthronCross]

I don't understand how the BC AD can't see the rivalry is necessary to stimulate local interest on both sides?Thats what FB is really all about..local pride and ability to actually get to go to the games!

It was BC's old AD who wouldn't see it for what it has the potential to be. New England's best major college all-sports rivalry. The media and fans would eat it up.

It'd be what we Southerners love to call 'good, old-fashioned hate.'

 

[SouthronCross]

Semper Fi Nicky....I am 67 .

My only South Carolina duty was at PI.

Parris Island...Geiger, Onslow Beach, Key West Naval Underwater Swim School, Fort Benning Jump school, Amphib Underwater Recon ( at UDT Coronado Cal), Pickle Meadows, Pendleton, Camp Lejeune.

I was lucky, I guess, in my timing...graduated HS in 1964..into the Corps, When the Corps started really building up in Nam, I didn't have enough time left for a full tour.

You're talking about my hometown now. When was the last time you were here? You probably would not recognise the place nowadays. Its growing like crazy.

 

[SouthronCross]

Begin?

I really hate when people who don't follow recruiting just make assumptions about how we are recruiting.

Apologies for the misspeak.

How many of the state's top 10 players for 2013 are signed with RU? How about the top 20?

I ask, because UNC got the 'sleeping giant' tag from Bobby Bowden, and, its been a yoke around their necks. UNC has the worst time keeping its best players home, what with top shelf SEC programs all coming into the state to recruit. Just wondering how RU is faring with in-state kids, since out-of-state schools recruit NJ hard.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Absolutely agree. And I find the ACC appealing because of the rivalry factor. I think BC and UConn playing annually is a win/win.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...llege-athletic-director-gene-defilippo-espn/1

"We didn't want them in,'' DeFilippo told the Globe. "It was a matter of turf. We wanted to be the New England team.''

 

[btstimpy]

Far more plausible arguments than what I interpreted you to write earlier in this thread. And you are echoing bstimpy about the rationale for Louisville's choice over UConn. When it was announced that Ville was chosen this forum was sharply divided between the points you suggest vs. the suggestion Louisville and Jurich outworked UConn and Warde. I was on the side of your arguments as to the rationale of Louisville's selection..

And hopefully for the ACC it works out for them. However some of us, myself included, believe these choices of Ville, Cuse and Pitt, for whatever the reasons made by the ACC, will not help the conference long term. I postulate that Rutgers, UConn and one other was the better choice because the SEC flanks you in the Southeast and the B!G now flanks you in the northeast.

The only thing to add is that the Tobacco Road and Virginia Schools were instrumental in getting the basketball additions Syracuse and Pittsburgh (UConn was the first choice of some as has been stated with BC steering it to Pitt), and they yielded to FSU and Clemson this time thanking them for allowing the others in last time. I think what Notre Dame wants will greatly influence the next offer because it will coincide with their adding 3 more ACC football games. I hope it's UConn. I don't know UConn's relationship with Notre Dame. I would think it to be good.

Should the ACC decide to go to 20 members, then we'll need 5 more. I would definitely want UConn in that mix. But some here have suggested UConn wants to go to the Big Ten instead. The ACC will have other choices, but I'd like to see UConn.

We're not worried about getting flanked by either the SEC or Big Ten. We don't need to own a market. We just need to be in the market, particularly one as big as New York. And with Syracuse and Notre Dame, the ACC is in the New York market. Adding UConn gets us into Connecticut and helps develop New England more giving BC a rival there. I could argue that West Virginia helps with Pitt and VT rivalries. But their academics are like Louisville. I'm not sure about them. And if you think Connecticut fans are mad at the ACC, it's nothing like WVU fans. The majority hates the ACC. I don't know if an offer would change that.

The Mid-Atlantic is a hole as we've discussed. Temple could fill the hole if the ACC sees the need to return to the Mid-Atlantic.

 

[upstater]

Louisville has more of a southern culture than does UConn.....

I think that FSU and Clemson felt that the ACC had moved north enough and that there was danger of the southern schools being marginalized by a Carolina-northeast axis.

But, the primary factor is that Louisville was looked at as a promising football partner...with a very large athletic budget, a respected coach, and the possibilty of future growth in prowess.

Louisville, for 10 consecutibe years, has been ESPN's highest ranked basketball market in number of actual viewers. Maybe ESPN liked them as well.

"As fans prepare for the adventure of another college basketball season, ESPN examined the ratings for its men’s game telecasts in the 56 metered markets from the 2002-03 season through 2011-12. The results show the Top 25 markets from 2011-12, how the markets compare to this year’s Top 25 teams and overall trends from the past 10 seasons.
Highlights:

• 
  [ ]One leads the way: Louisville was the top market every year, averaging a 4.1 rating or higher the past five seasons, including a 5.3 in 2009-10."

"​

Does Louisville own its own market? No, it's a market mainly tuned to Kentucky. heck, even Indiana siphons off fans. Then there's the other consideration: it's a small market, so high ratings are offset by that. I guarantee you, for instance, that UConn does much better in its market when it comes to the bottom line, and this shows in its licesning revenue which is much higher than Louisville's.

 

[btstimpy]

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...llege-athletic-director-gene-defilippo-espn/1

"We didn't want them in,'' DeFilippo told the Globe. "It was a matter of turf. We wanted to be the New England team.''

Things can change. For years UVA didn't want Virginia Tech in. But now that they are it has worked out well for the area and hasn't hurt UVA's recruiting or support.