B1G, ACC battle for New York

[NickyNewark]

Wildwood says hello!

Im a typical North Newark type growing up in the 60s/70s I usually headed for Seaside Heights !!

 

[woomba]

Speaking of Maryland.....Would like to pass along that I found a very interesting article in today's Washington Post sports section on the dire economic situation that they face at this time. They will make money at some point but most likely not until 2021 at the earliest. Some low points include......

1. 21 million dollar deficit and borrowing another 20million for this year.
2. 85 million owed in construction debt.
3. 15 million dollar membership payment to Maryland being withheld by A.C.C. until the lawsuit comes to a conclusion.( How much will that be)

Some interesting notes on travel burden... and the cost to pay/care for each athlete that the big demands each member school must adhere to, and so on.

THIS IS A MUST READ. In the end Maryland will make money but at what cost? Remember the days when the game on the field was most important?...... and now its the $$game being played behind closed doors that trumps all. College Football is the most exciting, colorful, action packed sport that exists... in my opinion. What a sad state of affairs.

As you mentioned the bulk of the current $21M budget deficit is due to the $15M withheld payments that's part of the lawsuit between ACC and Maryland and that's the reason why the department has to take out additional loans.

Everything else is part their over ambitious plan to fund expensive infra improvements without the fanbase to back it up ...hopefully being in the Big Ten will solve those issues sooner or later.

 

[NickyNewark]

Fair point. Of course, I'm not from there thank goodness. Spend all my time in the city or on the island.

I enjoyed the Hamptons and Montauk Pt in the summers of my youth!I haven't been there in 13 years !

 

[NickyNewark]

Just about anybody who's not from New Jersey will call it the Jersey Shore. People from the Philly area who's visits tend to be day trips or weeks in the summer tend to call it the Jersey Shore. If they own a house or rent for the summer they tend to call it just the shore. It's like the cheesesteak. If you're not from Philly, its the "Philly cheesesteak." If you're from Greater Philadelphia, it's just a cheesesteak.

Yeah,you know your in North Jersey when you hear were going "down" the shore!Everything is pretty regional i guess.

 

[btstimpy]

Everything else is part their over ambitious plan to fund expensive infra improvements without the fanbase to back it up ...hopefully being in the Big Ten will solve those issues sooner or later.

Being in the Big Ten won't solve it. Maryland Athletics has been a financial mess for 3 decades.
Their own commission thinks that they will continue to be:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...7c5ecc-0419-11e3-88d6-d5795fab4637_story.html

 

[NickyNewark]

Being in the Big Ten won't solve it. Maryland Athletics has been a financial mess for 3 decades.

But didn't they claim it had to do with under payment by the ACC?

 

[btstimpy]

But didn't they claim it had to do with under payment by the ACC?

It has to do with lack of alumni and fan support for the size athletics program Maryland is trying to run. They need a smaller athletic department for the budget that they can afford. The problem for Maryland is that now they are going into a conference that has several programs that will operate on more than twice the budget that Maryland can afford. It will be difficult for Maryland to compete, and if the quality of the product they put on the field or on the court suffers, then the fans disappear.

For Maryland's sake they better hope Dr. Wallace Loh has a plan. For it is he that has set them on this course.

 

[bingethinker]

Being in the Big Ten won't solve it. Maryland Athletics has been a financial mess for 3 decades.
Their own commission thinks that they will continue to be:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...7c5ecc-0419-11e3-88d6-d5795fab4637_story.html

At no point does this article indicate that Maryland has been a financial mess for 3 decades. Where are you pulling that from? Maryland suffered from a crafty A.D. (now at NC State) who was telling everyone that she was balancing the budget by borrowing from a rainy day fund and doing other silly stuff like paying for suites no one was interested in. Yes, Maryland's fanbase is fickle. Yes, Maryland alum don't support their university like Ohio State and Michigan fans do. I'm just not seeing anything that supports your 30 year claim.

 

[btstimpy]

At no point does this article indicate that Maryland has been a financial mess for 3 decades. Where are you pulling that from? Maryland suffered from a crafty A.D. (now at NC State) who was telling everyone that she was balancing the budget by borrowing from a rainy day fund and doing other silly stuff like paying for suites no one was interested in. Yes, Maryland's fanbase is fickle. Yes, Maryland alum don't support their university like Ohio State and Michigan fans do. I'm just not seeing anything that supports your 30 year claim.

That article I linked is talking about how Maryland athletics will remain a basketcase financially for another decade even in the Big Ten. This one talks about how they have were a financial basket case from 1986-1996:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/longterm/memories/bias/launch/bias19.htm

I've been around the ACC for a long time. I can assure you they had financial problems in between. 1986 til today adds up to 3 decades. I can remember them selling their home football games against Florida State in the 90s to Jacksonville because they couldn't get anyone to go to the games in College Park, and they could make some extra money off FSU fans in Jacksonville for the Maryland home game. The ACC made them stop. You can't run a league like that.

But, the Big Ten sees them as a collection of cable boxes that the Big Ten can use to extort some more subscriber fees from Comcast. So they got an invite. The ACC gets a much healthier athletic department in Louisville as a replacement. Someday hopefully we might get UConn too.

 

[woomba]

That article I linked is talking about how Maryland athletics will remain a basketcase financially for another decade even in the Big Ten. This one talks about how they have were a financial basket case from 1986-1996:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/longterm/memories/bias/launch/bias19.htm

I've been around the ACC for a long time. I can assure you they had financial problems in between. 1986 til today adds up to 3 decades. I can remember them selling their home football games against Florida State in the 90s to Jacksonville because they couldn't get anyone to go to the games in College Park, and they could make some extra money off FSU fans in Jacksonville for the Maryland home game. The ACC made them stop. You can't run a league like that.

But, the Big Ten sees them as a collection of cable boxes that the Big Ten can use to extort some more subscriber fees from Comcast. So they got an invite. The ACC gets a much healthier athletic department in Louisville as a replacement. Someday hopefully we might get UConn too.

Considering how FSU is the only AD in the ACC to at least break even without taking tons of subsidies I'm not sure how you can build a case against just Maryland when it comes to ineptitude. Maryland was the worst of the lot to be sure, but I wouldn't call most of ACC's ADs healthy.

Either way, as you stated, both conferences seem to like the adds for different reasons so I guess this is a case of positive synergies on both sides.

 

[ctchamps]

I agree that the ACC is a better fit for UConn athletically. UConn would be much more competitive in football in the ACC then the B1G. We have many more natural rivals in the ACC. We have plenty of CT transplants throughout the entire footprint that would attend games (any time we play bball in Florida it's UConn south). All in one time zone which is good too for TV. But, I've given up on the ACC -- they have passed on us too many times and have no reason to add at this time, not till ND becomes a full member which won't happen, not at least for another 15 years.

The B1G, however, offers a bigger pay day and should be a much more stable conference. There is likely a better chance for us to go B1G at this point if they find the right partner that can get out of their conference (Mizzou is the only option available in my opinion).

My preference is selfishly ACC because I plan to move south in a year or two and would have easier access to get to games. At the end of the day, I would obviously take either conference if they offered and be very happy.

Was going to write almost the exact thing!

 

[Fishy]

But, the Big Ten sees them as a collection of cable boxes that the Big Ten can use to extort some more subscriber fees from Comcast. So they got an invite. The ACC gets a much healthier athletic department in Louisville as a replacement. Someday hopefully we might get UConn too.

Well, yes and no.

The Big Ten did buy into two historical basket cases, but being the Big Ten, they're playing the long game.

They got two very large markets and I'm sure the thinking is that the Big Ten will sell itself to all of those television sets and hope that Maryland and Rutgers stop shooting themselves in the dick every time they get the chance.

In Louisville, the ACC gets a good athletic department and a marginal market. They're the short game and the ACC will miss the mid-Atlantic if the time ever comes for them to try to sell their own cable network. The deal looks good on the playing field in 2013, but handing the Big Ten all of those television sets in exchange for about half the eyeballs in the city of Louisville is a net loser on the balance sheets.

As for UConn, we'd just like to see you all burn.

 

[btstimpy]

Considering how FSU is the only AD in the ACC to at least break even without taking tons of subsidies I'm not sure how you can build a case against just Maryland when it comes to ineptitude. Maryland was the worst of the lot to be sure, but I wouldn't call most of ACC's ADs healthy.

Either way, as you stated, both conferences seem to like the adds for different reasons so I guess this is a case of positive synergies on both sides.

All of the ADs in the ACC are managed better than Maryland. I wish they all could afford to field varsity teams in all 25 sports that the ACC sponsors. Unfortunately, several of the athletic departments in the league cannot afford to. Maryland was one that could not afford to, but went into debt trying. They have now flushed 7 sports to get down to 17 or so that they sponsor. I'm happy to add another member to the league like Louisville that sponsors 23. They are only missing Men's Lacrosse and Wrestling.

UConn sponsors 22 of the ACC sports missing Men's Lacrosse, Wrestling, and Women's golf. But UConn also has Ice Hockey. The ACC doesn't. But we have BC and Notre Dame who do. Possibly someone else will add it down the road like Syracuse.

 

[uconndogs]

You have to be a real visionary to see Rutgers as a good long play. And unless you are the Yankess we know one thing about the NYC market...they don't give a rat's a** if you don't win.

 

[btstimpy]

Well, yes and no.

The Big Ten did buy into two historical basket cases, but being the Big Ten, they're playing the long game.

They got two very large markets and I'm sure the thinking is that the Big Ten will sell itself to all of those television sets and hope that Maryland and Rutgers stop shooting themselves in the every time they get the chance.

In Louisville, the ACC gets a good athletic department and a marginal market. They're the short game and the ACC will miss the mid-Atlantic if the time ever comes for them to try to sell their own cable network. The deal looks good on the playing field in 2013, but handing the Big Ten all of those television sets in exchange for about half the eyeballs in the city of Louisville is a net loser on the balance sheets.

As for UConn, we'd just like to see you all burn.

The ACC can restore the Mid-Atlantic by adding Temple if the ACC thinks it needs the Mid-Atlantic. While Temple doesn't captivate its home market, neither does Maryland. It would be a judgement call based on whether Temple can help get distribution on Comcast. I don't know what the plan is, but I know that the ACC has one.

I personally like UConn for the New York/New England area, and UConn is a better athletic department than Temple. But the question is the Mid-Atlantic. I think Temple can restore much of what Maryland lost. We'd trade Baltimore for Philadelphia. I'd only want to do this if we're going to 20 members ultimately.

 

[woomba]

I would love to see ACC add Temple - the level of ridicule on the message boards would be epic.

We're now talking about a team that never even won the MAC in the 5 years it was relegated down a level from the Big East.

Edit : Ok, I looked it up, Temple was only in the MAC 5 years.

 

[btstimpy]

I would love to see ACC add Temple - the level of ridicule on the message boards would be epic.

We're now talking about a team that never even won the MAC in the decade it was relegated down a level from the Big East.

Kinda like the Big Ten adding Rutgers.

Temple was only in the MAC for football. How did they do in the Atlantic 10? I could see Philly forgetting who Villanova is if Temple started playing an ACC basketball schedule and winning. Yes they have work to do in football, but don't expect Maryland or Rutgers to win the Big Ten East football title for a while either.

 

[SubbaBub]

The ACC can restore the Mid-Atlantic by adding Temple if the ACC thinks it needs the Mid-Atlantic. While Temple doesn't captivate its home market, neither does Maryland. It would be a judgement call based on whether Temple can help get distribution on Comcast. I don't know what the plan is, but I know that the ACC has one.

I personally like UConn for the New York/New England area, and UConn is a better athletic department than Temple. But the question is the Mid-Atlantic. I think Temple can restore much of what Maryland lost. We'd trade Baltimore for Philadelphia. I'd only want to do this if we're going to 20 members ultimately.

Did anyone else snort when he said Temple? I woke up the dog.

 

[woomba]

Kinda like the Big Ten adding Rutgers.

Temple was only in the MAC for football. How did they do in the Atlantic 10? I could see Philly forgetting who Villanova is if Temple started playing an ACC basketball schedule and winning. Yes they have work to do in football, but don't expect Maryland or Rutgers to win the Big Ten East football title for a while either.

I strongly encourage the ACC to follow that line of reasoning and see what happens. Maybe add Memphis too while at it.

 

[btstimpy]

I strongly encourage the ACC to follow that line of reasoning and see what happens. Maybe add Memphis too while at it.

I know what would happen. Philadelphia would become an ACC basketball town. There would need to be work on the football side, but the Big Ten is going to find hard work in Maryland and Rutgers too in football. They are going to find hard work in everything when it comes to Rutgers.

We've been talking markets here. Someone just pointed that out above regarding Louisville. In Louisville, the ACC added the Sugar Bowl and NCAA Men's Basketball Champion. When we discuss that, people tell me it's a small market. Philly is a bigger market than Louisville is it not?

 

[woomba]

I know what would happen. Philadelphia would become an ACC basketball town. There would need to be work on the football side, but the Big Ten is going to find hard work in Maryland and Rutgers too in football. They are going to find hard work in everything when it comes to Rutgers.

We've been talking markets here. Someone just pointed that out above regarding Louisville. In Louisville, the ACC added the Sugar Bowl and NCAA Men's Basketball Champion. When we discuss that, people tell me it's a small market. Philly is a bigger market than Louisville is it not?

The main difference would be that Kentucky in general has no pro teams while Philly does - it thoroughly a Pro town, but yes Philly is a bigger market if that's the only metric you're looking at. Penn State obviously rules the college sports side of things but their Basketball program has sucked for a long time so there is technically room for a basketball program to make its mark.

If ACC really wants to go for it, I think they would

 

[btstimpy]

The main difference would be that Kentucky in general has no pro teams while Philly does - it thoroughly a Pro town, but yes Philly is a bigger market if that's the only metric you're looking at. Penn State obviously rules the college sports side of things but their Basketball program has sucked for a long time so there is technically room for a basketball program to make its mark.

If ACC really wants to go for it, I think they would

It would be primarily a basketball move done to get the ACC Network on the air in that market. That's all. I'm not advocating that Temple football will light the world on fire in Philadelphia. I looked at their attendance last season for football. It averaged around 25,000. That looks sparse in a 69,000 seat stadium. There is room for improvement there. Maybe they will improve in the AAC.

 

[Adios]

It would be primarily a basketball move done to get the ACC Network on the air in that market. That's all. I'm not advocating that Temple football will light the world on fire in Philadelphia. I looked at their attendance last season for football. It averaged around 25,000. That looks sparse in a 69,000 seat stadium. There is room for improvement there. Maybe they will improve in the AAC.

I knew this day would come. Just came much quicker than I ever imagined. How about ECU? They going to the SEC? Taking in ODU?

 

[UConn990411]

The ACC can restore the Mid-Atlantic by adding Temple if the ACC thinks it needs the Mid-Atlantic. While Temple doesn't captivate its home market, neither does Maryland. It would be a judgement call based on whether Temple can help get distribution on Comcast. I don't know what the plan is, but I know that the ACC has one.

I personally like UConn for the New York/New England area, and UConn is a better athletic department than Temple. But the question is the Mid-Atlantic. I think Temple can restore much of what Maryland lost. We'd trade Baltimore for Philadelphia. I'd only want to do this if we're going to 20 members ultimately.

You seem like a good dude, but you're putting whatever credibility you have in jeopardy by comparing Temple to Maryland.

You're outta your freakin' mind if you think Temple replaces even 1/10th of what the ACC lost when Maryland bolted. There's a reason the Big East waited until its boat sank and its lifeboat was sinking before giving Temple the invite.

 

[btstimpy]

You seem like a good dude, but you're putting whatever credibility you have in jeopardy by comparing Temple to Maryland.

You're outta your freakin' mind if you think Temple replaces even 1/10th of what the ACC lost when Maryland bolted. There's a reason the Big East waited until its boat sank and its lifeboat was sinking before giving Temple the invite.

What is the reason? Temple is a larger public school than Maryland with over 200,000 living alumni and 38,000 students. They field consistently good basketball teams. They knocked off NCState in last year's NCAA tournament. Duke went to Philly to play Temple in basketball a couple of years ago and got their fannies whipped. Maryland would have a hard time winning basketball games there.

Maryland got their fannies whipped by Temple 38-7 in football in College Park, MD two years ago, and barely beat Temple last season. Temple averages about 25,000 for football games attendance wise. Maryland averages about 32000. Temple spends about $30 million a year on athletics and doesn't lose a ton of money. Maryland spends about $60 million and loses $10 million. ACC TV money could help close some of this gap.

The Big East never wanted Temple because Villanova blackballed Temple in basketball. They took them in football only mode once in the 90s, and Temple didn't support the football program well enough when they played at the Vet. So the Big East football conference kicked them out. Temple supports it better now.

There is no doubt that I'd rather have Penn State or UConn, but we're talking about the Mid-Atlantic market. You must have a higher opinion of Maryland's value than I do. And I come from a school that's played Maryland in 75 football games and 175 basketball games.

 

[upstater]

Speaking of Maryland.....Would like to pass along that I found a very interesting article in today's Washington Post sports section on the dire economic situation that they face at this time. They will make money at some point but most likely not until 2021 at the earliest. Some low points include......

1. 21 million dollar deficit and borrowing another 20million for this year.
2. 85 million owed in construction debt.
3. 15 million dollar membership payment to Maryland being withheld by A.C.C. until the lawsuit comes to a conclusion.( How much will that be)

Some interesting notes on travel burden... and the cost to pay/care for each athlete that the big demands each member school must adhere to, and so on.

THIS IS A MUST READ. In the end Maryland will make money but at what cost? Remember the days when the game on the field was most important?...... and now its the $$game being played behind closed doors that trumps all. College Football is the most exciting, colorful, action packed sport that exists... in my opinion. What a sad state of affairs.

Maryland is simply being honest. $85 million in construction debt? That's peanuts. Those numbers don't show up on the AD side. Most schools bury their hundreds of millions in construction debt on the academic side.

 

[btstimpy]

I knew this day would come. Just came much quicker than I ever imagined. How about ECU? They going to the SEC? Taking in ODU?

If the SEC wants the North Carolina and Virginia markets, it's a way to do it. Who knows?

 

[SouthronCross]

The geography is everything. I'm buying China over Italy. I don't care about the Roman Empire. Wonderful story whose time has passed. Modern day Italy will survive. So will Cuse and BC. But the publics like Rutgers and UConn will overtake Cuse and BC in the near future.

I am guessing that by 'overtaken,' you are referring t more than just athletics. If so, what gives the belief that RU and UConn will overtake SU and BC?

I don't believe Rutgers or UConn will rise to the level of Alabama or LSU or Ohio State. But they have a better potential to reach the level of Wisconsin than the privates.

I agree that both of you can reach the level of a Wisconsin, given the right HC hire, and, good recruiting. Why is it that the present and near future will see this happening? Weren't a lot of the same things impotant for development...population, access to recruiting grounds, relationships with HS coaches...in place before?

What I project is that the northeast (outside of Penn.) is a sleeping tiger that with the right moves, could in every way, develop huge fan bases for football. It isn't really about recruiting grounds that Delaney has taken Rutgers. It's about potential fans and thus viewership and thus dollars and thus further separation from the ACC.

The northeast is a potential uptapped goldmine for talent. Why is it that just PA and NJ HSFB have been able to produce a lot of top flight talent, while NY State has not? Is hoops a bigger draw than football at the HS level there? Do you see that changing?

If the ACC had more vision they would have beaten Delaney to the punch. They could have taken UConn and Rutgers and Maryland would have been marginalized in the eyes of the B!G.

We know UConn was in the ACC's expansion plans in 2011. But, that unfortuately got derailed by a football-first schools pushback against them. If RU was in the ACC's plans, I am not sure I ever heard it. Swofford plays a lot of things close to the vest. Maybe RU was in his plans. I don't have a clue.

The funny thing is Rutgers and UConn would have kept BC relevant for a much longer time than I expect will happen without them.

I still believe a northest pod of UConn-Syracuse-BC would have been a boon for the league. Maybe it still will e.

I totally see your point concerning RU (I am already sold on UConn joining the ACC). Swofford might agree with you, too. But, selling what RU offers, and, then getting the ACC members to vote them in, is another thing altogether.

 

[SouthronCross]

Not disparaging in any way. I wish UConn had BC's problems.

I didn't mean you. I meant on a national basis. If we can win more of those big OOC games, the talk will slow down, and, then stop.

But relative to the PAC, B!G and SEC the ACC will most likely fall further behind in terms of revenues even if it does begin winning because they only control two strong markets. The best hope is for FSU to dominate and win several NCs in football. That could get people in Fl. to view the ACC instead of the SEC. Outside of that the ACC will basically stay at a level below the other three.

The look-ins provided in the ACC's contract with ESPN provides the ACC with the opportunity to get its deal redone. Its all on our members now to win. We have no excuses.

The one thing that I believe people totally get wrong is how well an ACCN would play in places like SC and FL. Yes, South Carolina and Florida cast large shadows over their states, but, to think that nobody in those states care about FSU and Clemson is a complete fallacy. Those states are A LOT closer to 50-50 than folks outside of this region tend to think. Georgia and Kentucky are 90 percent owned by UGA and UK, so, our network would be a tough sell there. All that said, I am not kidding myself about how tough even getting a network going now will be.

The push to get Rutgers and UConn would have been the riskier move but if they could develop to the next level in football that would have been another way that the ACC could have generated more numbers of viewers. The play in the northeast is to generate a greater interest in college football. It lags the rest of the country and it has a huge population of untapped fans. I'm saying Rutgers and UConn was the better play to get that untapped source than Cuse and Pitt. I don't have any more allegiance to Rutgers than BC, Cuse or Pitt. Its just how I'm assessing things.

You hit the nail right on the head with the word 'if.' I am more sold on the idea of UConn getting up to the next level than I am on RU. They've been smack in the middle of a top-flight rcruiting ground for HS sports, but, they've never taken advantage of it. Being in the B1G is no doubt a positive, but, it hasn't helped the likes of Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana, or, Purdue over the long term. Maybe they will be different, but, until they do, I will be a skeptic. Just like I am a skeptic of my own team.

 

[NickyNewark]

Kinda like the Big Ten adding Rutgers.

Temple was only in the MAC for football. How did they do in the Atlantic 10? I could see Philly forgetting who Villanova is if Temple started playing an ACC basketball schedule and winning. Yes they have work to do in football, but don't expect Maryland or Rutgers to win the Big Ten East football title for a while either.

No,more like the ACC trying for NY with a Finger Lakes district team!How long can SUFB tout Jim Brown?Just watching where the kids go following recruiting shows whose relevent and whose not!Outside of 2 or 3 ACC teams in CFB and market RU trumps schools like Wake,Duke,Va,SU, NCSt and Md!I see going across the PSU,L'ville,SU and all local boards NC and some ACC teams are trying an RU smear campaign...check RU rivals board...whats up with that?