B1G, ACC battle for New York

[RegisteredUconn]

I understand why we catch grief for not adding UConn, which was a big mistake by the ACC, IMHO. I do not see bypassing RU as a mistake, though.

Other than their geographic location, what else about them can we sell to the likes of FSU, CU, GT, VPI, or, Miami? What else justifies them as a 'must add' type of school?

The major reason I give the ACC grief is Swofford. Hell, truth be told, I've got College Park roots myself (not that those will be relevant to the ACC much longer). Going back to the first Big East raid, here's what has happened (to the best of my memory):

PAC - added Colorado and Utah.
SEC - added TAMU and Missouri.
B1G - added Nebraska, Maryland, and Rutgers.
B12 - added WVU and TCU. Lost Colorado, Nebraska, Missouri, Texas A&M.
ACC - added BCU, VaTech, Miami, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville. Partially added ND. Lost Maryland.

Can you spot the elephant in that living room? I don't mean the conference, I mean the type of school being added (or lost). PAC adds two state flagships. SEC adds two state flagships (OK, TAMU might not be a flagship but Texas is really big and A&M is damn close). B1G adds three flagships. B12 adds a flagship but loses 4. ACC adds no flagships and loses 1. Conference membership now stands as follows:

PAC - Seven flagships (I'm considering Cal and UCLA flagships for the same reason I feel TAMU is), three state #2 publics, and two privates.
SEC - Eleven flagships, two state #2 publics, and one private.
B1G - Eleven flagships, two state #2 publics, and one private.
B12 - Four flagships, three state #2 publics, Texas Tech, and two privates.
ACC - Two flagships, seven state #2 publics, and five-and-a-half privates.

Swofford may have been hamstrung (as far as adding UConn and Rutgers rather than Pitt and Cuse) to a degree by the "football" schools but its his JOB to overcome those objections by presenting a clear and compelling vision for the conference. And I swear that guy's eyesight is 20/ten trillion.

Swofford is a secretive, i.e., sneaky, little bastard. His first Big East raid was done so much under cover of darkness it made me wonder if he also planned the Colts escape from Baltimore. I think his current problems holding the conference together can be traced directly to that raid (not entirely cause he's sure as exacerbated things since). The best acquisition in that first raid, VaTech, fell into his lap because the Virginia legislature had better sense than he did.

Given The Swoff's inability to identify quality recruits for the conference is it any wonder the football's told him to sit down and stfu when the desire to replace Maryland arose. Louisville was the small minded. The move of a tactician, not a strategist. Is that have kept them ahead of the B12 in the race to the bottom? Maybe, but so what?

To answer your question, though, Rutgers geography and flagship status is where the ACC should have been aiming. Flagship status implies the resources of the state are behind the institution. Rutgers and UConn (together with BC and Syracuse) would have left the ACC unchallenged on the entire North Atlantic coast. The northeast super region market could have better positioned the ACC to challenge the SEC on the South Atlantic coast. Would it have been a slam dunk? Of course not, but which of life's worthwhile goals are. The thing is Swoffy didn't even try, probably didn't even know TO try.

 

[billybud]

Actually, FSU and Florida are both recognized legislatively as the state's Flagship universities.

 

[billybud]

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...versity-presidents-university-chiefs-flagship

 

[upstater]

Actually, FSU and Florida are both recognized legislatively as the state's Flagship universities.

Oh oh.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Actually, FSU and Florida are both recognized legislatively as the state's Flagship universities.

Fair enough. Does that materially impact my message?

 

[woomba]

UConn was in with Syracuse in 2011. Anyway you cut it, that's 3 ahead of Rutgers, and I'd argue 4 with Louisville.

So you're saying that in a scenario where ACC needs 1 school and the pool is limited to Louisville, UConn, Rutgers, and Cincinnati you see a 0% chance that Rutgers would be chosen?

All I'm saying is that the Big Ten felt the threat was real, and seeing how Louisville ultimately got the nod and jumped UConn, I don't think it was unfounded.

 

[Exit 4]

Turning back to NYC, I really think whichever conf picks up Uconn will be in the best position to dominate college sports as best one can in this market. Put us in the ACC, then the Syr, Pitt, Uconn and yes BC combo will outduel the B1G with Rutty/PSU/MD. Put us with the B1G schools, then the advantage goes to the B1G.

Just my two cents. We are the school that can break the log jam.

 

[ctchamps]

That was what I think but was so mad at his stupidity and lack of vision I responded and shut down my computer fuming at the arrogance or stupidity of these backwater clowns (southernloss) that think Swoffy was a genius!I mean what has NC ever done "outside of cheat" in FB EVEN with Butch Davis who was sent packing but not before damaging NC's previous good reputation?Already SU's recruiting is suffering while RU's is rising and they can't figure out why the ACC card ain't helping as they thought it would!The Dougie saw the writing on the wall and fled his "dream job" knowing he would get the blame for there decline esp with Nassib who carried them going into the league!SU is trending down and thats a fact!The future is in UConn and RU in the east!

I have nothing against @SouthronCross. My suggestion is that you take a deep breath and not take his perspective personally. It's not easy when there is something we so passionately believe in and want to defend. But the moment we let our emotions into our judgements is the moment we're setting ourselves up to failure.


The ACC was different than the B!G just before this last round of realignment. It was every bit as vulnerable as the BE. Swofford was a genius if you consider that the ACC will live to see another day and the BE won't.

Swofford, like Delaney, like Marinatto or any AD have lots of power, but not unlimited power in the decision making process of their conferences. The hand Swofford was given to play with was far poorer than Delaney's and far superior to Marinatto's. So some of his choices were the result of having to deal with the dynamics of his conference and the need to find compromise with the other power brokers in the conference.

It's hard for even those on the inside to understand all the dynamics, so those of us on the outside are more likely than not to be off the mark. We have to make lots of assumptions. My take is Swofford was great at being preemptive. He got Miami, VT and BC into the ACC in an attempt to build up the football brand of the conference. He recognized foot ball was driving the market. But that move did not generate the results he had hoped for. Meanwhile the ACC (an historical basketball conference) was really becoming a two horse show in basketball and rapidly losing credibility as a basketball conference. They were a distant second to the BE and the B!G and worse of all the SEC was not far behind them or arguably equal to them. So the bb centric universities wanted to fix this and they carved out two of the better bb programs from the BE.

The first move in the more recent era was football oriented (BC, Miami, VT) the second move was bb oriented (Cuse, Pitt). Those of us on the outside are guessing that Swofford has to deal with two competing viewpoints. And those of us who observed the breakup of the BE recognize the dangers of having a strong division within a conference between bb and football centric universities. The big difference for Swofford vs. Marinatto was the monies were significantly better for the ACC than the BE, there was a discrepancy in monies paid to the members as well as the contribution to the two sports in the BE vs. the ACC. The BE had the greater wobble in its rotating tire and had a nail in it called ND.

If the division was not so strong between the football and the basketball universities within the ACC( and if Swofford was not in bed with Raycom) they could have made different decisions, decisions you and I are of the opinion would have been far better in the long run for the conference. But they were treading water and even though they were proactive in getting universities, they were reactive in trying to put out their internal fires.

The B!G was and still is the most balanced conference in that it is strong in both football and bb. Football certainly has "deteriorated" relative to the SEC and maybe the Big12 and I'm sure there is pressure to rectify this. But basketball was just as important to the conference as football and thus there was not as great a divide between the basketball centric universities (Indiana, MSU, Illinois) vs. the football centric universities (Michigan, PSU, Ohio State). Delaney didn't have to focus on appeasing these viewpoints. His focus was on expanding the eyes watching the B!G. He's primarily going to the markets where he doesn't have to compete with anyone - the northeast and mid atlantic. This helps his conference two fold. The potential for viewership for the BTN is significant and that means monies. And if viewership goes up the potential for developing recruits in the region goes up. Most of the universities in the B!G already have contacts established in the region. Playing Rutgers or Maryland won't increase those adult contacts. Playing Rutgers and Maryland, however has the potential to increase viewership in the region to the B!G brand. In turn viewership could be the future talent the B!G needs to keep their brand viable.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

B1G adding Rutgers was the ultimate defensive move after UVA, UNC, GT, and ND all told B1G to go home. Delaney realized he stepped in it piling on all the Penn St negative press after Sandusky, and with all of Penn St's traditional rivals + ND aligned with the ACC he was seriously sweating them bolting in the next 5-10 years. Combined with the need to expand B1G's recruiting beyond the Rust Belt...Rutgers became a convenient target. Note I said it was a defensive move...not necessarily a bad move. Same as ACC taking UL.

The B1G adding Rutgers was a defensive move in the same vein as Ike sending the GIs into Normandy was defensive.

 

[upstater]

So you're saying that in a scenario where ACC needs 1 school and the pool is limited to Louisville, UConn, Rutgers, and Cincinnati you see a 0% chance that Rutgers would be chosen?

All I'm saying is that the Big Ten felt the threat was real, and seeing how Louisville ultimately got the nod and jumped UConn, I don't think it was unfounded.

I think I've complemented Delany for kicking Swofford's butt, but yes, I see very little chance for Rutgers.

 

[woomba]

I think I've complemented Delany for kicking Swofford's butt, but yes, I see very little chance for Rutgers.

Haha - ok. Just agree to disagree there.

 

[billybud]

I don't think that the designation of "flagship" or "land grant" mean that much to the ACC. Good basketball and football are the driving impetus (more than just "markets") for ACC expansion.

There has been some fractionalism...FSU, Clemson, VT, Miami and, to some extent, GT...have been vocal about improving ACC football. Coach K at Duke and the UNC faithful have always been more interested in basketball. Up until about 10 years ago, basketball brought in more revenue than football and football was the ACC's second sport. When the tide started turning towards football with the media contracts, the ACC was slow to react to the change. In many ways, Clemson and FSU are more culturally attuned to the SEC than to the ACC. An FSU guy is like a SEC guy...wearing a BBQ stained Tee shirt straining across a beer gut while screaming for the football or baseball team. No chino and oxford cloth wearing biffs with sweaters artfully draped around their shoulders like you see in North Carolina.

At one time, there was a Tobacco Road cabal centered in Carolina...Wake, UNC, NC State, Duke...and they could heavily influence conference decisions. Moving to Syracuse and Pitt was a basketball driven decision (with a little ND baiting taking place as well). Clemson and FSU (along with allies Miami and VT) were adamant that steps needed to be taken to improve the football side of the conference. The football guys wanted Louisville.

The ACC was a southern-mid atlantic conference when FSU and Clemson joined. The conference had taken a decided turn to the north with the additions of BC, Syracuse, and Pitt. Louisville was not another incursion into the northeast.

Without a North-South divisional alignment, that meant that FSU would be travelling to Boston and Syracuse (and Connecticut if they were chosen over Louisville) . The very southern schools saw the ACC turning into a more "northern" centered conference. The Noles thought it wacky to travel to the northeast while not having Georgia Tech in the division. The Coastal Division guys liked the way it was and didn't want to change their country club around. Also, Charlie Strong (from the Gators) was a known and respected quantity at Louisville.

 

[ctchamps]

I don't think that the designation of "flagship" or "land grant" mean that much to the ACC. Good basketball and football are the driving impetus (more than just "markets") for ACC expansion.

There has been some fractionalism...FSU, Clemson, VT, Miami and, to some extent, GT...have been vocal about improving ACC football. Coach K at Duke and the UNC faithful have always been more interested in basketball. Up until about 10 years ago, basketball brought in more revenue than football and football was the ACC's second sport. When the tide started turning towards football with the media contracts, the ACC was slow to react to the change. In many ways, Clemson and FSU are more culturally attuned to the SEC than to the ACC. An FSU guy is like a SEC guy...wearing a BBQ stained Tee shirt straining across a beer gut while screaming for the football or baseball team. No chino and oxford cloth wearing biffs with sweaters artfully draped around their shoulders like you see in North Carolina.

At one time, there was a Tobacco Road cabal centered in Carolina...Wake, UNC, NC State, Duke...and they could heavily influence conference decisions. Moving to Syracuse and Pitt was a basketball driven decision (with a little ND baiting taking place as well). Clemson and FSU (along with allies Miami and VT) were adamant that steps needed to be taken to improve the football side of the conference. The football guys wanted Louisville.

The ACC was a southern-mid atlantic conference when FSU and Clemson joined. The conference had taken a decided turn to the north with the additions of BC, Syracuse, and Pitt. Louisville was not another incursion into the northeast.

Without a North-South divisional alignment, that meant that FSU would be travelling to Boston and Syracuse (and Connecticut if they were chosen over Louisville) . The very southern schools saw the ACC turning into a more "northern" centered conference. The Noles thought it wacky to travel to the northeast while not having Georgia Tech in the division. The Coastal Division guys liked the way it was and didn't want to change their country club around. Also, Charlie Strong (from the Gators) was a known and respected quantity at Louisville.

I agree with you the ACC was looking for better brands because the ACC was in danger of falling far behind the other power conferences and even of breaking up. It was a move based more on desperation plus the internal dynamics of two strong groups who have strongly different ideas about what direction they want to head. Getting Pitt and Cuse fixed the need of improving the bb brand but getting Rutgers and UConn would have been almost as good for the bb brand, if not as good, and the regional competion with BC, Rutgers, UConn, MD, Virginia and VT had a much better geographical footprint to develop rivalries than with Cuse and Pitt.

 

[JayRU09]

The ACC seemed to change how it expanded during each round of expansion. The first was obviously football driven with Miami, BC, and Va Tech. The second was somewhat more basketball oriented with Pitt and Cuse (decent football, basketball powers). and the last round with UL was solely to appease the football schools. As good as UL is in basketball, it was their football success that got them in.

Rutgers could have fit in somewhere during the two football expansions if they were to happen during when RU was available during the past two years or so. But they didn't, so who cares.

UL needs a fantastic coach to win and Pitt and Cuse are near useless in football now. I guess Pitt has a chance but Cuse is BC 2.0 now. The ACC is a drastically different conference now and if not for ESPN they would be on the shakiest of shaky grounds.

 

[Marty Jackson]

That is quite a pic you painted, I could hear the violins playing. Keeping with my self imposed rule of 'institutional respect" I will say for the record yet again I support a U Conn move to the A.C.C. I will also repeat that I was never a supporter of Gene D. or his politics. B.C. moved to the A.C.C. for financial reasons and to escape a conference that was clearly beginning to crack, like it or not they had the foresight to abandon a sinking ship (Thank God). Your perception is a bit twisted, as if B.C. left because the little engine that could pulled into the station.

There are five other state schools in New England and countless private institutions. B.C. has never announced or promoted itself as the "representative for New England" at any level. So this casting shadows theory is a load of c@#$. I think U Mass and the other state schools have pride and certainly do not see U Conn as THEIR representative "gateway" or any other self anointed proclamation as New England's college team.

Matter of fact, U Mass is undergoing a large infusion of funds, building new facilities, and traveling the same path as U Conn did so successfully. Yet I have read only negative comments concerning their efforts. Thats a double standard and hypocritical, since some fans accuse B.C. of displaying that very arrogance. B.C. has been here for 150 years it has thrived and will continue to do so, through good times and bad. New England has and will continue to support multiple distinguished programs from Harvard to Providence to U.N.H. and so on. I have never heard one school try to lay claim to being "THE SCHOOL" of and for New England. Until now.

I think the sentiment was stated by Gene as to why he blocked Uconn from the ACC. He was quoted as saying he wanted BC to be new england's school.
Ironically, the best thing for Uconn and BC on the national stage would be to have a regional rivalry where people could get juiced up about.

 

[adbern7]

The ACC seemed to change how it expanded during each round of expansion. The first was obviously football driven with Miami, BC, and Va Tech. The second was somewhat more basketball oriented with Pitt and Cuse (decent football, basketball powers). and the last round with UL was solely to appease the football schools. As good as UL is in basketball, it was their football success that got them in.

Rutgers could have fit in somewhere during the two football expansions if they were to happen during when RU was available during the past two years or so. But they didn't, so who cares.

UL needs a fantastic coach to win and Pitt and Cuse are near useless in football now. I guess Pitt has a chance but Cuse is BC 2.0 now. The ACC is a drastically different conference now and if not for ESPN they would be on the shakiest of shaky grounds.

I can take the UConn fans being pissed about their hard luck and winding up in a conference (for now) that's below their potential. I cannot take Rutgers fans at all. You've done NOTHING, like EVER, in mens college sports. Your crowning achievement is a shared Big East football title, and some minor bowl wins over nobody. Are you saying RU wasn't "available" in 2003 when the ACC expanded? Just stop. Be happy thanking your lucky stars that a perfect combination of AAU, Penn St unhappiness, and geography is giving you the opportunity to get paid well to have your face kicked in on the fields and courts for the next 25+ years. Stop mentioning yourselves in the same breath as Cuse, UConn, Pitt, UL, or anyone that has actual fond memories of something athletic happening. Thanks. PS - Nobody in NYC cares about you (to tie this back to the Subject here) . You've got Newark, enjoy.

 

[WestHartHusk]

I can take the UConn fans being pissed about their hard luck and winding up in a conference (for now) that's below their potential. I cannot take Rutgers fans at all. You've done NOTHING, like EVER, in mens college sports. Your crowning achievement is a shared Big East football title, and some minor bowl wins over nobody. Are you saying RU wasn't "available" in 2003 when the ACC expanded? Just stop. Be happy thanking your lucky stars that a perfect combination of AAU, Penn St unhappiness, and geography is giving you the opportunity to get paid well to have your face kicked in on the fields and courts for the next 25+ years. Stop mentioning yourselves in the same breath as Cuse, UConn, Pitt, UL, or anyone that has actual fond memories of something athletic happening. Thanks. PS - Nobody in NYC cares about you (to tie this back to the Subject here) . You've got Newark, enjoy.

Adbern, I don't know who you are or who you root for, but I like the fire in this post.

 

[upstater]

Adbern, I don't know who you are or who you root for, but I like the fire in this post.

He's a Cuse troll who is ridiculously slanted against UConn.

 

[adbern7]

Adbern, I don't know who you are or who you root for, but I like the fire in this post.

i'm a Cuse fan from NYC (did not attend there but have family who did so grew up tied to Cuse) who spent time living in GA and FL and now back in northeast. i've posted on this Board (i come here bc it still has a lively CR discussion, which is fun) that i'm generally unhappy with CR as i thought a successful BE was the ideal spot for Cuse and now we're no longer a top dog in our new digs. i've perused the FSU/Clem/Miami boards a fair bit and have a rough sense for their thoughts (a healthy ACC is better than any option for them except SEC, skeptical but open minded at new northern additions - and imploring Cuse/Pitt to be respectable in OOC games, and they completely despise WVU). ACC is going to have a real challenge with divisions as any configuration has some buried Gotcha (who knew that GT MUST be with UNC and Duke?). The old B12 is a cautionary tale of imbalanced North/South divisions. I think I'm fairly level headed about CR.
ACC will probably survive, and like any fan i'm optimistic Cuse football can return to our 80's/90's state of consistent Top 25, occasional Top 10 runs with new ACC resources and no more Greg Robinson - our coach in the 2000's who destroyed the program. I get crossed up with UConn fans on this Board who consistently downplay Cuse's pull in NYC and declare us dead and irrelevant. At least i have some respect for UConn given b-ball and that your football is so new but still competed well. Rutgers is totally useless, see last post. It sucks that at the moment this whole NYC marketing angle is causing UConn fans to seize on this "alliance" with RU as the B1G's levers into NYC. You might be in the ACC at some point after all.

 

[CTMike]

If sleeping with that dirty whore Rutgers gets us out of this clusterfAAC, then bring on Snooki! No offense, Adbern. I'd metaphorically sleep with you too if it got us in to the ACC. My commitment runs that deep.

 

[JayRU09]

BLAH BLAH BLAH I HATE RUTGERS SO NOW I'M GOING TO MISINTERPRET EVERYTHING YOU SAID.

If you read my post, you know, something you should be able to do if you went to college, you would see that I said nothing about RU being taken in 2003 and said 'if they were expanding for football reasons in the past two years before we were taken by the B1G we could have fit somewhere in their expansion plans'.

Sorry that you're BC 2.0 now. Sorry that you're recruiting is subpar now (mostly due to us). Sorry that you're not featured in any of ESPN's, ESPN 2's, or ESPN U's top rated games in the NYC metro area despite being 'New York's College Team'.

And lastly, sorry that your mascot is a god damned orange.

 

[CTMike]

I like the fight, Jay. I like the fight.

 

[JayRU09]

Look, I know where Rutgers stands in the pantheon of athletic achievement (at the bottom looking up at hopefully a bright future), and I think keeping that in mind has kept me from being a troll here. I usually talk realistically here and I hope that makes me a welcome member here. I like UConn being from CT as you all know and I want them to join us or at least figure out something. Even if it means getting ribbed a little here and there on this board

But I ain't takin' no crap from a Syracuse fan.

 

[NickyNewark]

The ACC will keep the citizens of NC and VA happy. I guess that's all that matters since half the schools are in those states.

Yes the trouble with expanding and exposure with the ACC is there viewship has too many teams condensed into VA/NC and most of the rest are either #2 in their state or scatterred helter skelter (Pitt,SU,BC) as outliers!They'll never capture the media market or get ESPin to waste money on giving them a network and always be dependent on the crumb's albeit "big crumbs" but not B1G or SEC type freedom $$!

 

[NickyNewark]

Look, I know where Rutgers stands in the pantheon of athletic achievement (at the bottom looking up at hopefully a bright future), and I think keeping that in mind has kept me from being a troll here. I usually talk realistically here and I hope that makes me a welcome member here. I like UConn being from CT as you all know and I want them to join us or at least figure out something. Even if it means getting ribbed a little here and there on this board

But I ain't takin' no crap from a Syracuse fan.

I feel the same way I'll accept some crap from some UConn fans BUT I'll be damned if some hick from down south or SU fan gets the same pass!The arrogance and jealousy of some of these overrated ACC schools thinking there superior too anybody given their atrocious BCS bowl record is hilarious!