A Little OT: An important Admission from Ariel Massengale | Page 4 | The Boneyard

A Little OT: An important Admission from Ariel Massengale

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triaddukefan said:
A NC resident reading a back and forth between fans of teams from neighboring (and inferior) States on a UCONN message board.
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Not exactly sure that's a good thing. From a UCONN perspective that is. I mean it is called The Boneyard - Uconn Women's Basketball for a reason.

I guess we need some UCONN games to get this board back into a UCONN frame of mind. :cool:
 
Beemer said:
I like seeing comments from other teams' fans. I think it helps keep things in perspective.
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We've had had comments from others teams fans on the bone yard for many years, usually commenting about UConn and or UConn against their respective team, triad and Cam being excellent examples of this.
 
meyers7 said:
IDK, they still keep score the same way.
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True, but the whole point of statistical analysis is to break down why a team is good. One gains a lot more insight into a team's defense by utilizing points per possession instead of just defensive FG% and points yielded per game. If a defense doesn't let you shoot (i.e., forcing a lot of turnovers) then that should factor into a defensive rating. If the team seldom gives up an offensive rebound, then that should count as well. For example, if a team allows an offensive rebound on a possession and then fouls the shooter (who drains both FT's), then that defense has allowed 0% shooting for the possession, but gave up points that FG% would not account for. But points per possession would value that possession the same as a team shooting the ball and it going in on the first try (i.e. 2 points scored in that possession). I already argued the value of considering a team's pace, but your favored metric (points allowed per game), ignores that. Did UConn really have a bad defensive game against Oregon last season? They did if you consider defensive PPG, but they had a great game if you consider defensive PPP (points per possession).

That's what I said. We have a different perspective on "good".
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If the top 7% is not considered good, then where is elite? Where is excellent? Where is great (or very good)? Where does average start?

And the point was that UNC is not known for their defense. i.e. people saying, "oh UNC? Yea, they're a really good defensive team." That's not what comes to mind. You think people should think that, I wouldn't necessarily agree, but either way, they don't. And further back point, DD is the same.
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No, when I think of UNC, I think of a team with a high tempo (but messy) offense, but last season their offense really wasn't that bad (even after adjusting for pace). UNC's defense was actually good last year (23rd in defensive PPP) despite the fact that so many freshman played huge minutes. That's incredible. The previous season (2012-13) they were even better (12th). They were 15th in 2011-12 and 9th in 2010-11. That doesn't seem like a bad defensive team at all.

BTW, UConn was ranked first in defensive PPP in each of the years for which I have stats available. Notre Dame was 11th (2013-14), 31st (2012-13), 3rd (2011-12) and 2nd (2010-11).

Offensively:

2013-14: UConn 1st, ND 2nd, Baylor 3rd
2012-13: UConn 1st, Baylor 2nd, ND 3rd
2011-12: Baylor 1st, UConn 2nd, ND 6th
2010-11: Baylor 1st, UConn 4th, ND 7th

What's amazing to me about these stats is that Baylor, UConn and Notre Dame had really tough schedules over most of these years but still generally put up incredible numbers. One of the weaknesses of PPP is that it has no way of accounting for schedule strength, but the cream rose to the top regardless, which says a lot about these teams.
 
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Fightin Choke said:
If the top 7% is not considered good, then where is elite? Where is excellent? Where is great (or very good)? Where does average start?
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While I agree with your points about the value of PPP I disagree that being in the top 7% is a standard for elite status.

Tenn and Georgia were in a tie at #23 with UNC. If this was men's list then "elite" might be applicable to #23 but the drop off in wcbb is very steep. Elite, to me, means, at a minimum, being 1-8. No. 23 is certainly better than most but that "most" is pretty pathetic when compared to teams like Notre Dame for example.

An elite team should be closer to the No 1 team than the No 100 team.

1. UConn 0.67 PPP

23. UNC 0.83PPP

The difference is 0.16. An equal difference in the opposite direction is 0.99 PPP which is No. 303 Texas Tech's defensive PPP rating.

Even if we ignore the elite defense of UConn, the next major conference team is Arkansas at 0.78, or a difference of 0.05 with UNC. An equal difference in the opposite direction (0.88) gives us No. 79 USC (et al).

If a team's defense is to considered elite, it should perform at a level closer to the top team than the bottom teams.

Link to PPP stats: http://www.wbbstate.com/stats/teamD/DRating/_/0

And for the record I think UNC will be a FF contender this year.
 
Alydar said:
While I agree with your points about the value of PPP I disagree that being in the top 7% is a standard for elite status.
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Oh, no, you misunderstood my post. When I initially referred to UNC's defense as "good" (LINK), Meyers disagreed, arguing they were not good (see post #65, just 3 below my linked post). I never claimed UNC had an elite defense, or even a very good defense. All I said was they were good.

Because Meyers didn't consider the top 7% good, I was asking him where the cutoffs were for different levels of performance (e.g., elite is the top 1%, 2-3% is very good 4-6% good, 7% is average, etc.)
 
Fightin Choke said:
So if you believe that 23rd out of 347 is average, then 6.5% is above average and 93.5% is below average. Thank God you were never taught statistics by me!
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Lies, damned lies and statistics.

I know good, when I see it. Don't need lies, damned lies or statistics.

Like I said your standards are just lower than mine (and UCONN fans in general). Understandable with who you support. ;) Heck you guys made a wonderful celebratory video...about coming in second. :D
 
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AnotherVolFan said:
I love you Fightin Choke....don't let anyone here discourage your opinions cause I love what you bring to this board!
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I don't think anyone is discouraging Choke's opinion. We just have a differing one. That's allowed.
 
Enjoyed the thread. It comes down to the brilliance of coaching, and we have Geno and no one else does. As long as that's the case we'll be in this fight for top dawg every year. These are the golden years of UCONN basketball, and we fans should be and are grateful and enjoying the ride. Of course it will end sometime, everything does. But for now, what a great great time to be blue.
 
meyers7 said:
I don't think anyone is discouraging Choke's opinion. We just have a differing one. That's allowed.
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I didn't say anyone did, I said don't let it happen. It can and has happened here before. Especially when discussing other players of teams besides UCONN, which is understandable to a CERTAIN degree, being this is a UCONN board. But hey...I love it for everything its worth!
 
AnotherVolFan said:
I didn't say anyone did, I said don't let it happen. It can and has happened here before. Especially when discussing other players of teams besides UCONN, which is understandable to a CERTAIN degree, being this is a UCONN board. But hey...I love it for everything its worth!
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Thanks for the advice. Probably not really needed.
 
AnotherVolFan said:
I love you Fightin Choke....don't let anyone here discourage your opinions cause I love what you bring to this board!
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AnotherVolFan said:
I didn't say anyone did, I said don't let it happen. It can and has happened here before. Especially when discussing other players of teams besides UCONN, which is understandable to a CERTAIN degree, being this is a UCONN board. But hey...I love it for everything its worth!
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http://huskynan.com/boneyardrules

"We UConn fans like our players and team better than anyone else's and we don't have to be objective if we choose not to be. You can't force us to like your players, team, coach, whatever by endlessly cataloging their merits. There are objective people here who will discuss other teams in a positive light but there are other UConn fans who don't want to hear anything about other teams and that's OK. This is a UConn board for all kinds of UConn fans, objective and non-objective alike."

As I said before. We have had a number of guest posters, fans from other schools who have been posting for years. They don't appear to have any trouble remembering that this is a UConn board.

Nuff said
 
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For me the endless material and discussion of numerous other teams has taken the joy out of the board for me. The absense of others like OC, South, Lasert, etc., who brought real insight and thought to what we have shared are things I deeply miss. As I said there is little joy here anymore and I fear the board is dying for me.
 
Icebear said:
For me the endless material and discussion of numerous other teams has taken the joy out of the board for me. The absense of others like OC, South, Lasert, etc., who brought real insight and thought to what we have shared are things I deeply miss. As I said there is little joy here anymore and I fear the board is dying for me.
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That would be terrible. Keep your fuzzy ears above water. We need you!!
 
This has been a fine thread but is now, for a few people, taking a grumpy turn, complete with touches of xenophobia, faint resentment thereof, and nostalgia for dead people.

My view is a little different. I've never seen such an array of excellent posts, especially for the off season.

The recruiting analyses (including vowelguy's color-coded works of art), the outstanding threads on the WNBA playoffs, the great coverage of the FIBA Worlds, including by eyewitnesses, have been terrific.

The regular visiting posters contribute a lot, IMO, and add to what I think is a uniquely cosmopolitan board for one with a primary focus on a specific team.

We have plenty of UConn-centrism now and obviously will have a surge of it when the season begins. If there's not enough of it for some people, they're free to write more of it.

They're also free to skim and/or ignore the rest. If they feel burdened by being forced (which they aren't) to read a broader array of views, well, that's unfortunate for them.

For each who feels the board isn't sufficiently confined to partisan discussion, there's another who holds a counter-view -- that reactions here to, e.g. recruiting successes by other teams, are overly partisan and inclined to discount the existence of quality programs elsewhere.

And then there's the happy medium. I'm not a medium, mind you, but am personally quite happy with how the board is now and where it's headed. Haven't taken a poll, but the exceptional activity level here would suggest I'm not alone.
 
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JS said:
We have plenty of UConn-centrism now and obviously will have a surge of it when the season begins. If there's not enough of it for some people, they're free to write more of it.

They're also free to skim and/or ignore the rest. If they feel burdened by being forced (which they aren't) to read a broader array of views, well, that's unfortunate for them.

For each who feels the board isn't sufficiently confined to partisan discussion, there's another who holds a counter-view -- that reactions here to, e.g. recruiting successes by other teams, are overly partisan and inclined to discount the existence of quality programs elsewhere.

And then there's the happy medium. I'm not a medium, mind you, but am personally quite happy with how the board is now and where it's headed. Haven't taken a poll, but the exceptional activity level here would suggest I'm not alone.
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images
upload_2014-10-12_1-5-43.jpeg
 
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JS said:
This has been a fine thread but is now, for a few people, taking a grumpy turn, complete with touches of xenophobia, faint resentment thereof, and nostalgia for dead people.

My view is a little different. I've never seen such an array of excellent posts, especially for the off season.

The recruiting analyses (including vowelguy's color-coded works of art), the outstanding threads on the WNBA playoffs, the great coverage of the FIBA Worlds, including by eyewitnesses, have been terrific.

The regular visiting posters contribute a lot, IMO, and add to what I think is a uniquely cosmopolitan board for one with a primary focus on a specific team.

We have plenty of UConn-centrism now and obviously will have a surge of it when the season begins. If there's not enough of it for some people, they're free to write more of it.

They're also free to skim and/or ignore the rest. If they feel burdened by being forced (which they aren't) to read a broader array of views, well, that's unfortunate for them.

For each who feels the board isn't sufficiently confined to partisan discussion, there's another who holds a counter-view -- that reactions here to, e.g. recruiting successes by other teams, are overly partisan and inclined to discount the existence of quality programs elsewhere.

And then there's the happy medium. I'm not a medium, mind you, but am personally quite happy with how the board is now and where it's headed. Haven't taken a poll, but the exceptional activity level here would suggest I'm not alone.
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Amen JS. The diversity on this board nowadays is not only tolerated, but encouraged (by most, and we tolerate the intolerant too). This hasn't always been the case, in my experience. Also in my experience, diversity ALWAYS improves quality, whether it's a management team, highly-focused project team (like a sports team), or just a discussion (like this).

BY is becoming a kinda cool place to hang out for more than just die-hard UCONN homers. (It's probably mostly the ultra-cool die-hard UCONN homers that make it this way, but maybe the diversity has a little bit to do with it too :cool:
 
The board is what it is. And that is fine. JS gave a fair description my point was only that I personally find no joy here anymore, not that others should or shouldn't. It is the reason, however, my posting has virtually dried up. OC, Warren, was a very good friend and to my wife's chagrin we could talk for a couple of hours post game on a variety of subjects from the game, to ski equipment, Burke Mountain Academy, or Warren's current pet project. His stroke and rehab and his passing were a real loss to me as well to the many others whose lives he touched in and around sports.

On top of that from last November on I was dealing 5 individuals 52 and under all fighting terminal prognosis ranging from severe vascular disease to ALS to cancers. Only one is still alive, a thirty-four year old single mom with two kids battling skin melanoma who travels for treatment out of country for wholistic treatments because she has stopped chemo for more good days with her kids than bad ones. She is a well educated nurse and understands the choices she has made. I saw her Thursday and she ran up to me and gave me a big hug with an energy she hasn't had in a year. She's back to work two days a week. Whatever the number of her days she has the two most important things in her life, her work and her kids and feels good enough in the moment to enjoy them and her numerous friends. She is filled with joy because they define her and she has come love that.

Most of this has been brewing since the events in Boston two years ago at the marathon. In the chaos early in the event I posted a segment of St. Patrick's Shield a historical prayer of guardianship. I posted it,specifically, because of the great number of Irish cops, fire fighters and EMS folks who were in the midst of the events that still were filled with peril. Irish has always been synonymous with Boston despite the multicultural reality of the city. Unfortunately, the rhythm of the piece repeats Christ again and again. I chose it for the context. It offended some and I was told by a moderator not offer any prayers or religious comments anymore. I asked what that meant so I could meet expectations but no one could define what was and wasn't appropriate. JS was very helpful and encouraging but the problem is it made me second guess everything I say or write because I see the world through spiritual lens, ones that others may not see. It is just part of how many of us as pastors are wired.

Trying to turn the lens on and off is not effective for me. I end up second guessing much of what I write or should write and don't feel free to respond to requests for prayers like ABach's because in the past I would often write a brief prayer. Certainly, nothing long but more than the cursory, "Your in my thoughts and prayers." Many expressed thanks for the effort involved.

Essentially, I felt I could no longer just "be me." That, too, robbed joy from my participation. I could no longer just "be" I felt obligated to "be other."

In all this the board is what it is and that is as it should be. JS likes it and that is good and as it should be. But for me it isn't working and what was once a place where I regained my balance and let down my guard a bit no longer works that way. It is time to check out that road not taken and see if there is new joy.

I'll still be around and reading but to the benefit of all of you you will much less to read. God bless.
 
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Icebear said:
The board is what it is. And that is fine. JS gave a fair description my point was only that I personally find no joy here anymore, not that others should or shouldn't. It is the reason, however, my posting has virtually dried up. OC, Warren, was a very good friend and to my wife's chagrin we could talk for a couple of hours post game on a variety of subjects from the game, to ski equipment, Burke Mountain Academy, or Warren's current pet project. His stroke and rehab and his passing were a real loss to me as well to the many others whose lives he touched in and around sports.

On top of that from last November on I was dealing 5 individuals 52 and under all fighting terminal prognosis ranging from severe vascular disease to ALS to cancers. Only one is still alive, a thirty-four year old single mom with two kids battling skin melanoma who travels for treatment out of country for wholistic treatments because she has stopped chemo for more good days with her kids than bad ones. She is a well educated nurse and understands the choices she has made. I saw her Thursday and she ran up to me and gave me a big hug with an energy she hasn't had in a year. She's back to work two days a week. Whatever the number of her days she has the two most important things in her life, her work and her kids and feels good enough in the moment to enjoy them and her numerous friends. She is filled with joy because they define her and she has come love that.

Most of this has been brewing since the events in Boston two years ago at the marathon. In the chaos early in the event I posted a segment of St. Patrick's Shield a historical prayer of guardianship. I posted it,specifically, because of the great number of Irish cops, fire fighters and EMS folks who were in the midst of the events that still were filled with peril. Irish has always been synonymous with Boston despite the multicultural reality of the city. Unfortunately, the rhythm of the piece repeats Christ again and again. I chose it for the context. It offended some and I was told by a moderator not offer any prayers or religious comments anymore. I asked what that meant so I could meet expectations but no one could define what was and wasn't appropriate. JS was very helpful and encouraging but the problem is it made me second guess everything I say or write because I see the world through spiritual lens, ones that others may not see. It is just part of how many of us as pastors are wired.

Trying to turn the lens on and off is not effective for me. I end up second guessing much of what I write or should write and don't feel free to respond to requests for prayers like ABach's because in the past I would often write a brief prayer. Certainly, nothing long but more than the cursory, "Your in my thoughts and prayers." Many expressed thanks for the effort involved.

Essentially, I felt I could no longer just "be me." That, too, robbed joy from my participation. I could no longer just "be" I felt obligated to "be other."

In all this the board is what it is and that is as it should be. JS likes it and that is good and as it should be. But for me it isn't working and what was once a place where I regained my balance and let down my guard a bit no longer works that way. It is time to check out that road not taken and see if there is new joy.

I'll still be around and reading but to the benefit of all of you you will much less to read. God bless.
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Icebear, you are a very knowledgeable poster and you will be missed. Take care friend.
 
Ice, maybe now you have that off your chest will feel better about the board. Are you sure we can't offer brief prayers on this board? I didn't know that.

Anyway, think of what a GREAT season this is going to be, so interesting, and so much fun to study and analyze. It is such a wholesome distraction from the difficulties of life. I can't believe we get to see who plays the 2- guard, game after game, and so many other fascinating mysteries to be solved by Geno & Co. Not kidding...this is great stuff.
 
No ice, dobbs, doggydaddy..... it's Boneyard light. No chance of having a sub forum for other teams?
 
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