Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[upstater]

Holy **** upstater please.

Do you believe for a second after that girl was raped and murdered in her dorm room in 1986 in Pennsylvania at Lehigh, that Joe Paterno wasn't fully aware of the Clery Act?

THe very fact that anyone at that university, especially that four people involved right now in this coverup discussion the four most powerful with regards to that football program had the instinct to go to Sandusky at all, was because no one at that university every felt the need that compliance and training in reporting crimes was necessary at a university in State College.

In a case like this - the very LAST thing you do, is inform the pedophile that you are aware of his activity AND with a specific child? That kid's life was in immediate danger, and I will bow down and thank God on my knees if he is ever found alive.

Had Joe Paterno, ever felt the need that the people in his program be trained in properly reporting crimes, even though he knew he had a potential serial child rapist in the office next door to him, this could all have been stopped.

It wasn't until after 2007, that crime reporting compliance for Clery went into effect at Penn STate, and about the same time, that was when Sandusky finally started getting the law enforcement attention he should have had so long ago.

It was all because the power of the football program was absolute.

It's disgusting, how penn state people, continue to show so little regard for the children.

the fact that the statue of Joe Paterno is topic of discussion at all? It should be gone right now, without a word, and Penn State should be building the largest child care and abuse preventions center in the world.

WIthout having to be asked.

Stop deflecting. What you wrote is totally different than what the Exhibit I mentioned shows. You're the one who claimed I was wrong about the fact that Paterno and Spanier came to an agreement about how to proceed. Yet I showed you the exact exhibit that proves I was right.

You continue to ignore.

 

[UCFBfan]

I think upstater and Carl need their own thread! As soon as they jump on the thread it grows by 3 pages in minutes! Lol

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[CL82]

They should just ad a little Calvin statue peeing on his foot.

Somehow a kid with pants open might not be the right statement.

 

[Waquoit]

But, rather than worry about the statue, what do you think is going to happen with the multiple Chairs that Paterno endowed? Or even the Paterno Library? Like it or not, he left his mark on that university. It's an interesting question, because these Chairs and the Library cannot be renamed without the university returning all that money. The school doesn't get to just keep the Paterno money.
.

Okay, so this issue is about the money! If they leave his name on the library they are saying that they, like the library's benefactor, don't really have a problem with child molestation. Especially if it might cost them money.

Nova did the right thing and took DuPont's name off their gym. Of course, that was no thanks to Gene DeFilippo. At the time he said, " what other name would you name it?''

 

[phillionaire]

I wonder if the Germans worried about how much money it would take to erase Hitler from German institutions?

PSU shouldn't be worried about money right now. Just getting rid of the pedofile enabler.

Only took two pages for Hitler to get brought up haha

 

[CL82]

Yeah, but, the Germans under Hitler also burned books and libraries. Get rid of professors and libraries?

Wow, upstater. That's a little silly isn't it. Support continuing a shine to a pedophile enabler or you are a book burner?

 

[OkaForPrez]

I say build a statue of a bronze child off to the side by himself, and let it stand as a reminder of the need to find your voice when situation demands it, no matter the consequences.

 

[CL82]

I think this is naive. If you read the report, it's clear that Spanier and Schultz were already predisposed toward the strategy they took. The emails prior to the Curley-Paterno meeting showed that they were wavering as to whether it was a really good idea to alert authorities. After Curley talked to Paterno, they immediately agreed and even went beyond that by, 1, saying the new course was reasonable, 2, "humane" treatment of Sandusky, 3, they mentioned the cost/benefit of liabilities, and 4, never once mentioned the victims. If I were to weigh fault, I would put it on Paterno/Spanier. Schultz was semi-retired (it was his last month on the job) and should have spoken up. Curley really was Paterno's minion.

Bold text is the key here. Joe Pa pushed the group from reporting a pedophile into not reporting it.

If you are buying the "more humane" BS, then I think you are being naive. That is spin, whether due their own cognitive dissonance over leaving Sandusky out there to prey upon innocents, or some modicum of caution in a written communication. This was always about maintaining the university's, and Joe Pa's, reputation. It was more important than children's well being. Shameful. Just shameful.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Bold text is the key here. Joe Pa pushed the group from reporting a pedophile into not reporting it.

If you are buying the "more humane" BS, then I think you are being naive. That is spin, whether due their own cognitive dissonance over leaving Sandusky out there to prey upon innocents, or some modicum of caution in a written communication. This was always about maintaining the university's, and Joe Pa's, reputation. It was more important that children's well being. Shameful. Just shameful.

I don't know how hard this is to understand?

 

[CL82]

I say build a statue of a bronze child off to the side by himself, and let it stand as a reminder of the need to find your voice when situation demands it, no matter the consequences.

It would never happen but a statue of small sad child with the Joe Pa statue pointing and leading the charge in the other direction would be incredibly appropriate.

Title it "Looking the other way at Penn State."

 

[CL82]

Good article advocating for the death penalty

LINK

 

[upstater]

Bold text is the key here. Joe Pa pushed the group from reporting a pedophile into not reporting it.

If you are buying the "more humane" BS, then I think you are being naive. That is spin, whether due their own cognitive dissonance over leaving Sandusky out there to prey upon innocents, or some modicum of caution in a written communication. This was always about maintaining the university's, and Joe Pa's, reputation. It was more important than children's well being. Shameful. Just shameful.

Did you read the handwritten note on 2/12/01? This is Schultz and Spanier.

"--Talked with TMC.
--Reviewed the 1998 history.
--Agreed TMC will meet with JVP and advise.
--We think TMC will meet w/ JS on Friday
--Unless he confesses to having a problem, TMC will indicate that we need to have DPW review the matter as an independent agency concerned with child welfare.
--TMC will keep me posted."

By making this solely about football, you guys are letting the administrative culture which weighs cost-benefits and liabilities off the hook. Spanier has a pattern and record of covering up child abuse dealing with non-football matters (a professor in one instance). Indeed, do you know whol else Schultz and Curley spoke to about Sandusky prior to Schultz and Spanier's note? He spoke to Wendell Courtney and university lawyers, who all signed off on this way of proceeding. As I said earlier, football should be punished. But I've seen only one article out there (in SALON) that managed to read the report and draw conclusions in proper context that holds Spanier equally liable. I think the Freeh leaks, which didn't include Schultz's handwritten note of 2/12/01, set the stage for all of this. And the emphasis is off Spanier who claims that together with attorney Cyndi Baldwin kept the BOT apprised. Spanier is not only unindicted but is still a PSU employee.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I heard a good point on the radio last night. If they give PSU the death penalty, numerous other sports at PSU will be harshly affected, since many of the non-revenue sports survive on the money football makes. So if football is gone for a year, it could mean the temporary or permanent axing of many teams who had absolutely nothing to do with this. It could also lead to potential tuition increases since there would be less money coming into the university, which would in turn affect taxpayers in the state of PA (wasn't an issue with SMU of course) and force students to pay more. The overarching point was, this is a matter best handled by the criminal courts, not the NCAA courts. This report more or less confirms all of the major players will be put on trial and most if not all will likely go to jail for one reason or another. I'm not sure a death penalty, based on the facts we know now, really accomplishes too much other than making the public happy. Those who were involved will be punished criminally, as they should.

 

[upstater]

Okay, so this issue is about the money! If they leave his name on the library they are saying that they, like the library's benefactor, don't really have a problem with child molestation. Especially if it might cost them money.

Nova did the right thing and took DuPont's name off their gym. Of course, that was no thanks to Gene DeFilippo. At the time he said, " what other name would you name it?''

Losing a gym doesn't hurt the educational priorities of a school. Losing world-renowned educators who occupy the Paterno chairs would. Libraries are more important than gyms as well.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I heard a good point on the radio last night. If they give PSU the death penalty, numerous other sports at PSU will be harshly affected, since many of the non-revenue sports survive on the money football makes. So if football is gone for a year, it could mean the temporary or permanent axing of many teams who had absolutely nothing to do with this. It could also lead to potential tuition increases since there would be less money coming into the university, which would in turn affect taxpayers in the state of PA (wasn't an issue with SMU of course) and force students to pay more. The overarching point was, this is a matter best handled by the criminal courts, not the NCAA courts. This report more or less confirms all of the major players will be put on trial and most if not all will likely go to jail for one reason or another. I'm not sure a death penalty, based on the facts we know now, really accomplishes too much other than making the public happy. Those who were involved will be punished criminally, as they should.

There is always collateral damage, when the choice of course of action is to inflict damage to create change in a culture. That is why it is a decision that cannot be taken without extreme deliberation, and why the NCAA ducked up royally with SMU in 1987. It's why going to war in aggressive posture, for the U.S., has the process it's supposed to go through, on paper, before you open up the arsenals on an attack. It's why after 9/11, some sketchy things had to happen, to put the U.S. military into an aggressive posture.

The shut down of the PSU football program, for failure to main institutional control and ethics, is most definitely warranted in this case from the NCAA. The collateral damage risk to the institution, is not enough to stop it. And seriously, if shutting down the footblal program for a a year at PSU has SUCH and effect to harm the university? Isn't that evidence enough that the problem - is the football program?

The case of failure to maintain institutional control and ethics is too greivous.

 

[upstater]

I heard a good point on the radio last night. If they give PSU the death penalty, numerous other sports at PSU will be harshly affected, since many of the non-revenue sports survive on the money football makes. So if football is gone for a year, it could mean the temporary or permanent axing of many teams who had absolutely nothing to do with this. It could also lead to potential tuition increases since there would be less money coming into the university, which would in turn affect taxpayers in the state of PA (wasn't an issue with SMU of course) and force students to pay more. The overarching point was, this is a matter best handled by the criminal courts, not the NCAA courts. This report more or less confirms all of the major players will be put on trial and most if not all will likely go to jail for one reason or another. I'm not sure a death penalty, based on the facts we know now, really accomplishes too much other than making the public happy. Those who were involved will be punished criminally, as they should.

Whoever was talking about that on radio had it half right. It will impact the athletic department but the money lost to the academic side is small and negligible. Shutting down football won't lead to tuition increases. What will lead to tuition increases is paying civil damages--unless they figure out a way to siphon money from football to pay for the damages.

 

[Carl Spackler]

It was revived through violence. Here, we have the media (and the public) going haywire over this scandal. But at the same time, our military helped revive the same behavior over there. It's all completely backwards. I am sure Freeh knows. Alfred Kinsey was mentioned before. He performed sexual experiments on kids at IU. And now he has an institute named after him at IU.

I really don't think PSU will get the death penalty. Time to move on. Let the civil lawsuits settle the issue.

Agreed. THe choice to use force and violence to create change in another culture, is the most difficult choice, there can be. There are always unitended consequences and collateral damage. BUt it does not change the fact, that there are times, when violence, is the only way.

Hitler.

 

[upstater]

I don't know how hard this is to understand?

Jimmy, the discussion isn't about the shameful behavior. We all agree there. It's about what happened between Paterno and the administrators.

 

[upstater]

Wow, upstater. That's a little silly isn't it. Support continuing a shine to a pedophile enabler or you are a book burner?

I'm not the one who brought up Hitler. But yes, I don't see why the professors should pay for this. The Joe Paterno chair in fact wrote a very poignant opinion piece on just this issue in the NY Times. Those chairs aren't easy to come by. To pay someone $125k a year, you need $5 million. The university isn't about to increase the amount it has invested in a department by that much just to make a senior hire. Ain't gonna happen. Not these days. Not to mention what's happening to university libraries all over the country. And university presses. If you really think that's really a bad analogy you're mistaken. LSU and Missouri just got rid of their libraries that sponsored presses, and this basically means a whole selection of American history and literature is now out of print. Cal-Berkeley too. Meanwhile, PSU is still printing.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Jimmy, the discussion isn't about the shameful behavior. We all agree there. It's about what happened between Paterno and the administrators.

Yes, I know. And honestly, my head hurts from these last 2 days.

Question for you since you were there for a while......what is your feeling on the current prez and AD in place now? I don't know how PSU didn't go outside of PSU for these hires. They have to go, no?

 

[Adios]

There are always unitended consequences and collateral damage.

You're missing the fact that the government installed by the US doesn't fight this "dancing boys" culture. Whatever the deal, welcome to earth, people. Money talks, BS walks.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Carl, I think you are sweeping the systematic problems in PSU's administration under the rug by overemphasizing the football aspect.

This is most definitely where we're butting heads. Shutting down the football program for a year, I think, will make the entire culture of Penn State go into an uproar, and guarantee the complete restructuring of the administration. MY opinion.

My interpretation of you, is that you think they'll be able to get things right over there, fix all those systematic problems, on their own, without any external influence. I disagree, and the statement from the BOT rep yesterday after their meetings all day, talking about really needing to decide how to handle Joe Paterno's image?

Come on man. ( in my best Keyshawn voice)

 

[Carl Spackler]

You're missing the fact that the government installed by the US doesn't fight this "dancing boys" culture. Whatever the deal, welcome to earth, people. Money talks, BS walks.

Not a politician Butchy, never was, never will be. I have no answers. War is extension of politics. The purpose of battle is to win. The rest is for politicians to figure out, and that's where the mess in Afghanistan is right now.

 

[upstater]

Yes, I know. And honestly, my head hurts from these last 2 days.

Question for you since you were there for a while......what is your feeling on the current prez and AD in place now? I don't know how PSU didn't go outside of PSU for these hires. They have to go, no?

They are interim. The current AD was a well-heeled corporate CEO on the BOT, who knows next to nothing about sports (well, I made that up). The President is interim and comes from the ranks of upper-level administrators who are normally culled from faculty all over America. So, it's no surprise that Erickson is a PSU person. People in those positions rise from the faculty ranks all over America. It's only the top two positions (Provost and President) where national searches are conducted. I'm assuming they will be in the future.

In reading the letters in Freeh's exhibits, I noticed Erickson was against naming Sandusky emeritus. But he and Rpbert Secor (who I have met in the past) found that it was the president's prerogative to do so and that PSU presidents had done so in the past with people of Sandusky's rank. It was highly unusual however.

I think Spanier definitely has to go, but (this is pure conjecture) I also believe there is a little bit of blackmail going on. Here is Spanier, still unindicted, still holding his tenured professorship, still earning money from PSU as is his wife, and yet he is seemingly untouchable. I want to see the BOT get some nuts and fire him. But I find it curious that there was so much deflection in the leaks. As long as there is no public outcry and the matter can rest on the Freeh report, I don't believe there will ever be anything that sees the BOT move against Spanier. Too much history there, too many secrets.

There is a good possibility though that the Curley/Schultz trial will shake things up so much that Spanier is indicted, and thus the rug will be pulled from under the entire administrative structure. At that point, some of the Freeh report might backfire on both Freeh and the BOT.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still.

 

[Carl Spackler]

They are interim. The current AD was a well-heeled corporate CEO on the BOT, who knows next to nothing about sports (well, I made that up). The President is interim and comes from the ranks of upper-level administrators who are normally culled from faculty all over America. So, it's no surprise that Erickson is a PSU person. People in those positions rise from the faculty ranks all over America. It's only the top two positions (Provost and President) where national searches are conducted. I'm assuming they will be in the future.

In reading the letters in Freeh's exhibits, I noticed Erickson was against naming Sandusky emeritus. But he and Rpbert Secor (who I have met in the past) found that it was the president's prerogative to do so and that PSU presidents had done so in the past with people of Sandusky's rank. It was highly unusual however.

I think Spanier definitely has to go, but (this is pure conjecture) I also believe there is a little bit of blackmail going on. Here is Spanier, still unindicted, still holding his tenured professorship, still earning money from PSU as is his wife, and yet he is seemingly untouchable. I want to see the BOT get some nuts and fire him. But I find it curious that there was so much deflection in the leaks. As long as there is no public outcry and the matter can rest on the Freeh report, I don't believe there will ever be anything that sees the BOT move against Spanier. Too much history there, too many secrets.

There is a good possibility though that the Curley/Schultz trial will shake things up so much that Spanier is indicted, and thus the rug will be pulled from under the entire administrative structure. At that point, some of the Freeh report might backfire on both Freeh and the BOT.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still.

Sooner or later, you'll realize, that the only way to create the change you want to see here, is not through peaceful manner, but to hit the penn state culture, as hard as you possibly can, where it hurts the most and inflicts the most damage.

 

[Adios]

Not a politician Butchy, never was, never will be. I have no answers. War is extension of politics. The purpose of battle is to win. The rest is for politicians to figure out, and that's where the mess in Afghanistan is right now.

If politicians cared so much about kids being abused, the other three administrators other than Paterno (since he is dead) would be in jail right now. Anyhow, enough of me.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

They are interim. The current AD was a well-heeled corporate CEO on the BOT, who knows next to nothing about sports (well, I made that up). The President is interim and comes from the ranks of upper-level administrators who are normally culled from faculty all over America. So, it's no surprise that Erickson is a PSU person. People in those positions rise from the faculty ranks all over America. It's only the top two positions (Provost and President) where national searches are conducted. I'm assuming they will be in the future.

In reading the letters in Freeh's exhibits, I noticed Erickson was against naming Sandusky emeritus. But he and Rpbert Secor (who I have met in the past) found that it was the president's prerogative to do so and that PSU presidents had done so in the past with people of Sandusky's rank. It was highly unusual however.

I think Spanier definitely has to go, but (this is pure conjecture) I also believe there is a little bit of blackmail going on. Here is Spanier, still unindicted, still holding his tenured professorship, still earning money from PSU as is his wife, and yet he is seemingly untouchable. I want to see the BOT get some nuts and fire him. But I find it curious that there was so much deflection in the leaks. As long as there is no public outcry and the matter can rest on the Freeh report, I don't believe there will ever be anything that sees the BOT move against Spanier. Too much history there, too many secrets.

There is a good possibility though that the Curley/Schultz trial will shake things up so much that Spanier is indicted, and thus the rug will be pulled from under the entire administrative structure. At that point, some of the Freeh report might backfire on both Freeh and the BOT.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still.

I'm pretty sure Erickson had the interim tag removed a few weeks after he was named interim president.

 

[upstater]

This is most definitely where we're butting heads. Shutting down the football program for a year, I think, will make the entire culture of Penn State go into an uproar, and guarantee the complete restructuring of the administration. MY opinion.

I'm for shutting it down. You wildly overestimate things however. I don't think you know how inbred and embedded things are. Read Michael Berube's article in the NYT (it';s the only one who wrote) to realize the stakes are much bigger than football.

Realize that PSU gets 4% of budget support from the state, that there is a proposed 50% cut in the works, that Spanier and PSU have fended off a hundred million dollar shale gas institute, that there have been fight-to-the-death political battles over these issues between the educators and the BOT, that whole institutions such as PSU-Altoona have been threatened with shutdown. You think football is going to change a many billions of dollar problem with repercussions into political and business spheres throughout the state. I disagree.

My interpretation of you, is that you think they'll be able to get things right over there, fix all those systematic problems, on their own, without any external influence. I disagree, and the statement from the BOT rep yesterday after their meetings all day, talking about really needing to decide how to handle Joe Paterno's image?

Uh, no. I don't think they'll be able to fix it. I think there is going to be a massive fight. The fact is, because of the kind of secrecy that comes into play when you weigh criminal allegations against worker's rights, there is always going to be a hushed approach to criminal matters. The only question is, how wide is the circuit and who has oversight? The BOT or the faculty? How much input do the lawyers have? I have said this to you repeatedly but it wasn't only Paterno who made the call, but Spanier, and his lawyers, and even a medical doctor who was a mandatory reporter. Clearly, we need people who are not so interested in the university's liabilities involved (the doctor is the only one who doesn't fit the profile of people concerned with the university's bottom line). I think there is huge potential is having a power-sharing arrangement go awry here, but I think the way things have gone, if they make this solely into a football issue (which I do not believe it is as I stated time and time again, esp. given Spanier's pattern of behavior with previous incidents of child abuse), then the pressure to have oversight conducted by more impartial members of the community will dissipate. And you may get something even worse than what you started with.

The only good part of this so far is that all university employees are required to report allegations of child abuse to police immediately, no matter how much craziness that might entail in terms of worker rights. That much is clear. As to how the university then handles such matters, that's totally up in the air.

 

[upstater]

Sooner or later, you'll realize, that the only way to create the change you want to see here, is not through peaceful manner, but to hit the penn state culture, as hard as you possibly can, where it hurts the most and inflicts the most damage.

I really think you're way off on this. There are so much bigger issues than football, but because you're discussing this on a college sports board, your view is skewed.

 

[Waquoit]

Losing a gym doesn't hurt the educational priorities of a school. Losing world-renowned educators who occupy the Paterno chairs would. Libraries are more important than gyms as well.

. If you really think that's really a bad analogy you're mistaken. LSU and Missouri just got rid of their libraries that sponsored presses, and this basically means a whole selection of American history and literature is now out of print. Cal-Berkeley too. Meanwhile, PSU is still printing.

You should just change your name to Roddy Piper, whenever someone gives you an answer, you just change the question.

Taking Paterno's name off the library doesn't make it disappear. I guess you're saying it would mean the Paterno family would want some money back making it a money thing. And I'm dubious about the true effect of " losing world-renowned educators". What "world-renowned educator" would want to sit in chair endowed by someone associated with child abuse anyway?

I do feel badly about that whole selection of American history and literature that is now out of print. I sure hope they have scanners.

But because I care, I have a piece of advice for you, up. Take a week off, go on a Boneyard fast. I will do you a world of good. You are clearly losing your marbles.